Andalf

Keeping up with this rules debate and I gotta say that the focus is on the very outlying edge of units we can consider busted by the new changes. The only thing I’ve heard repeated across the internet the last few days mechanically in regards to actual Rules griping, is Gluttons got bent and Sentinels, but also all MW on 6 shooting (probably still all shooting units to many people who liked AoS before shooting existed...) is OP because Unleash Hell. From my perspective I think this means GW have actually done a pretty good job, not a lot of holes to be found so far despite a lot of us keyboard warriors pecking away at it the last couple weeks. I think the reinforcement rules will have a much larger “butterfly effect” than people think. A lot of the buffs that people used to stack don’t do it quite the same way anymore, or you can pull off that one great big buff/swing but that’s all your going to get for the whole turn. You end up so focused on making those two/three stacking ability situations work that the rest of your moves after you’ve blown your load are super obvious and not just easy to work around but your responses are static so they can be read. Not many people are just going to do exactly what you want them to because they have other choices to make with that unit now to score VP’s like, can I run to within 3 other friendly units running? or get into your deployment with 1 other unit, rather than charge into your MW’s for no reason. Once you add battletome specific spells and character buffs you can’t gauge the new Command Abilities like you think, there’s no possible way to measure that we can’t play this game enough. Ranges and the character bubbles have proven to be much more limiting so far IME at the tables. Forcing us to keep our formations tighter and shrinking the board does make the game move a lot faster despite what I’ve heard about the new coherency problems. Saturmorn spells it all out beautifully, everything takes a probability calculation at first, but if the games on the line a 90/10 option looks different than it does on your first activation turn one. This game is a lot more focused on what’s about to happen next, then knowing exactly what your guys are going to get done per roll, than everybody is giving it credit for. If these 30 sentinel squads are something that you play against regularly I would suggest it’s up to you to prepare for it at this point without getting into ad hominem remarks about it. I expect to see them at tournaments and haven’t? But I have a plan and whether it works is up to the dice/scenario/priority/do they have Teclis?/which great nation this time?/yadda yadda... sounds like half the folks are cool with coming up with new ways to play while others just want a bit of a nerf bat taken to a few units first?

They won’t be as game-tilting at least; if everybody is on track to receive more Wards and Bodyguard rules. When I got my Soulblight battle tome I was very happy with the amount of stuff I could include to protect my heroes in general, SCE look similar, can’t speak to the new Orruks. The proliferation of hardcore-parkour players who quintuple-downed on Sentinels is going to leave a lot of folks at least sifting their collections to try and make it work. I’m personally hoping to run into them myself because it might finally be my chance to ruin 60 sentinels day. I still think it’s the Cathaller that’s likely to be the hardest things to play around in armies that take a lot of Vanari bodies.

Unfortunately I can’t see them going anywhere fast because of this. On the brightside I can’t see more than one double reinforced squad now because it just takes too much from the rest of the list, and because of that I do believe all armies have a better chance of chaffing them, or straight up being able to take the hit. You can’t fit the old Auralan Legion with min wardens and max sentinels AND Teclis anymore at 2075 points so I think not getting Automatic Lambent Lights/Spellportals OR losing the Cathaller is a big enough shock to that build.

You see cookie cutter, I see endless combinations. It’s not my fault a Vampire Lord and Belladamma are 340 points and a Lyrior Uthralle and a Cathallar is 355, or a Lord Arcanum on Gryph charger and Knight Incantor for the same.

Thanks for the clarification, the instance hasn’t turned up in any of my games yet with my Stormcast but I suppose I was building the case for that specific unit which comes at 6 models only. I was very much hoping this was the case for my Sequitors.

This is moving, I really think piling in is different. My arguments are starting to sound like wishlisting though.

You remove models outside of coherency at the end of each turn. You can move outside of coherency all you like in pile ins as long as models are within .5” with each other, with the expectation that at the end of your turn you remove models outside of coherency when you have more than 5 models not within 2. That’s how I’m reading the rule anyways.

