swarmofseals
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Posts posted by swarmofseals
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On a different topic, anyone know of any good wardokk proxies out there?
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I have so many OWC lists that I want to try and can't >< RL circumstances keeping me off TTS for the moment. Aughhhhh.
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Has GW stopped releasing the models-only WHU sets? I'd probably buy multiple boxes of Morglok's Krushas to add variety to my brutes squads but at $35 per it's a lot less attractive.
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On 8/16/2020 at 10:52 AM, NeoSoul said:
1- I don't quite understand the whole thing about having different types of armies within the same faction. I know that I can play with only Ironjawz and not buy/use Bonesplitterz' but would this hurt my army potential? I'm trying to understand if Bonesplitterz are meant to fill in some roles that the Ironjawz can't do and if they're meant to be used together or not necessarily.
2- Can they be used competitively or will it feel like I'm bashing my head against a wall? I doubt the local players are all tournament experts anyways but since I haven't played AOS, I don't know how big of a deal those tiers are like (it seems like many people agree that Skavens and Flesh-eater Courts are very powerful and hard to deal with while Slaves to Darkness are absolute trash tier and very hard to win with).
3- What makes Ironjawz fun and unique to play with in terms of game play and mechanics? Do they have something that they're very good at?
4- Any other specific useful information you think I should know about them that could make me interested in them over an other faction?
*Edit 5- I forgot to ask, can the Orruk models from Beastgrave be used or not for AOS? They're some of the best looking models but since there's only 3 of them, I'm guessing all you can do is replace 3 brutes with them for looks for fun?
I know you posted this a little while ago, but hopefully I can still be helpful.
First and foremost, I think the research that you've done is likely very out of date.
Orruk Warclans (including Ironjawz) is definitely a very competitive faction right now with multiple viable builds. They may not quite be "S" tier but they are definitely up there. FEC and Skaven haven't really been boogeymen for quite a while now, and the game overall is much more balanced than it was when Skaven and FEC were at the top.
I also wouldn't say that Ironjawz is reliant on lucky dice rolls really at all. You can build lists that will be more effective if you make a key roll or two but you can also make effective builds that are not reliant on specific dice rolls. Ironjawz units are also VERY consistent in combat. They tend to hit and wound on 3's or 2's and they have very few if any abilities that trigger only on 6's.
To answer your questions more specifically:
1 - Orruk Warclans allows for a couple of different basic builds:
- Ironjawz - only Ironjawz units
- Bonesplitterz - only Bonesplitterz units
- Big Waaagh - any combination of the two (only IJ, only BS, or mix)
If you only want to use IJ units that's totally fine and can be viable in both IJ builds and Big Waaagh builds. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses. If you don't want to use BS units you really don't have to and there are plenty of competitive builds that don't. BS units don't really do anything that IJ units can't also do, they just tend to be a little different (cheaper points per wound, worse armor, little to no rend, a bit faster). In Big Waaagh armies it's often nice to have some BS because they provide more bodies on the table to help build Waaagh points, but they are far from necessary.
2 - They absolutely can be used competitively. There are some factions that will be difficult matchups, but you should be able to compete against almost any opponent. IJ units and abilities are just all around solid at baseline.
3 - If you like smashing things, then IJ are a good choice. When your units swing they will hit hard against almost anything. There are some opponents where this kind of approach won't work so well (some Seraphon, Fyreslayer and OBR builds, for example) but against most opponents you can be very aggressive. There are several tricks in the faction that can take some getting used to but give a lot of tactical depth. Most revolve around the spell Da Great Green Hand of Gork, which is incredibly good if you can get it off. IJ have several ways to close the distance after teleporting, allowing you to teleport and then charge pretty consistently. Overall the best way to describe IJ is that they are "solid" -- very efficient on offense, quite efficient on defense (although a little vulnerable to high rend/mortal wounds), a bit slow but not really all that slow. Just good all around.
4 - not really, but if you are wanting to learn AoS and try out different armies I highly suggest getting Tabletop Simulator and using it to get some online games in. Slaves to Darkness is much less competitive right now, but the model range is a lot wider and the faction is a lot more flexible overall. Nurgle is in sore need of updates, but given that they are one of the oldest books I'd speculate there is a good chance of them getting updated on the sooner side (but this could still be like a year or more, who knows!) OBR used to be extremely good but was recently nerfed. They are still likely quite competitive though, largely for similar reasons to Ironjawz (albeit with a little bit more variety in the faction and more of a slant toward defense). IJ is a much lower model count army overall though, so that might factor in for you.
