vinnyt

I usually take hold more terrain features. It's really easy to do with my mobility and nobody has ever really tried to stop me doing it.

Alrighty, time for a classic BATREP!!!! Our Heroes: Gnarlroot: Alarielle Branchwraith with 3d6 artifact TLA warlord 2x5 tree revs 1x5 spite revs 3 SWORD Kurnoths (that's right they have swords now) 2 Treelords Spiteswarm Hive Linebreaker and Battle Regiment for 4 total drops Triumph is +1 to wound, GS is keep a caster alive, and I'm 1970 points Our Villains: My opponent busted out the new nurgle for a thematic battle! Rotigus Rotbringer with Arcane Tome Lord of Affliction warlord Horticulx Slime guy 1x5 Blightkings 2x2 Pusgoyles 1x2 Beasts 1985ish points and more drops than me. GS is keep battleline alive Deployment: We roll up power in numbers (6 objectives, burn ones you control at end of turn, battleline is better) I deploy like usual with the trees and Alarielle in the relative center so that they can go where they need to and the kurnoths on the left so that they can bubble out the command aura to the rest of the army. In deploying this way, I get my opponent to put Rotigus in the far corner, where I'm hoping to contain him for the game. The flies and his general deploy into deep strike Turn 1: He declares monstrous takeover with rotigus and begins to slog up the board. His magic kills a couple tree revs and chips a wound off the kurnoths. He also summons a tree. He then deepstrikes all the flies and general, but only the general makes the 9" charge into the Kurnoths, whom I deployed in the woods specifically for the additional armor save in case this happened. Between disease and regular damage, the flylord kills a kurnoth and deals like 1 more wound to the unit. He scores 2 points and it's 2-0 nurgle into Sylvaneth turn 1 Alrighty, he's pinned me back and I gotta start figuring out how I'm gonna deal with his fast battleline flyers before they start stealing my objectives. I also declare monstrous takeover since I hate putting all my eggs in the slay the warlord basket. I figure Alarielle would be able to get into the flies, maybe with a treelord, and do enough damage to pretty much eliminate them if I got a double turn. I metamorphosize a beast of nurgle to death, resurrect a Kurnoth! and can't summon any dryads so nothing else exciting happens. I summon 3 sword kurnoths to help safeguard my back right objective and encourage Rotigus to stay in his table quarter without getting to all my goodies. Shooting is weak and nothing of note is done. Everyone except Alarielle fails to charge (even with a reroll) and between her and the kurnoths, the flylord is dead and I kill another bug. Alarielle takes about 4 wounds. I score 2 points and it's a tie game into turn 2. I win priority and decide to take it, after much hemming and hawing Turn 2: I declare broken ranks on the last fly from the right unit and prepare to hit the flies with basically everything I have. I summon 10 dryads and some trees which was very helpful. Larry flies overhead to rear charge the flies and the treelords/kurnoths move up to bonk a bunch of flies. The kurnoths run up to kill the last beast of nurgle and force my opponent to spend at least a turn dealing with them. I also yeet some tree revs to the back left corner of the board to threaten sniping that home objective from the blightlords and getting them away from a possible rotigus long bomb charge. Shooting does nothing (frickin Larry always chokes the wound rolls). Combat is -ok-. The last fly dies to Larry for the bonus battle tactic point and I kill another fly from the other unit, but I don't wipe them, which means that the disease counters are gonna start being a real problem. The last fly chips a couple wounds on the Kurnoth and mortal wounds chip a few more onto various monsters. A Beast actually kills a kurnoth with disease but is wiped out. I score 3 points and it's 5-2 Sylvaneth. Okey dokey, time for the counterpunch. He declares aggressive expansion for the 2 automatic points. Magic chips some more disease point around my army and some mortal wounds to Alarielle and the bottom treelord. He moves up to kill my right kurnoth hunters and to engage Larry with the blightlords. He also summons a beast which charges Alarielle too. Combat is not ideal, I roll 6 1s with Alarielle and she ends the turn with 5 wounds remaining after combat and disease. The last fly dies and my summoned kurnoths are obliterated. He burns an objective and scores 2 battle tactic points making it: 5-6 Nurgle. He wins priority which is real bad for me Turn 3: I remove his back right objective. He declares bring it down on Larry. Wheel of contagion is no piling in or heroic