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PlasticCraic

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Posts posted by PlasticCraic

    AoS 2 - Bonesplitterz Discussion

    in Destruction

    Posted

    I'm not sure if it works as well at 1000 points tbh...but maybe something like this in Icebone:

    Wurggog - Master of Magic, Glowin Tattooz (warcry spell)

    Wurggog (rend spell)

    Wardokk (+1 to hit spell)

    Boarboys

    Boarboys

    Morboys

    Morboys

    That's 89 Wounds and 970 points.  I'd probably take the Battleshock triumph and put it in a one-drop.  

    It's a lot of points in heroes though - the army ends up looking a bit lightweight.  Dropping the Wardokk wouldn't add much: it only gives you 110 points to play with, so you might as well have access to the save stacking when you use your Wurrgogs to stare.

    Whaddya reckon?  What would you change?

     

    AoS 2 - Bonesplitterz Discussion

    in Destruction

    Posted

    Yeah we've been kicking around Wurrgog spam lists in the Bonesplitterz Whatsapp group too.  One guy (Will) has committed to taking an army with 6 of them to an event, so he played a practice game last night.

    Turn one, he stared off a Mercenary Gatebreaker, a Wight King and 20 Grave Guard.

    Turn two, his opponent conceded!

    It was a dream matchup - a melee army that comes straight towards you - but it did make me chuckle.

    I've got 4 in the list I'm writing right now 🙂

    • Like 1

    Bonesplitters are brilliant now and the maths that show it.

    in Destruction

    Posted

    Also @Magnus The Blue just wanted to say thanks for the topic, it's a good discussion to have. 

    I'm not trying to dismiss your analysis blindly and I can see a lot of work went into it - just wanted to add another perspective to the discussion that I also think it important.

    Stats x Delivery Mechanism = Success

    I think where my own head is at is that the former has had a big lift, the latter has had a big drop and we'll need to put it on the table to see where it all washes out.  

    I tend to weight things like movement and range very heavily, so I'm extremely cautious about where this army stands right now, but I hope we can all enjoy discussing it in a good spirit on this thread.  Thanks for posting it.

    Bonesplitters are brilliant now and the maths that show it.

    in Destruction

    Posted

    9 hours ago, bonzai said:

    Regarding Icebone boars. Here is the test... Before the nerf, I could take a unit of 30 arrowboys and a wardokk for brutal beast spirits and on average deal 22 regular wounds and an additional 15 mortal wounds on top of that if curse went off. Show me how the piggies surpass that.

    I think the big thing there is that Arrow Boys were putting damage wherever they wanted it, whereas Boars intrinsically don't do that (combat unit) and have also been slowed down significantly (Breath gone) and can't jump over screens (Breath gone).  So you've gone from engaging on your terms to engaging on your opponent's terms, and that's something that's hard to capture in raw stats.

    Overall my concern here is that the win condition for Bonesplitterz was not hyper damage*, so benchmarking the current output of something like Pigs against their old output is not necessarily going to win you games.  I've played Bonesplitterz at events as much as most people, and from both my experience and what success I've seen from others it was mostly can't-retreat Bonegrinz wound spam (removed from the army via the Warclan) and then in early 3rd Ed, Drakkfoot Curse Arrowboys (removed from the army via the Priest keyword). 

    My point here is that I actually don't mind moving on and seeing different units (pigs) and a different Warclan (Icebone) having their time to shine.  I've already ordered more pigs, because although I'm currently pretty down on the army I'm not giving up on it.  But if we should be ready to move on (we should), that works both ways, and using the old, puny damage output as a benchmark - when that is observably not what won them games - is interesting, but not definitive.  If we're going to be a vanilla combat army, with no teleports or particularly fast units, we need to benchmark against actual combat armies.  I play a few of those, and all of them have me more excited than Bonesplitterz do right now.

    I think there's a real risk that Bonesplitterz have moved from being a solid, high-movement attrition army (with precision burst damage) to a mediocre and much more predictable combat army.  Also worth pointing out that the army has been slowed down further via musicians nerfed to +1" charge.  I believe that all these movement nerfs will be a large cumulative impact - let's see how it plays out, but that's something that comes to light when you move from looking at damage tables to putting the army on the table.  If you don't have the delivery mechanism, you are in trouble - especially for an army with bad armour saves and terrible bravery.  With Bonesplitterz, you're where you need to be or you're dead, there is no inbetween.