5 - You can use the Warhammer Underworlds models in AOS but they tend to not be that good.
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Since I started actually playing Orruk Warclans I've been very surprised at how tactical they are:
- Ironjawz may seem very straightforward but the number of "wierd tricks" involving Great Green Hand of Gork, self triggering Zog 'Em/Mad as Hell with Green Puke, and Ironfist to accomplish unpredictable positioning and charges really surprised me.
- Zog 'Em/Mad as Hell means that opponents have a hard time guessing your exact positioning.
- Bonegrinz ability to force charge and prevent retreat allows for all kinds of shenanigans.
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4 hours ago, SirSalabean said:
Hmm how good is the discount box?
It's hard to say as we don't know the prices for the standalone kit. I'd guess it's in the range of $135-$160 worth of models.
- If you are the kind of person who will pay extra for limited edition battletomes, then it's quite a good deal. For $185 MSRP you are getting a limited edition battletome ($80, although this isn't as limited as the regular LE tomes and isn't numbered), $135-160 worth of models and the extra bits and bobs (dice, rangefinder, tokens and some cards).
- If you only value the tome at $40 then you're probably anywhere from paying $10 for the extra bits and bobs to saving $15 on top of the bits and bobs for free
You almost certainly don't want multiple copies of the box, however. You (probably) don't want multiple copies of the tome and one of the three model kits is a named character, so you probably won't want more than one of him either. The rest of the kits are selling for about $100 total on the secondary market (where the box sells for about $160). So if you buy a second box you are basically paying $60 extra for a second set of bits and bobs, a second battletome, and an extra copy of the named character.
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Also I'd probably consider the list with the 10 blocks of maniaks to be a solidly different concept as you aren't really going to use a 280 point unit as a decoy.
Here's the rough variations that I've been working on:
Spoiler3x Wardokk
Maniak Weirdnob
30 savage orruks
30 arrowboys
20 arrowboys
10 boar maniaks
rogue idol
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Savage Big Boss
3x Wardokk
Maniak Weirdnob
30 arrowboys
2x30 savage orruks
rogue idol
brutal rukk
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Savage Big Boss
3x Wardokk
Maniak Weirdnob
30 arrowboys
2x30 savage orruks
5 savage boarboys
rogue idol
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Savage Big Boss
3x Wardokk
Maniak Weirdnob
2x30 savage orruks
2x30 arrowboys
brutal rukk
extra cp
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Savage Big Boss
3x Wardokk
Maniak Weirdnob
2x30 savage orruks
30 arrowboys
15 savage boarboys (either 3x5 or 1x5 1x10. could also run up to 10 as maniaks)
brutal rukk
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5 minutes ago, Verminlord said:
I wonder about the boar choice as well. I thought min size might be better with regular boars because of the +1 to save from Shields and up to +2 with a Wardokk, but I'm leaning towards two 10 maniaks instead so that they're easier to buff/skip battleshock/last longer in combat and actually do some damage like you mentioned.
Here's my list:
Allegiance: Bonesplitterz
- Warclan: Bonegrinz
Leaders
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- General
- Command Trait: A Right Monster
- Artefact: Maw-krusha Beast Totem
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Breath of Gorkamorka
Wardokk (80)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Brutal Beast Spirits
Wardokk (80)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Kunnin' Beast Spirits
Wardokk (80)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies
Battleline
30 x Savage Orruks (300)
- Stikkas
30 x Savage Orruks (300)
- Stikkas
10 x Savage Boarboy Maniaks (280)
10 x Savage Boarboy Maniaks (280)
Units
6 x Savage Big Stabbas (300)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 90 / 400
Wounds: 230
I've taken an extra CP and allied in a fungoid purely as a CP battery. I could swap him for another Wardokk or a big boss.
Had trouble fitting everything I wanted on top of a battalion so I haven't taken one. I feel like you need extra bodies in bonegrinz.
I'm also not sure if I should take big stabbas in min units or as one big hammer...
Just fwiw the Maw-krusha beast totem is only for Savage Big Boss. You don't have to take it unless you are trying to put an artefact on a Savage Big Boss. Unless it's been eratta'ed and I don't know about it.
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3 hours ago, Verminlord said:
Trying out bonegrinz soon. Anyone have any tips?
I'm thinking of running lots of min size shield boarboys to pull people off objectives and two 30s of shield savages to take objectives.
I'm worried about not having enough CP to skip battleshock as I will be taking a lot charges.
Also, does the bonegrinz CA stack with Savage Big Boss CA? Both give an extra hit on 6s...