actions. Magic does the usual smattering of mortal wounds. Rotigus moves up and ends 11" away from the summoned dryads and a treelord. A casual 11" charge later and the treelord and dryads are now fighting the demon I was hoping to have pinned in his back corner for maybe like, I don't know, another turn or so. Combat is absolutely brutal. Alarielle dies to disease. the kurnoths are engaged but can't fight, the treelord fighting rotigus takes 11 wounds, more MW are sprinkled around my very bracketed treelords, and he burns his back objective for 4 points. Score is 5-13 Nurgle (2 for bring it down, 1 for monster kill, 4 objective points). Ooooook so I need to start scoring some points. I finest hour the TLA and declare Aggressive expansion for 2 automatic points. Magic is useless and I fail to heal anything. I throw the treelord and TLA into the blightlords and beast to keep them away from my home objective. Everything else sort of shuffles and I re-teleport the tree revs to my back corner to guarantee me battleline bodies on my objective. Kurnoth retreat out of combat since they can't actually engage since there's no piling in. I retreat out with the treelord who just needs to survive a single 4+ roll and the dryads to keep holding my back right objective and be a real bother to rotigus. Shooting is useless and I don't do anything. Combat involves me murdering the beast and 1 blightlord (turns out super bracketed treelords are not great). Oh, my treelord dies to disease, of course. I then burn my back center and right objectives, figuring that layering units in front of the leftmost one could give me an 8 point swing on turn 5. Score is 15-13 Sylvaneth (2 for battle tactic, 8 for objective burning) I win priority into turn 4, which is a very very big deal. Turn 4: Time for some Sylvaneth shenanigans! I declare savage spearhead. I fail to heal anything but do summon 10 more dryads! I yeet the spite revs into his territory for easy savage spearhead. The back right unit of 2 is outside Rotigus' line of sight and also outside the picture but I promise they're there. Otherwise the Kurnoths move up to try and kill the frickin blightlords. They don't. He casually kills a treelord with disease though. At this point I do some fancy mental math and realize that burning my objective would pretty much seal the game for me. Score is now 21-14 Sylvaneth (2 for savage spearhead, 4 for objective burning, he gets 1 for monster kill) He declares slay the warlord. Rotigus moves up to charge the roadblock dryads. A beast of nurgle is summoned. My treelord ancient dies to disease and all the blightlords are finally killed. He scores 2 points for killing my treelord ancient but already had the bonus point for the battle round for a monster kill. Score is 21-16 Sylvaneth. At this point we call it. He wins turn 5 priority but can only score a maximum of 3 points for savage spearhead after metamorphosis on horticulx. I also get my grand strategy because my branchwraith lives and he doesn't get his since all his battleline is dead. SYLVANETH WIN Afterthoughts: Nurgle chip damage is truly incredible and the bane of my style of army. Multiple monsters all taking 2-3 mortal wounds/turn means my save stacking is useless. The inconsistency of sylvaneth magic again rears its ugly head as I had a great turn 1 magic phase, and then never really did much else. Dryad summoning is incredible and always has a place. I underestimated the amount of chip damage that Larry was gonna take and her continued lack of ward save means she is always in danger of being mortal wounded to death. That being said, she still produced some much-needed early game value and I'll still take her (plus her model is insanely cool)! Treelords struggle in this matchup. I may drop a treelord and change my existing kurnoth unit back to scythes, which would allow me to add another scythe unit to the army. This way, if I need another treelord, I can just summon one in with Alarielle. The game seems to have accelerated to the point where an extra battle point from ferocious advance will likely be offset by losing a monster to mortal wounds. Doing this can also make this list a 2-drop, which would allow me waaay more control over turn order, something I very much like to have. All in all, I'm reasonably pleased with how this turned out. I'm a little worried that my gnarlroot iteration may not have the output needed to handle some of the A-tier lists and with the general preponderance of mortal wounds, save stacking has lost a lot of utility. But! There are so many interesting options available to Sylvaneth and I really like how the army pilots so expect more from them in the near future!