    *with the exception of something like Big Stabbas into monsters, which has also been stripped out, and perhaps more importantly has lost its delivery mechanism (no access to double move and fly, no access to run and charge).  Worth noting that they are also frozen out of the new exploding 6s rule

    • Like 5

    Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣

    in Destruction

    Posted

    6 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

    I like these had similar ideas myself but my main question is do I buy and paint a 4th mega just for my 9 mancrushers to all sit on the shelf. Although triple artifact 4 mega on paper looks like it probably is the strongest build now. I especially like the stomper list very similar to what I was thinking. The bravery 10 bubble shores up some key weaknesses and the buffed hero healing is a bonus. 
     

     

    4 Megas is my preferred direction, but there are people doing well with 3 + 3 and even 2+ 6 (I'd avoid the latter personally).

    Sounds like you already have 3 Megas in which case I would say you'll be fine with 3 of them and 3 babies.  I happen to like 4 Megas, but it's not essential.  3+3 is a good army too, and lets you use the models you already own.

    • Like 1

    Bonersplitterz in 3rd Edition

    in Destruction

    Posted

    9 minutes ago, Shirtripper said:

    Hey you, yes, you! Do you like playing Herohammer? Do you ever look at Idoneth Deepkin or LRL with envy over their abilities to fight multiple times in a row but you exclusively think green is the best color and that aelfs really need to cultivate mass?

    Now introducing: The Clone Wars (tm)! Where you can fight with 6x Savage Big bosses in a row followed by a Rogue Idol or whatever! That's 36A/3/3/-1/2 with 2 MWs on 6s to wound.

    This is of course a memey list, but the idea of forcing opponents to split their attacks among 6 Big Bosses who are walking up the field with each other is just too good to pass up at least one test with.

    Ha! Love this 😍

    • Like 1

    Bonersplitterz in 3rd Edition

    in Destruction

    Posted

    I keep putting units of 10 Maniak Weirdnobs in my lists, and then remembering how awful the 3rd Edition coherency rules are for cav bases like them.  You'll be lucky to get more than 7 into combat...pay for 5 more, get 2 more.  

    Like everyone else I'm currently mucking around with Icebone pig lists and I feel like it's definitely the way to go.  My initial thoughts were loads of 5x Boarboys as mobile screens and skirmishing units, and use your reinforcements for a few blocks of 10 Maniaks (and maybe some Big Stabbas - very frustrating that they cannot benefit from the exploding 6s though).  

    But I'm moving more towards using the reinforcements on vanilla Boarboys as mobile tarpits.  You always get the benefit of them being a block of wounds, and at least the spears can hit over the top (if not the pigs), so it feels less inefficient.  I'll probably run the Maniaks as little darts of 5.

    I remain to be convinced that Icebone will actually be a good combat army - fishing for those 6s will be exciting, but even if you spike it's not that many mortal wounds.  Tell me if my maths is wrong, but I've got a unit of 5 Maniaks, with All Out Attack, doing about 4 MWs per activation on average.  That's not amazing return for a dedicated combat unit with a CP (or spell), and the rest is the rend 0 damage 1 stuff we are all too familiar with.

    I've got a deathstar unit of 15 Boarboys with Spears doing about 8.5 MWs (assuming all 15 Spears get in, and 10 out of 15 pigs - you lose a lot of dice to coherency at 3 per pig).  If you can get the rend spell on them too it'll be about 11 failed saves at a modern standard 3+ save.  Circa 20 damage from a fully buffed, 420-point combat unit seems pretty light to me, and if you're thinking that Icebone mortal wounds will solve every problem then I believe that you'll be in for some disappointment.

    They do have a nice dual role as a mobile tarpit, but you'll either need a separate heavy hitter (e.g. take Kragnos and pray that he doesn't get deleted turn one by Lumineth), or accept that your strengths are skirmishing and blocking rather than full-blooded combat.  Unit champs issuing IP is a 3rd Ed change that helps these guys a lot.

    Best thing in the book in my opinion is the Wurggog Mask.  It is a fan-favourite, great fun, really good and I'm rapt to see it back.  He lost a bit and gained a bit, but in a good way in his case.  I'll be running multiples, maybe investing in a cheeky Lauchon to cart them around.

    On 9/12/2021 at 2:29 AM, swarmofseals said:

    , but I don't think any of the losses are super impactful while the gains are exactly that.