I'm thinking about trying something similar and will be getting some games in on TTS as soon as I can. I posted a bit in the OWC thread about taking Ironjawz/Bonesplitterz vs. Big Waaagh but haven't gotten anyone to weigh in yet.
Bonegrinz definitely seems like it could be powerful, and I also anticipate CP being problematic. The two CAs do in fact stack.
Brutal Rukk seems like an obvious choice for this kind of build, but I do wonder a bit whether maniaks might be better than regular boar boys as they are less reliant on charging to deal damage. The extra point of bravery is also fairly relevant. Even if you take 4 casualties on a unit of 5 maniaks you've got a 50/50 shot to keep the last guy alive. With the little distraction units you only need to keep 1 guy alive to get the full effect.
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7 minutes ago, animusCompassionist said:
Hi all! My usual play group and I are pretty casual but recently a guy got the Lumineth box and I can't for the life of me deal with the Light of Eltharion. The most damage I was able to do was with my 30 arrowboyz. I don't know if I was just unlucky or if the model itself is just bonkers, but if I leave it alone it wreaks havoc on my boyz. Is magic the only consistent way to deal damage to it?
Yes, if you are trying to kill it the best way to go about it by far is mortal wounds. However, in many games you can also ignore it or tarpit it as it's only one model.
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1 hour ago, TheToastman said:
I've had multiple games where I'll charge in, do 30 damage to this block of 10, and be told "no it's 2x5, remember" when no, I don't, because I forgot about it since they're all grey plastic with nothing to show the end of 1 unit. I should remember it, yes, but it annoys me that I have to remember the position and unit of individual models in your army.
Ugh, this is terrible practice. The guy should at the very least mark his bases to distinguish the units. I hope he isn't using one run or charge roll for both units.
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To return to the original question @Athrawes asked, I play three kinds of games:
- Casual games for fun. These are likely to be more narrative games or matched play games with fluffy or otherwise silly lists. In such games I'm definitely not going to try to catch someone out unless we're actively trying to roleplay it and it suit's my faction's character.
- "Serious" casual games. Most of my games are like this -- matched play games with at least semi-competitive lists but with nothing on the line. I treat these games as a pure learning experience. I want to test my ideas, find out where I make mistakes and learn how to play against different lists. I do not care who wins or loses and will actively avoid trying to catch opponents out. I will give them a rundown of my army and answer any questions, and if it looks like they are forgetting something mid-game I'll try to remind them if I notice it. I do still keep score of course and try to figure out who is likely to win if we have to finish early, but this is mostly about connecting decisions to consequences and not about "glory".
- Tournament games. In an actual tournament I will strive to provide my opponent with the warscrolls and all relevant abilities of my army. I will answer any questions honestly, but I'm not going to actively try to stop my opponent from making mistakes or remind them of things mid-game. Of course if they ask me "can you do X?" I will answer honestly.
Personally, I don't see any value in trying to "gotcha" people in casual games, and I think actively deceiving the opponent is a crummy thing to do in any context.
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I've been focusing in on warclans a lot over the past week or so and am trying to hone in on exactly when to go for Big Waaagh vs faction specific.
In terms of broad design, it seems that in the context of Big Waaagh:
- Bonesplitterz offers bulk bodies, peak defensive efficiency, speed (boars) and an option for ranged support
- Ironjawz offers rend, a wicked monster, peak damage efficiency, and teleportation
Most commonly in BW lists I see a heavy focus on one faction usually with a smaller component from the second. Usually it's mostly IJ with some savages for bodies/waaagh points. Some lists are split more evenly. Clearly if you want to sample from both sides you need to go BW.
But what if you are going solely IJ or solely BS? When to pick BW vs. IJ/BS?
It seems to me that IJ benefits less from BW as it's pretty easy to hit on 2's in IJ already. So with BW you get +1 to wound later on, the 6+ shrug and access to additional casting/unbinding bonuses but you lose Mighty Destroyers, subfactions, and Smashing and Bashing. That's a lot to give up.
BS really benefits from the +1h/+1w from BW, the +1 charge, and the extra d6 move when damaged plus access to the casting/unbinding bonuses. You give up subfactions, Tireless Trackers and Monster Hunters. In this case it seems like BW is probably a better deal most of the time.
So I wonder, when do you guys like to use the BS package over BW?
I imagine using a subfaction would be a main motivation. I wonder if Bonegrinz or Drakkfoot could be reasonable metagame choices.