Army Faction: Sylvaneth - Army Subfaction: Gnarlroot - Grand Strategy: Beast Master - Triumphs: +1 to wound LEADER Branchwraith (95)* - Artefacts: Chalice of Nectar - Spells: Verdurous Harmony Alarielle the Everqueen (740)* - Spells: Throne of Vines Treelord Ancient (280) - General - Command Traits: Nurtured by Magic - Spells: Regrowth BATTLELINE Spite-Revenants (70)* Tree-Revenants (80)* Tree-Revenants (80)* BEHEMOTH Treelord (180) Treelord (180) ENDLESS SPELL Spiteswarm Hive (40) TERRAIN Awakened Wyldwood (0) OTHER Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Greatswords (225)* CORE BATTALIONS: *Battle Regiment Linebreaker TOTAL POINTS: (1970/2000) Gonna take this against some new Nurgle later today! It's very similar to what I usually take, but the new points drops allow me to take greatsword hunters instead of scythe hunters. It's a small change, but likely a pretty helpful one!

Just because stormcast has better options doesn't mean that your paladins are useless. They're just suboptimal. because you've already made up your mind to be as salty as possible that sometimes you have to acknowledge that a unit has downsides, you have stronger units easily available, and for some reason the stormcast community doesn't like to post detailed battle reports. yes, annihilators are much better. Imperator Relictor with translocation 5 Protectors 2x5 Retributors 6 Grandhammer Annihilators 6 Raptors list is a 1 drop Not a 5-0 list but certainly one that will give your opponent a good game. Also certainly not optimized but it does a good job showing what I mean. You take really good units- Imperator, Relictor, Annihilators, and Raptors, and then mix in some suboptimal ones (paladins) to see how they do, making adjustments as necessary. You're probably gonna lose some games, but hey, you'll definitely win some too. Give it a try and post the battle report with pictures so we can all learn from the game. I do that all the time over in the Deepkin subforum and encourage others to do the same. It lets the community see how things work in the field and provides much more detail than "terrible list, will never work". Heck, I've got like 18 battle reports in this fashion posted on facebook (and a good number posted on TGA) across multiple different faction fb groups and the response has been nothing but positive. It also lets others see how to handle certain matchups, how to do certain techniques (like the stormfiend alley-oop), and as long as you can swallow your pride and post your losses (my poor skaven ), it can be a really helpful educational tool. Or you can just wallow in salt that not everything is exactly how you'd like and there's no hope and you only have 17 competitive warscrolls and why even bother playing or testing anything else.

sure, here's how you can do it. Deepstrike them and then make the 9" charge, spending a CP if necessary for a roughly 50/50 shot of immediately making it into combat. Or do that, fail, get the double turn and then have your 5" rerollable charge if needed. Sometimes you have to deal with variance in the game. Just because stormcast has better options doesn't mean that your paladins are useless. They're just suboptimal. If you really like them you can absolutely make them work. You'll just have to accept that better options exist. And you're absolutely correct that resurrection isn't free. Sometimes you can't get everything you want and have to build a list with tough decisions where you sacrifice certain things. Good news is that Gardus got cheaper for a super casual bubble of amulet of destiny across much of your army if you really really want to footslog. Oh you can also take things like raptors to shoot off big threats. Maybe just start with a single unit of paladins in an otherwise optimized army and experiment with swapping things out to see if there are ways you can force your opponent to focus on other things first, allowing your paladins to teleport across the table in peace. Haven't seen any battle reports of people trying this out but boy have I heard a lot about how terrible paladins are.