    Strongly disagree with this statement:

    • The loss of Curse is super impactful
    • The loss of the best spell (double move and fly) is super impactful
    • The loss of volume of attacks (Savage Orruks and Arrow Boyz both down by 30 attacks per block) is super impactful
    • The points hikes on core units are super impactful
    • The loss of Big Stabbas burst damage (D6 against monsters) is super impactful.
    • The loss of run and charge on Big Stabbas is super impactful
    • The loss of the Monster Hunter table is super impactful

    If you think none of those things mattered and were weak sauce rules, then fair play to you, but I completely disagree.  The mobility bonuses in particular were huge for this army...and super impactful.

    • Like 3

    Save stacking - Menace or necessary?

    in Age of Sigmar Discussions

    Posted

    Save stacking doesn't really work in the context of a game where rend -2 is relatively rare.  It was fine beforehand, where you could look at a warscroll and know that rend -2 was precious, but it's been massively left behind and the game is out of kilter as a result.  

    I totally agree with @Neil Arthur Hotep's solution, i.e. capping it at +1 to save "gross" rather than "net".  The current method just makes the game too binary and creates way too many situations where it's impossible for one player's army to do anything meaningful.  Ignore it and play the objectives is a facile response - that's obviously what we all do, but it is of limited use in the big chunk of missions that have a small number of objectives jammed in the middle of the board.

    As someone who also plays other game systems, I feel like it's worth pointing out that AOS in general has very limited ways to interact with an opposing army other than killing them.  MCP has loads of pushes and throws (a bit like the Slaughterpriest, but a much bigger part of the game); Star Wars Legion and Bolt Action have morale or suppression style effects, whereby you can panic a unit and reduce its effectiveness or even make it sprint towards the nearest board edge (Vader is really good at terrifying people). 

    So that's the context in which I think people are frustrated when they just bounce off something unkillable - most armies don't have the tools to deal with a 0+ save, and when they don't, they've got nowhere else to go.

    • Like 10

    Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣

    in Destruction

    Posted · Edited by PlasticCraic

    4 hours ago, Obeisance said:

    I want to make two Kraken Eaters. Preferably with different heads/etc?

    Edit: I should rephrase. I'm building one of each and a second Kraken. There enough parts to make a second distinct Kraken?

    So there is really one set loadout per Mega, but you could mix it up a little.  The Gatebreaker head (cowl) is a big part of who he is, so I don't think that would work on a Kraken.  

    What I'd maybe do is:

    - Kraken head, tentacle in right hand*, ship wrecka club in left hand, ship on back, plain feet

    - Warstomper head, net in right hand, Johan in left hand, sandal feet

    That way they'll look slightly different but both with a bit of nautical bling

    It's a great kit with really clear instructions - you could easily model the "core" then dry fit to see which bits look right to you

    *this will take some minor hobby saw work

    • Thanks 1

    Bonersplitterz in 3rd Edition

    in Destruction

    Posted

    10 hours ago, Iksdee said:

    Does anyone know a way i can use a maw-krusha with Savage orruk morboys as a battleline unit? I find the new list building a bit confusing tbh.

    You can't do it at 2000 points

    MK is too many points to be an ally in BS, which is the only place Morrboys are Battleline

    You can run em alongside each other in Big Waaagh, but Morrboys won't be Battleline there

    • Like 1

    Bonersplitterz in 3rd Edition

    in Destruction

    Posted

    Probably need to see the new book before we can give you meaningful answers bud.  A couple of boxes of Savage Orruks are generally good to have in your collection and are pretty reasonably priced, but I think we're really all holding out for the new Battletome at this point.

    • Like 1

    AoS 2 - Bonesplitterz Discussion

    in Destruction

    Posted

    On 6/27/2021 at 5:26 AM, bonzai said:

    Nice. This is what I was thinking.

    Sub Faction: Drakkfoot

    HQ
    Wurrgog Prophet 170 (burning tattoo, kunning bs)
    Wardokk 85 (guidance, breath of gorkamorka)
    Wardokk 85 (heal, gorka morka warcry)
    Wardokk 85 (curse, brutal beast spirits)

    Battleline
    30 Arrow Boys 390
    30 Arrow Boys 390
    5 Boar Boys 140 (stikkas)
    5 Boar Boys 140 (stikkas)

    Behemoth
    Rogue Idol 420*

    Endless Spells
    Emerald Life Swarm 60
    Burning Head 20

    Battalion: Battle Regiment

    Total: 1985

    but.... I could drop the 2nd arrowboy unit and the burning head and drop in the 2nd rogue Idol. I kind of like that actually.