Drakkfoot - giving up the CT, CA, and artefact are not exciting at all (or are actively bad), but the ability to ignore damage negation is a pretty big deal:
- Teclis/Light of Hysh
- Kroak
- Phoenixes/Phoenix Guard
- Hearthguard
- DoK
- Nurgle
- To a lesser extent: Big Waaagh, Bonesplitters, all Death
Ignoring ethereal is pretty meh as it doesn't even work on stuff like Light of Eltharion or Alarith stonestance and BS lacks rend anyway, but there are a lot of very popular armies out there that really rely on ward saves. They also tend to be matchups that could otherwise be tricky for BS, and Drakkfoot should be a huge advantage.
Bonegrinz also seem kinda interesting to me. Forcing enemies to charge and preventing retreat has really serious power potential especially for a faction that can put so much defensive efficiency on the board. The more the meta shift towards ranged units, the more powerful this subfaction becomes. The new set of battleplans also seem quite friendly to this ability.
What do you guys think?
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Some really gorgeous previews and a reasonably exciting battle box. Although I've struggled to get into WHU the new previews for that game look spectacular. I really really really hope that the owl thing shows up in other Lumineth kits at some point.
I'm somewhere between blase and over the moon with the new Broken Realms books. I absolutely love the concept, and as long as they have some associated model releases and/or matched play rules like previous campaign books they will be an amazing opportunity to flesh out and update existing armies without a full battletome release. I've been pushing for this release model for years and will be thrilled if they are actually doing it. Will for sure buy every book.
That said, my excitement will be severely tempered if they are intended to only be valid until the next GHB. That would mean a really short shelf life for anything that comes out in the Spring, and with the 'rona still raging it would be such a shame for these new releases to be around for a few months to a year and never see much play. I'm super thankful for TTS (by the way: if you haven't tried TTS yet you really should), but it's not quite the same.
So if we're still battling the pandemic next Summer and these rules get stomped by the next GHB, I'll still like the concept but it'll be solidly meh for me. If these are intended to be part of the game for the next couple of years though then I'm super stoked.
It blows my mind that GW still hasn't clarified exactly what they meant by "previous publications".
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@Okonomiyakimarine two words: tabletop simulator!
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13 hours ago, Arkahn said:
I like the idea of brutes behind savage orruks.
The Wardokk can turn savage into a solid anvil or maniak boarboyz into a very good tarpit !
From the GHB20 I gave up the 12.1" TP Ironfist gruntas, but I miss it too much !
What do you think about this list compare to yours ?
I'm not really sure my opinion counts for much as I've gotten all of two games in with Orruk Warclans so far. I'd be hesitant to drop a Warchanter as they make such a big difference to the overall damage output.
I wouldn't count on boars working as a tarpit. Really the key problem that I see with throwing units forward at the beginning is that all the heroes are super slow and thus you'll be losing a lot to battleshock as you won't be in range of inspiring presence. This problem has left me wondering about a maniak weirdnob.
I've also ended up using the savage orruks mainly to hold ground while I throw my damage dealers at the enemy. I've been wondering if they might be better as arrowboys who can help clear out screens and otherwise contribute while taking up space.
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Got a game in with the alternate list in the previous post. It seemed very strong indeed with good staying power and pretty reliable turn 1 threats.
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Tried a game today against what seemed like a really bad matchup on paper. We were playing Knife's Edge. The lists (roughly):
Spoiler2x Warchanter (1 fixin beat, 1 get em beat)
Weirdnob Shaman (Hand, Master of the Weird, Shamanic Skullcape)
Ironfist: 4x10 Brutes (dual choppas setup), 3 Gore Gruntas
30 Savage Orruks (stikkas)
vs.
Coalesced Seraphon - Thunder Lizard
Kroak
2 Skink Starpriest
3x30 Skinks
2x10 Skinks
3 Bastiladons
Coalesced Seraphon seems brutal to play against, but the game was actually really good. I made some errors and rolled pretty poorly. I had a chance on turn 1 to get off the Hand + Get 'Em combo and kill a lot of Skinks but rolled snake-eyes on the casting roll. I even had arcane terrain! Then I got double turned and his shooting whittled down my army. I got off the combo on bottom 2 and took a VP lead, but he was able to slowly wear me down. The server crapped out during my double turn at top of 4 but barring some really good rolls I think he was going to edge me out. There was some chance of a draw.