Yeah, I'd like to be able to take every warscroll in my books in super competitive lists too. Everyone would. It's just amusing that in a book with roughly as many warscrolls as GA:Death, multiple extremely strong builds (shootcast, dragoncast, annihilatorcast, whatever), people are still complaining. In fact, in an update that dropped the points of some SCE special characters and removed one of the ways to protect the big beasties from them, people are still complaining that it didn't do ENOUGH. I haven't seen ANY battle reports with pictures and analysis in the stormcast subforum. Absolutely no attempt at actually playtesting alternative builds besides people just reporting "oh yeah i did this and it didn't work". The SCE community seems only united in their bitterness that not every unit is an absolute wrecking ball at all things. You want the other 62!!!! warscrolls in your book to be competitive? Maybe actually try them in fusion builds with proven pieces. Find synergies. Heck, you've got a podcast that's pretty darn good. Throw some batreps on there. Also not sure what you mean by not being able to get foot units into combat. You may not be able to choose the exact combat, but Gotrek managed just fine with 4" movement and he doesn't even get a deepstrike or teleport. Oh, you can also resurrect them for free in a couple different ways to help mitigate chip damage.

Yeahh so the storm is way way way better than the sea. Output: Storm NOT charging has 4 attacks at 3/2/-2/2, 4 attacks at 3/2/-1/1 that gives a flat conditional +1 to hit against a little hero, and then 2d6 at 4/3/-/1. You gotta remember that the +1 to wound buffs himself too!!!! Sea has 3 attacks at 3/3/-2/2. 3 attacks at 3/3/-1/1, and 2d6 at 4/4/-/1. D3 shooting attacks at 3/3/-2/2 isn't reliable enough to do what you need him to do and bravery aura is pretty irrelevant for the MSU deepkin who don't really deal with bravery. Role in army: What deepkin want to do is kill things very quickly. +1 to wound means the majority of your army goes from a 3+ to a 2+ which is the magic number of erasing everything. That increase is a 100% relative increase in the success rate of wound rolls (you go from failing to wound on a 1 or 2 to failing a wound only on a 1). The stats may not seem intuitive but that's how it goes. The storm also heals when it does the thing you want it to, which is very very important. You want them to charge and when they do they get lots of bonuses! Synergy! The sea has anti-synergy. You want it to cast reliably, but when you reroll the casting roll, you don't get to heal. You also don't even get to heal in your opponent's turn since his ability only procs in YOUR hero phase. I love the warscroll spells of the sea, -1 to hit on enemies is great! But it's a random number of affected units, and goes off on a 7, and you don't get bonuses to cast (and rerolling means you can't heal). There's really no place for the sea in a deepkin army that wins through fast overwhelming output, while the storm not only contributes to the WHOLE ARMY via his aura, but also can get stuck in and fills the flying retreat and charge healing beatstick role that deepkin otherwise lack. Easy alternative to the Sea: Meanwhile I can just use a tidecaster to reverse the tides, speeding up my entire army and increasing their output (SYNERGY)! While also having him put an enemy unit at -1 to hit, just like the sea! And with master of magic, he can reroll his cast and dispel, just like the sea. He's not as good at it, obviously, but he's super cheap and actually adds the enormous army wide buff of tide reversal while also letting me take extremely fast shooting screens as troops (SYNERGY)!! TL;DR: The sea just kind of sticks out like a sore thumb of "man, I wish this was good because I own the model and it looks sweeeeeet but it really doesn't help my army do the stuff it wants to do".