Everybody keeps mentioning the units that weren’t fixed as though the changes do NOTHING to help mitigate the worst offenders. IMO, I don’t think anybody can come out and say that’s true. I acknowledge the fact that Unleash Hell exacerbates the specific issues with Sentinels, (I take personal exception against Stormfiends and they’ve been around since the start of AoS2 no?) but it is an in game mechanic that you need to learn how to play into. You can’t play around these parts of the game and ignore them like you used to and just go about buff-star-death-maxing your own forces to the point it’s not even a strategy/battle tactics game but a dice off version of Digital Pocket Monsters. I’m not saying “git-gud” please don’t go there, I’m just saying it’s been a part of the game since day one, and this set of rules does push the envelope closer to a good balance IMO. I think what they’ve done most, in order to level this playing field, is spread the activations out across the army while trying to lower the amount of units brought to the table. Not just this but with the battalions armies are going to really look alike build-wise in order to gain those inherent benefits. There are a lot of 4-5 drop lists I’m seeing show up, 3-4 characters, rarely more than 3 choices outside of that and basic battle line options. It’s good because I’ve noticed all of my worthwhile General/Wizard/Endless Spell combinations in heroes are around 450 points no matter the battle tome. There’s just as much shooting as ever, but fewer units are worth chucking 30 damage into, and wasted damage is going to be something that really separates the good generals from the best ones. Even via the coherency changes. If I take a unit of 6 Ogor Gluttons and they all survive through the charge into combat, I then get my 3” pile in, slide some models so I can get all 6 in. There are a ton of armies you can expect to lose the ogre to the return swing, before coherency kicks in. Finally, and I really like how this plays on the table, the best generals are going to HAVE to know EXACTLY how many resources go into which one of their activations moving through each phase, or an ability won’t land or you’ll run out of the CP to do it. Having 9 Gluttons in a unit isn’t a bad thing if it’s your goal to take every charge you can with it, soaking two units of Blood Knights on the charge or a double fighting IJ/FeC list is a requirement for some armies who can’t go toe to toe with them. In theory, double reinforcing a batteline option is the list building counter to the OTT shooting that may still be out there, because the most aggressive shooting lists are either losing models to the new reinforcement rules on a per unit basis, or the buffs you’d stack on them outside of Unleash Hell don’t go as far so they might not represent the absolute most efficient use of points in those slots anymore (looking at you Raptors and Tzeentch Flamers). So now those bigger units are lasting longer into games and forcing more interactions between the players using them to settle the victory conditions rather than just whichever death star activates first/doesn’t fail its buffs. AND it’s really up to the individual which ones come along for the ride because you can’t stick as many eggs in each basket anymore, and all of the new BT’s have shown that with the Wholly Within changes and plethora of synergies baked in to each army now, especially the sub factions.

It sounds a lot like Yuki just doesn’t like playing AoS? Because the steps he plainly spit probabilities for are the only things you really do... whether it’s casting a spell, or charging, or rolling for sides/first turn...

You’re exactly correct about it Reinholt, they are that good at 195 points I think. I wouldn’t count on Black Knights going down to compensate either when you see every Soulblight list packing 10+ of them. It’s just another obvious ‘nerf-this-to-oblivion’ sign posted by the creators of a relatively shallow FOMO pecking order of operations. Everybody who bought more than 10 of these things on release is going to be joining the chorus of rape-whistles @ the next GHB when they go to 230 points, justifiably or not. I would suggest to you that you try the units that you feel are ‘cool’ even if the internet or your warhammer-spidey-senses tell you otherwise. It’s the little things with this unit, and if you can get one of those little factors to turn up, using the 6” auto charge, managing to juice more than one D3 MW, yeah we know Dire Wolves take up more space, but they don’t take some of the natural buffs as well. I’ve been using them with the rumoured changes and they honestly aren’t that much different in affect/output to the Dawnriders that I also use all the time. They require tactics and actual table top situations to thrive, not the made up fantasy settings I keep hearing people stuffing them into.