Given the difficulty of the matchup the list definitely seemed strong. I'm wondering about a different build though, something like:
2x Warchanter (1 fixin beat, 1 get em beat)
Weirdnob Shaman (hand, master of the weird or maybe dead kunnin', shamanic skullcape)
Wardokk (breath of gorkamorka, mork's boney bitz)
Ironfist: 2x10 Brutes, 6 Gore Gruntas
30 Savage Orruks (stikkas)
10 Savage Boar Boy Maniaks
The drop count is higher but the list is a lot faster and still packs a big punch with two ways of getting a threat to the enemy on turn 1 even if you have to go first.
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5 hours ago, Dankboss said:
Look out Sir and cover ought to be enough; if they're focusing him down then they're not targeting your squigs. I don't see why he's vulnerable to shooting when every other option gets sniped off faster by every means. If you're concerned with losing heroes to ranged and magic, then he's the only pick who can resist that. A Madcap casting nightshroud would also be a good addition.
I play against Tempest's Eye Irondrakes 50% of my games and they have never killed him.I'm not just looking for any random hero though, I'm looking at heroes that make the rest of the army better. Even if it never dies having a Dankhold doesn't do anything to make grots better. They still need a Loonboss to do work.
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1 minute ago, Dankboss said:
The Troggboss is the hardest hero we have to kill, especially in this meta, so he'll have utility in being an anchor that can't be sniped off.
I guess, but I'm not sure how much value he brings to a squig focused build. He can't be general if you want to get squigs back from the loonshrine and he's still very vulnerable to shooting.
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4 hours ago, WatcherintheWater said:
Can you use the KO artifacts in a TE army? I always assumed that wasn't allowed, but I can't actually find it written down as a rule now.
Definitely not unless I missed some special rule somewhere.
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Jaws of Mork rules are pretty exciting! Bounders are crazy efficient in the new battalion. Their offense when charging is amazing, even unbuffed and their defense is reasonably good. Even hoppers are pretty solid in the battalion. That said, I think how to build the rest of the list out is an interesting question and I can think of a few possibilities:
- Take the new superbattalion with squig herd or hoppers as your battleline and consider adding a couple of support elements (wizards and/or snufflers).
- Take two of the new small battalions and use hoppers are your battleline. Again, maybe take some support elements.
- Take a more balanced approach with the smaller battalion either as the centerpiece or as a support piece. Either way you're taking a bit more non-squig stuff.
I'm honestly not sure at all what the best approach is. The metagame is pretty hostile to the grot part of the army now because it's so easy to pick off the key heroes, and unsupported units of grots seem pretty unattractive to me especially if you aren't going to be able to bring them back from the loonshrine. Beyond the obvious snufflers I'm not sure what the best support elements are. A couple of fungoids? A madcap with mommet? An arachnarok with shrine (sneaky distraction? arachnacauldron?).
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For those of you who have tried Rogue Idol in Bonesplitterz competitive lists, how well have you found it to work?
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A question for those of you that have significant experience playing and eels list in competitive tournaments:
What do you consider to be your bad matchups? Are there specific factions or lists that you really hope to avoid facing?
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13 hours ago, Frowny said:
He does seem brutal against little heroes. I'm worried about a lot of cities lists because of him (or lord kroak) let alone any other list dependent on 5-6W little heroes. Even +2 to dispel is no good against them. Maybe a small unit of shadow warriors? Force him to defend his backfield. Probably can't kill even kroak, but at least force him to stay back a bit so you can win on the front faster, before your heroes all die. 3x30 ironbreakers seems a bit too many. What about 2x30 and then using the points for some Irondrakes. Gives you BOTH the mobility of the darkshards AND the firepower of the drakes. Alternatively, since you are in the melee direction already, hammerers? A bit more independent and still killy if all the characters die.
I'm not quite as worried about Kroak. He can do more damage but there is also a lot more opportunity to disrupt him. Teclis can cast his main damage spell through spellportal, and his forward units can cast the endless spells.
Shadow warriors aren't going to be helpful at all as a threat.
So far the Ironbreakers have been great. They are the only part of the list that has really lived up to expectations. The problem is that Teclis and Light of Eltharion have just enough offense to collapse units quickly once the heroes are dead. Battleshock becomes the killer then.
In basically any other matchup where you can keep your heroes alive longer this shouldn't be as much of a problem.
AoS 2 - Bonesplitterz Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
Yeah, I think 30 blocks of Morboyz aren't very practical because of the 1" weapon range. For regular SO's with stikkas a 30 block is fine, but for Morboyz a big chunk of the unit is going to be sitting idle and you aren't even getting a massive regiment discount. Really I'm not much of a fan of Morboyz in general and especially not against SCE as you're basically never getting a monster kill. I'd much prefer maniaks.