You guys know that it's like comically easy for stormcast to kill kragnos, right? And that there's a slight difference between a 3d6 charge and a 4-5" charge after teleporting? And that dragons still get their hero phase move/charge? SCE are insanely mobile with a reliable teleport of any unit, ability to deepstrike across the army, ability to deepstrike and auto-make a 12" charge, etc, etc. You also have things like fulminators, dragons, chariots, etc, etc. Plus some of the best shooting in the game that escaped the update completely unharmed. And if your reponse is to just "kill the raptors", then I know you have no idea what you're talking about. They can deploy in the sky to avoid the alpha and are outrageously maneuverable with the teleport and 30" range. Like every post is just SCE players being extremely salty that their army isn't the most broken thing imaginable. There are multiple competitive builds that will absolutely compete at the highest level and SCE are absolutely an A-tier army. And in case you're wondering, here are 2 builds just right off the cuff that are extremely competitive: Incantor, relictor, drake hero, 4 dragons, 6 raptors, 3 aetherwings. Flavor to taste. Incantor, Relictor, imperator, 9 grandhammer annihilators, 6 raptors, aetherwings. Flavor to taste. Feel free to swap out whatever with fulminators since they're also unbelievably good. Meanwhile armies like Skaven, Gitz, and BoC are still practically unplayable after this update.

Eidolon is always on the brink of being a Big Damage Dealer but never really makes it. Maximizing his output with Fuethan and possibly all out attack will put you on 2srr1/2s/-2/3 with the big spear, 2rr1/2s/-1/1 with the little spear and then the fish attacks. That's pretty much the most he can do and it is a LOT but not quite mawkrusha level. His main utility (IMO) is the ability to do moderate to severe damage and then retreat and charge into ideal targets. He doesn't solo big stuff but rather goes in with a shark unit and kill it together.

I usually show up in a "Fear the Shark Side" shirt and shark socks.

I guess I'm alone in thinking a 4-1 result is pretty darn good? Statement I was responding to was that it was a "terrible list". We'll see how it turns out after the FAQ.

wow this comment sure didn't age well. Maybe you should play some actual games against competent opponents 😄 Yep, this list looks super good- 4 dragons, 6 raptors, and the classic stormcast cadre of characters. Only difference between this and my hypothesized list is that it dropped the aetherwings and judicators in order to run a single unit of 4 dragons and keep battleline. I don't own the codex so am not sure if the Draconis only lets you take 1 unit of battleline dragons, in which case I think this battleline composition is pretty much optimal. If not, it's gonna be interesting to see if the 1x4 ends up being preferred over the 2x2. I personally still like the 2x2 with aetherwings if that's legal. Obviously everything has to be in a 1 drop either way. It's nice seeing the 4-1 results and I'm sure some 5-0s will be coming once the list gets fine-tuned.