    I really like this.  I've been looking at similar things myself.  

    I definitely prefer the other wizards over the Wurggog Prophet - I'd take either a 4th Wardokk and / or a Maniak Weirdnob over him currently.  MWN's rerolls are clutch, especially the extra chances to dispell.

    I think my list was basically the same but with a 4th Wardokk and the extra points gone into another unit of pigs (I hadn't settled on Endless Spells).

    I think it would be particularly strong as a Teams event list.

    3.0 Actual Games Conversation

    in Age of Sigmar Discussions

    Posted

    8 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

    It depends on your list. It's extremely strong for shooting lists that can safely give away the first turn, because when one of those lists gets the double from T1 to T2, it pretty much just wins. This may be slightly less true in AOS3, but in AOS2 a top competitive shooting list that got the T1 to T2 double had a win rate in the mid to high 80s. Absurd levels. 

    Essentially winning 40% or more of your games without even trying because you gave away the first turn and then got the double made going for low drops absolutely worth it for those lists.

    Now that you have to actually one-drop your one-drop battalion, that advantage is slightly mitigated. But you're still going to see those shooting lists going for it, because it's just such a massive advantage.

    As long as games can still be over by the middle of T2 against shooting lists that get the double, you're going to see people chasing low drops with those lists IMO. 

    Some lists that rely on buffs for survivability also needed to go low drop to avoid sometimes just losing the game on T1 because their key pieces got killed before they could be buffed. This is much less of an issue in AOS3 due to all out defense and best day, so for these lists you probably won't see so much emphasis any more on it. 

    Lots of good points there.  Also worth noting the classic Alpha Bunker, still relevant in 3rd Ed. 

    You want Horrors splitting and rezzing on objectives, not away from them.  So some lists want to outdrop you in order to get onto objectives first (or gum you up in your own deployment zone), before you can get going.

    • Like 1

    AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

    in Destruction

    Posted

    On 7/20/2021 at 5:58 AM, Spiky Norman said:

    Are Morgok's Krushas really as bad in 3.0 as @PlasticCraic made them out to be 2.0? It's 95 for three brutes which normally cost 30 a piece, plus 5pts for their special rule that will never come up.

    If you like the models, don't let me be the one to crush your dreams!

    My main problem is that they were a pathetic failure of imagination moreso than that they were bad rules as such.  Brutes are OK, and what you have here is Brutes, but less of them.

    One of the problems at the time was that they couldn't fit in our (excellent) Warscroll Battalions, which isn't a factor now, so they've made back ground in that regard.  I'd still take 5 Ardboyz over them though tbh, for all the reasons pointed out by @NauticalSoupbut mainly for the extra speed. 

    You could also look at squeezing in an extra hero, or allying in a fun and useful piece like their fellow warband Rippa's Snarlfangs, but really in a straight like-for-like I'd still go with the Ardboyz personally.  The additional speed just makes them better.

    • Like 1

    Unleash Hell, might be worth a look at?

    in Age of Sigmar Discussions

    Posted

    5 hours ago, readercolin said:

    All this being said, I haven't played against Lumineth Sentinals with unleash hell.  And EVERYTHING that people have been complaining about as a "Big Problem" has been Sentinels with unleash hell.

    Sentinels are the most eyebrow-raising example, but hardly the only one.  See below Neil's comments in response to somebody else saying that Irondrakes were the only problem:

    On 7/8/2021 at 8:04 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

    People are also worried about all the other shooting units that were already good before. So, bow snakes in DoK, Skinks in Seraphon and Flamers in Tzeentch. There is also a possibility that Stormcast will be quite good at shooting after their new battletome comes out, and Kruleboyz also get units with mortals wounds on hit shooting.

    There are also a bunch of units that were not previously super scary because of their short range, but now become quite hard to deal with on the charge. Skaven has a bunch of those, like Warpfire Throwers and Thanquol, I believe. Also the Warp Lightning Cannon. The Gyrocopter in Cities of Sigmar is another example.

    It's a spread of units with very strong stats that don't care about neg 1 to Hit (e.g. Irondrakes), or mortal wound shooting that also doesn't care about neg 1 to Hit, either because it is fishing for 5s and 6s (Sentinel, Snakes) or just doesn't roll to Hit (Gyrocopters, Skaven).  