I gotta say that the pile in an extra 3” ability is something I regularly have one of those “wish I could have that” moments when running more of a zombie horde with Vyrkos. All of those swirling combats with flying models can really make use of that ability as we’ve all so recently made note of... I wonder what going against the grain of a typical LoB list with all of the Deathrattle models and really investing in extending the Zombie tide and putting that little mechanic to more use could look like... In both of those dynasties I take the reroll charge aura simply because getting in always seems so much more important, but maybe this is also a good place for an interesting Vanguard combination. Belladamma and wolves love this but I’m a little to much of a theme player to cross bloodlines.

I was going to recommend Stormcast myself. With the new tome it looks like there may be a few more layers to sift through but it will likely still be based on units from the same chamber doing similar things on the table. Their points look to be getting adjusted significantly upwards in the rumour section and IMO that tends to lend itself towards a more healthy self supporting warscroll, which I heard the Eternals are supposed to be more elite/superheroey. It’s likely they’ll have more one off abilities like the Annihilators MW w/in 10” on the deep strike and roll dice = to the # of your charge roll and on 4+ do more MW...then die and also potentially do more MW... I think there will also be a lot of models available...

I used Pinions on Radukar the Wolf with Levitate from Belladamma on his Kosargi Nightguard to very good affect against my friends sacrosanct. Even having fly up just when you’re piling in is a huge boon.

I think it looks really solid. The only change I think I’d make is Aristocracy of Blood on the Vamp Lord instead of Contempt on the Wight King. If you’re planning to take the charge it will help ensure your counter lands, I really like pinions on a Vamp Lord and leaving a spot for him to charge into second rank if the skeletons make it in. The bravery bomb is still intact; it’s just a more subtle ploy rather than a main strategy.

Really like the list. I just can’t bring myself to use dead walkers with the mighty Queen in the army... too many ties to the past 7th Ed...

I believe that this Blood Knight list, and every version like it is going to be a gatekeeper, if not top table mirror match, in a lot of competitive environments soon. @ hexinscarlet; If you’re only able to fit in 2x20 I’d always go with Zombies. It leaves the option to put one in the grave and bring up behind your main push of Knights. I like your first list for board control but the second one is so smashy. I’d even consider 2x20 zombies instead of 1x40 there. With the pile-in mechanic you can ensure it’s only two/four of your models in swing range, and two units doing this can really slow down the centre of the board without needing to do anything except run into position and try not to expose yourself too much.

My Ymetrica army is actually really enjoying the changes now that I’ve ironed out a few wrinkles. I played Alarith centric lists since the first boxed set got released and was always thinking that if we could get a teleport spell everything would be solved. The spell helped me do what I wanted to do, but everybody else’s reliance on the same Battalions throughout the game really made my army incompatible when compared to using the Auralan Legion or the two Aelementari temples, which were novelties really. It just wasn’t quite fit for the game. Now I feel like my smaller 5 man Alarith Squads might actually have teeth, especially with Avalenor nearby. They’ll still get peppered with MW’s, and the new prevalence of them does have me worried, but I think the TAC approach has a lot of legs in AoS 3. This is the list I’m currently planning: Lyrior Uthralle Avalenor Stonemage Windmage 4 x 5 Stoneguard 2 x 5 Dawnriders 2 x Starshard Ballistas Twinstones of Hysh Emerald Lifeswarm I realize it’s light in scoring bodies but it has the ability to get around the table a bit. I’ll have a pretty easy chance at 4 - 5 CP’s/command abilities a turn , especially if I stay in the Shrine with Stonemagey. The Windmage can take the teleport spell, which makes contesting anything with my 3+ almost unrendable Stoneguard. They’re a lot better served with the coherency changes than most in smaller units and with being able to activate two units back to back. They will perform the role of walling off objectives better than most armies while Lyrior will hopefully be around to keep Protection of Hysh up. There’s almost enough shooting for me to be happy, I’d like to swap the Dawnriders for Windchargers but it would likely have me changing the rest of the list to suit. I don’t think this is an all powerful army that will hang with Teclis and 40 Sentinels, but I do think that this list works ten times better in AoS3 than it did in 2nd edition, and I like that most of the themed lists that I’ve tried to make a bit competitive seem like they have a chance at least. The 3 x Bladelord with Ellania and Ellathor, Loreseeker, Teleporting Lord Regent and run/charge Dawnriders will also be something on the docket. We have good overall speed to handle the new Battle Tactics, scoring 3 or 4 of these will be a big swing for some armies capable. We still have some of the best infantry in the game, alongside arguably the best supporting magic; we just have to make it work a little more concisely rather than trying to do everything in the same turn.