Alrighty, league final against a VERY competitive Disciples of Tzeentch army. So of course I took 8 sharks because that's the way I like to live: My List Fuethan Eidolon of the Storm with Cloud of Midnight Tidecaster general with master of magic 2x10 Reavers 1x10 Thralls 4x2 Sharks with 1 net and 1 harpoon per unit 1x3 Ishlaen Guard 1940 points That's right. No turtle. Only sharks. These little rascals are point-for-point the hardest hitting unit in the deepkin codex and far outstrip the turtle in terms of speed and output per point. Why would I need a turtle aura of +1 save or +1 to hit when I just hit someone with 8 sharks? Survivability comes from the fact that you have to kill 8 sharks that are absolutely killing you at the same time. Tzeentch List Host Arcanum Kairos Lord of Change with stuff Changecaster with fanged circlet Curseling Blue Scribes 2x10 Pinks 1x3 screamers Cogs Umbral Spellportal This list is the NPE experience personified. It's got a million spells, a million pinks that don't play by the rules of God or man, and it can summon more of them without any trouble. It is truly an immovable object. But I have 8 sharks... Deployment We roll up Veins of Ghur which is not ideal but honestly playing objectives is for suckers since my only objective is to throw 8 sharks directly into his army and see what he does. Deployment is pretty straightforward. He castles up ok and I do think I see an opening to get to the chickens but Kairos auto-changing charge rolls scares me a lot and I know that a double turn would be reeeeally bad if he gets it. So I let him go first. Turn 1 (Tzeentch) He ferocious advances his big birds and the changecaster. He then casts 14 spells including spellportal and kills 6 reavers with Gift of Change. He also metamorphosis his changecaster for the bonus battle tactic point. He summons his 6 screamers and they prepare to screen as best they can. He also helpfully suicides his screamers into the sharks, hoping they'll tie the sharks up in combat for a turn. Sooooo the spawn and screamers die horribly and do nothing since he activated the screamers first. I do get to cheese some extra shark movement with the pile-in though which was cool. He gets 3 points. Score is 0-3 Tzeentch Turn 1 (Deepkin) Ok time to get all up in his face. Tzeentch is the sort of army where if you play cagily, you lose to summoning and unending magic. You have to fully commit to killing the pinks and overwhelm their target priority so that they just can't deal with the threats. To that end, I declare ferocious advance and immediately charge up the table. Shooting is ok. I stop pile ins on the horrors and am able to make a bunch of charges. Unfortunately I get a little bit caught up on the horror screens but I sneak one shark into the backfield and do 4 wounds to the Blue Scribes, forcing him to use some destiny dice to keep him alive. The Pre-combat phase looked like this: This is where things get suuuper annoying. Pink horrors don't count as being slain for some reason so sharks don't get the extra bite. They also get a flat -1 to hit if they're close to heroes which means that I'm hitting on 4s, rerolling ones. This is very bad for me since I have terrible luck and rely on rerolling everything at all times. I kill 26 horrors from one unit and like 14 from another. The screamers all die horribly. I take a couple wounds in response across all the sharks. Also important to know is that the rubber fishing lures are blues and brimstone horrors because ain't nobody got time to paint all that. I score 2 points 2-3 Tzeentch I win priority!!! Turn 2 (Deepkin) Allllrighty time to try and kill everything before his magic goes off and murders me. Objective comes in on my left. I declare broken ranks on the more wounded horror unit because I'm convinced I can murderize them. I move the reavers up and shoot a bunch of shots into stuff, softening up the horror units and freeing up my eels from combat so that they can charge into the big birds. Combat goes and I BARELY kill the marked horror unit. My dice were not friendly and hitting on 4s with no rerolls is absolutely devastating to this army. The eels do 8 wounds to Kairos who is apparently made of tissue paper. The Blue scribes die horribly. I score 4 points for the objective and battle tactic. Turn 2 (Tzeentch) He broken ranks the already wounded reavers. And then it happens. He casts like 15 more spells, does 11 wounds to the eidolon, kills the eel unit, kills the reaver unit, and does some other stuff. I should have used cloud of midnight but I a) didn't expect him to target the eidolon when there were so many sharks around and b) assumed that 2d6+d3+1 wound wouldn't result in 11 damage after a 5+ ward save... He then retreats the chickens back and summons a horror screen around the unwounded Lord of Change. Shooting doesn't really do much and combat results in the other pink horror unit dying. He gets 3 points It's 6-6 now and objectives are coming down. But I win priority and my opponent decides to call the game since I'm gonna kill Kairos and all the characters except for the last lord of change. DEEPKIN WIN