    So there really are multiple examples, which is the core point.  The rule itself, as currently written, it too skewed and it's not realistic to expect every current and future unit to be reasonable within the extremely generous parameters it sets.  I do like a lot of the other suggestions (such as removing Battleline status from Sentinels), but the fact is when the net has this many gaping holes in it, something is bound to slip through.  Why make it this hard for themselves to catch everything, and limit the design space of all future shooting units to take this into account?

    So for that reason, I think the OP's suggestion that you should at least have to charge the overwatching unit is very fair.

    Also, as somewhat of a tangent, I've seen a lot of people talking about the smaller table size as a mitigating factor in shooting's overall standing.  I honestly haven't found that having any tangible impact in the games I've played - you start a similar distance apart, and my armies are fighting maybe turn 1 or at the latest turn 2 either way.  If anything, there's slightly less space to deep strike in behind someone which helps protect shooting units, but it hasn't really been a factor.

    What is a factor in favour of combat is Rally.  I've not seen anyone talking about this, but it's a subtle nudge towards melee because when you're within 3", they can't use Rally.  If most / all of your output is coming from shooting, your opponent is likely to be able to continuously Rally and severely dent your capacity to wipe a unit off an objective at range.

    Counterpoint to that is your opponent might be able to tag 'n' bang: if they can corner tag your low-output unit with Aetherwings you might be screwed, but I think at that point we really are getting into an edge case unit that just needs its points substantially increased.

    • Like 2

    Unleash Hell, might be worth a look at?

    in Age of Sigmar Discussions

    Posted

    21 minutes ago, Beliman said:

    @PlasticCraic

    (don't talk about 5+mw, that's a few units in the entire game)

    The reason we need to talk about it is because it's relevant.  People will naturally gravitate towards using those units, and you will have to play against them.

    25 minutes ago, Beliman said:

    mystic shield, high saves, mw on charge, Monstruous Rampage, Geminids, baiting  Unleash Hell

    As I pointed out already, I understand that there is counter play.  A lot of that is highly situational (e.g. MW on charge won't help you when you are charging a screen) so what I am calling for is more counterplay, specifically that the shooting unit can only Unleash Hell when it's actually the unit being charged.  

    Unleash Hell, might be worth a look at?

    in Age of Sigmar Discussions

    Posted

    Yes, it should be tightened up.  This rule is wildly skewed to make point and click shooting even pointier and clickier. 

    Everything about it is overdone:

    - The absurdly generous range (1 model in 9", and an entire unit of Sentinels can bang away)

    - The fact that you don't even have to charge the unit in question: charge a screen and get massacred on your own turn.  Yay, interactive!

    - The complete absence of figs given about negative 1 to hit by the worst offenders

    - The failure to price this ability into the relevant units.  Sentinels, a unit that is already spammed in tournament winning lists, going up by fewer points than Gloomspite Shootas was an...interesting call to make

    Unleash Hell also runs counter to the stated design goals for 3rd Edition:

    - The stated intention behind using CAs on your opponent's turn was to make games more interactive, but this has the opposite effect.  More shooting makes the game less interactive, because it suppresses combat which is by nature interactive.  In practice a lot of the counterplay for my armies will be "stand around scoring VPs and hope to go second in Round 3", which although fine competitively is hardly encouraging interactivity and a fun gaming experience

    - Another stated design goal for 3rd Ed was to lessen the gulf between Haves and Have Nots (hence binning all Warscroll Battalions), which this does not achieve.  Got Mortal Wound shooting and screens?  Boy did you hit the jackpot.  Got cheap flying chaff to charge with?  Lucky you, run some Aetherwings!  (Another unit that is wildly, and predictably, undercosted by the way).

    Yes there is counterplay - I've considered the counterplay to Unleash Hell at great length, and it certainly exists (although I'd argue that there should be more).  No, it doesn't single-handedly ruin an otherwise excellent edition the game.  Neither of those are good arguments for Unleash Hell being a good thing in its own right, or keeping it exactly as it is right now.

    In conclusion, if this rule is going to stick around (which presumably it is), I'd really love to see it tightened up a little.  I think Aaron's suggestion that you should at least have to charge the unit in question is very fair.  I'd honestly go way further personally, but I think that's a great starting point.

    • Like 4
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