For sure, every little D3 I keep thinking about makes this combo feel dirtier. I was trying the Coven Throne and Endless Swarm, but I like being able to go after the destroy a unit and kill the general tactics. The list has the speed to score some of the other ones like savage spearhead, and same with the Monster spell, get it up on any of the characters and battle tactics get a lot more straightforward. Bolt and the Engine also really help the Bloodseekers attacks go off turn 3/4. Well timed Unleash Hell’s are devastating pushing 3d3 wounds in one turn potentially. The +1 A not being a Command Ability is where it actually shines.

I’m really digging that bravery bomb, I have a game against a magic heavy Stormcast army tomorrow and might try that out! I have been running mostly LoB, but I’ve tried some Vyrkos zombie hordes and I think that’s a better play style for me. I’ve been trying to fit Cogs and Horrorghast, so far the 30 skeleton blob with necromancer hasn’t come close to dying. I was trying to fit two units of 20 GG, but the list ends up being too slow and unable to keep up with all the 12” move stuff. This is the latest version going all out on trying to score Vendetta and kill characters while bravery bombing and bubble wrapping with the Black Knights, cleaning up with the close combat ability of the vamps and hopefully some spell support: Neferata - Decrepify Bloodseeker Palanquin - Soulbound Garments, Spirit Gale Wight King - Arcane Tome, Soulcrushing Contempt 3 x 5 Black Knights 2 x 5 Blood Knights Mortis Engine Chronomantic Cogs Umbral Spellportal Horrorghast Getting Arcane Bolt up on the Wight King to try and land 3d3 MW on a charge and trying to maneuver squads to help juice up Spirit Gale. With Neferata’s command ability I can cover most of the black knights pushing forward with her -1 to hit making them good roadblocks. The blood knights will take Dark Mist and play as aggressive as possible. The Mortis engine makes closing with multiple units tough, and the Wight King can be a real wild card with Mystic Shield as well. It’s not the greatest but I think it’ll be fun to play, and will give me options in game to actually shoot for Battle Tactics, which is something most of my lists have struggled to do. One of the main things I’ve noticed in my games is that we don’t get many CP’s and it really comes down to getting spells through to tip the scales while really controlling the one or two overall commands you’re likely to receive per turn.