Dragons seem super good

Don't worry, soon you'll be able to see this list everywhere* *barring FAQ changes Incantor Relictor with translocate dragon character with stuff that makes him better 2x2 Dragons 1x5 judicators 6 raptors with crossbows 2 aetherwing units Thunderbolt volley, obviously This is gonna be a huge problem for opponents to deal with since you're a 1 drop that can turn one rip about 30 wounds through a 2+ save anywhere on the table while plopping 4 dragons on any objective you want. The hero phase move, regular move, shoot, and charge is basically unmatched force projection and they're also battleline. The mirror match is kinda tough but you can also pop stuff up in the sky if you're worried about the counter-alpha alpha strike from lumineth. They may kill a dragon unit on turn one but you auto unbind protection and then delete the sentinels with raptors and it's gg. Mega gargs melt to this too. Double shooting raptors and dragon shooting is wild. And then you charge and finish em off with the dragons. Thunder lizard is probably the toughest matchup but you've got mortal wounds everywhere so it's still not really a problem. Nagash dies turn 1 unless he brings immortis guard. He can hurt you a little bit back with his ward save but if he dies turn one you win the game so it's ok. DoK is also a cinch since you just delete the bow snakes turn 1 and it's now morathi vs your entire army. IJ could be tough except you're a one drop and can easily murder a mawkrusha and some pigs on turn one while stand and shooting MW everywhere onto the pigs. Plus you still have raptors. Oh and dragon shooting deletes any small characters. Plus the dragon character can jump around and go wherever you need buffs. In short, barring huge FAQ changes, I really don't see a lot of issues for this list. I'd love to see some battle reports with it though. The hero phase movement is just such an incredible buff for the battleline flying beatsticks with mortal wound shooting and a 3+ save. And 9 wounds apiece wounds. And they're monsters. And they don't bracket. And they ignore spells on a 4+.

Yeah it's pretty easy to get the predators domain and people have never actually tried to stop me getting it. Namarti positioning can be kinda tough to manage. I find myself leapfrogging them with my hammers after they've absorbed the initial shooting/any potential charges. I really never find myself needing them to screen after turn 1 and by holding them back, I can prevent cheeky deepstrikes from my opponent. I almost never run them as a single line. You're one arcane bolt away from disaster if you do that. I find that 2 offset ranks of 5 is more than enough to a) screen my hammers and b) prevent sneaky pile in from opponents that would love to pile in around units to engage high value targets. That being said, the next level play here is to use the Eidolon to BAIT your opponent into thinking you've made a mistake and then engaging the eidolon with an alpha strike hammer, resulting in you popping cloud of midnight and then erasing whatever engaged you on your next turn. I did this in my most recent stormcast game and it resulted in me losing a thrall unit and wiping out an Annihilator Grandhammer unit on turn one, both removing a hammer unit of his, and reducing his ability to contest objectives in the mid-game. Memorizing warscrolls is the number one thing. Deepkin don't really roll that many dice at once (outside of reavers) and your games tend to end a lot faster than other armies. Just memorize your army and practice practice practice!