I think you have it right Hex. I’ve used the 30 block of skellies in most of my games and it hasn’t been removed completely yet. In the Vyrkos lists it’s the anchor to one of my flanks while zombies and dire wolves push into the middle and bog everything down on the 6” pile in. Amethystine Pinons has been amazing on foot Vamps, and if it doesn’t go off I’ve found Levitate works in a pinch. I’ve been running a Mortis Engine with Belladamma so it hasn’t been to hard to cast. I’ve been tinkering with lists that bring Cursed City and I gotta say there is a lot of hidden synergy in there. I put spoor tracker on the foot vampire and my 40 Zombies and 10 wolves had no problem keeping units away from my objectives and drawing in anybody who got too close for all my Vamps to gang up on, but the Kosargi and Gorslav are deadwalkers too so you can really support that push with some solid models with 2” reach and extra Command Abilities. I feel like my opponents will get wiser to that but it still makes for a wide no go zone. Radukar the Wolf with pinions can get where he needs, and I’ve cast levitate on the Kosargi and left holes in my pile ins for them to tuck into. The extra CP from Torguillius has been extremely helpful in popping Halgrims ability turn one to gain position with 30 Skeletons or GG, and Gorslav turn 2+ after a unit of zombies or dire wolves has gone down, I think that’s almost been worth losing Vanhel’s for and with Chronomantic Cogs I can push around 2 -1 to hit spells or a timely Fading Vigour. Blood born running around, especially if you can bounce cover to cover, they seem low priority at first but they really move and cause bad decisions. Ghost Mist and Prismatic Palisade are great in the list to hide important Characters and all the little unique squads. Pretty much all of them have wards or can bounce wounds to a friendly as well. Lastly, the Vargskyr is actually badass. I was casting Under the Killing Moon on him and fighting from behind two ranks of zombies a lot. He doesn’t get his bite attack but he was always in the thick of it causing headaches; he reminded me of a close combat version of the Hurakan Wind Spirit. There were a lot of working parts and I think I might reign in some of the characters but it’s a fun army to play. Here’s the list: Belladamma Volga - Levitate Radukar the Wolf - Amethystine Pinions Gorslav Torguillius - Fading Vigour Halgrim Vampire Lord - Ghost Mist, Spoor Tracker, Arcane Tome, Warlord Enhancement: Spirit Gale Kosargi Nightguard Vyrkos Bloodborn Vargskyr 2 x 20 Zombies 30 Skeletons 10 Dire Wolves Mortis Engine Chronomantic Cogs Prismatic Pallisade I put the Vamp and 2 chars/dire wolves into a Warlord and took a Vanguard with Radukar, the Kosargi and 2 Zombie squads. It’s allowed me to reroll some timely charges or bounce the auto 6” run to not need charges with the zombies. This way of bringing units into combat normally makes it so you’re only getting 2-3 zombies in contact and with coherency a lot of units have struggled to get enough models swinging back to do much. I also really want the Spell Portal now, and will try and throw some endless spells through it after Lycancurse. I think the list could use more bodies but everything kind of works together, I’m not sure where to start trimming fat.

CP’s can be pretty scarce. Often by the charge phase. You can save it to unleash hell with 6 hurricane raptors but then everything else is prone. Quite a few, if not all, armies can get around this. Not to mention anybody toning down their unit sizes probably won’t care if you smack down one of 3 5 man squads. The smaller no man’s land makes a huge difference. I’m not trying to say you guys are wrong, I just haven’t seen it show up in any games, my units are basically in the exact same places as they would’ve been in AoS2, there’s just some restrictions involved that Everybody has to make the Same adjustment for. Those extreme shooting armies are no fun to play against because it was 3 x 9 of the worst offenders getting pushed through the roof. You can’t do that anymore either.

7 upfront, 5 in the back isn’t a waste. That unit is impossible to delete in a turn for most armies and that, in itself, is major. Anyways, I apologize some of my remarks are a bit OTT. I understand the unit by unit case is going to come up with situations that aren’t obvious. I’m trying to say that the tactics people are espousing should work this way aren’t even present in the game anymore so why not figure it out?

I can’t think off the top of my head, a 25mm base unit that I’m really scared of except Grave Guard right now... and that’s normally after a bunch of support anyway. I’m not seeing this problem sorry guys.

He’s trying to tell you that the rules don’t reward fiddly movement anymore. Because they don’t. You’re right, even with my 25mm bases, when I try to string into a combat I end up exposing the unit to too many charges, 3/6/9 monsters and even 10/15 model cavalry units still work just fine because people are still trying to wrap around units and are rolling 10 and 15 wide infantry squads. 10 man cav can have a 7 man front. 15 should be able to get 9~. I think I understand your arguments because I felt like things were really fiddly my first couple games. The math required to figure out the maximums your unit can do have nothing to do with numbers/equations. It actually really flows quite well on the tabletop when you’re actually playing games. Also, get a combat gauge? It’s “does it fit like this?” Those minutiae interactions in combat have always been there, it has a restriction now that requires TACTICS, not Strategy. It’s a thing in war games that Warhammer, and in particular AoS has been in very short supply of.

...but that interaction that you’re saying is a waste of time is actually the tactics that the player needs to utilize to make their units do the job they want. Sorry Yuki, there are no ‘real world conditions’ that I’m not taking into account. My 30 blob skeletons still bounced off 10 Sequitors, crazy 6” pile in units to swamp enemies HAVE to use what you’re saying is too hard to understand to work. I really don’t understand what you’re saying anymore.