Love these writeups and seeing you get more comfortable with the list! @13_rolls Ok so for GS I generally actually go for hold more terrain pieces than my opponent (you can use on of the old CP markers to keep track if you want). Since my army is so much faster and tends to pin my opponent deep in their own territory, it's really super simple to ensure that of the 8 pieces of terrain on the table, I hold about 5 or 6. That being said, GS has actually only ever come up in one game where I held on to a 2 point lead against the 8th? place SCE list from the Austin GT in a tourney prep game. I would caution against beastmaster because, even though the turtle is quite hardy, losing it basically means you're looking at an enormous point deficit that can be extremely hard to come back from. I've also started using the turtle far more aggressively, as opponents tend to jump at the chance to kill it and then get subsequently rolled by sharks, who are actually far more efficient damage dealers for their points. The Soulscryer ability can be a little tricky. Even though it's only against one unit, you can still ENGAGE multiple units as demonstrated here: I declared the phoenix guard as the soulscryer target but was still able to engage the handgunner unit behind them (the eidolon killed like 15 before this picture was taken) and the Anointed on Frostheart. I really only ever use the soulscryer on turn 1 because at that point my goal is to absolutely engage one important unit and maybe a couple less important ones. What you don't want to do is yeet your whole army into multiple fighty units since you can lose the activation wars on turn one. If you go first on turn 2... yeet away since you're guaranteed to fight first with tide reversal. Deepkin absolutely struggle with objectives which is why it's important to pin your opponent with your fast fighty units so they can't get there. Alternatively, just kill everything. Deepkin are an army that tend to go down on points on turn one and then erase everything on turns 2 and 3, allowing you easy points afterwards. Against nurgle specifically, murdering the heroes is really important to stop the buffs. I actually think I posted a writeup with pictures of my game against a nurgle demon army a little while ago that kinda goes into how to stop them. Here's a picture from that game that really demonstrates how to stop them getting to objectives. As you can see, there's no way his plaguebearers can punch through to get to the central or far right objective. I took first turn in this game because I knew that if I got doubled, he still wouldn't be able to kill enough to get out of his deployment zone. The eels are there so that if glottkin made a run for the objective, I could fly over with them and murder his support heroes (which is exactly what happened). I'm a very aggressive turtle player because it really shines on turns 1-3 where its output is maximized. I also find that throwing the turtle into large groups of "elite" rend -1 infantry like phoenix guard, stormvermin, etc, etc basically ensures a very favorable trade. People are super scared of the 6 MW bites and don't like to risk losing monsters to the turtle which means that if I go second and get the turtle involved ASAP, I can guarantee 3 rounds of super favorable combats before the high rend stuff hits me. That's why I always go for Ancient as the mount trait. As for the auto run, that's a bit of a flexible decision and not obviously clear cut. I tend to do it on the Eidolon or Turtle most of the time, only really using it for sharks when I see a ridiculously good opening. Making sure to trigger the bonus bites shouldn't be too hard when you've got 20 reavers, the turtle, and generally 1-2 harpoon launchers. The turtle may seem slow but 10" + 6" auto run + 7ish" rerollable charge + 3" soulscryer buff +3" pile in is an insane amount of movement and I've never had any trouble picking engagements. Honestly though, the Eidolon is the best target since he doesn't lose shooting utility and his retreat and charge while healing is absolutely insane. People don't see it coming and it's won me several games on its own. Turn one, eidolon goes about 27" into a screening unit and erases it. Opponent turn one, they either ignore the eidolon or commit heavily to killing it. I pop cloud of midnight and relax. If I get turn 2, Eidolon retreats into the backline and murderizes everything. If I don't get priority, I still fight first with everything so he usually survives the attacks back, doesn't bracket, and then retreats on my turn and murderizes everything. And yes, the Eidolon and turtle tag team is insane. If you throw any combination of eidolon, turtle, and 2-man shark units into a target, it's generally gonna die horribly. I've got my league final this weekend where I'm actually not gonna take the turtle and instead take 7 sharks. I know I'll be playing tzeentch and expect to see Kairos and another lord of change. I'll keep y'all posted.... My list: Fuethan as usual Eidolon with cloud Tidecaster general with master of magic Soulscryer 2x10 reavers 1x10 thralls 3x2 sharks 1x1 shark 1x3 ishlaen 4 drops with 2 units of 2 sharks and the ishlaen unit in hunters. Might swap out the soulscryer for another shark to make it an even 8. Haven't decided yet lol.

I actually tend to do more of a multi-layered approach. You can look at some of my previous comments to see how I like to deploy (the only time where screening really matters for deepkin). In short, I usually put the namarti up front because I don't really care if they live or die and I don't run too many eels. In my tournament list I have 3 eels I use to go after wizards or to charge into big hitters to tie them up (2+ unrendable save on the charge within the turtle aura). Using the eels for shooting screens is super reasonable if you run a lot of them. I just find that the eels are too important to get chipped down by shooting, especially if my opponent has mortal wound shooting. Reavers are great because they're movement 8 objective grabbers that reroll runs and produce value from range. Using them to chip one or two wounds off stuff before you hit them with sharks is absolutely incredible and they can do a surprising amount of damage when buffed (even without curse). 30 shots at 4srr1(fuethan first turn)/3s (eidolon)/-/1 does 2/4/6/8 damage through a 2+/3+/4+/5+ save profile and is also a great anti-gotrek approach that doesn't really require a lot of resource allocation. Even doing 1-2 wounds to him is very very impactful. Plus, forcing opponents to spend CP in the shooting phase is big value with deepkin because generally there are 3 things every opponent wants to do against the list that I bring and AoD in shooting means they gotta make a tough choice later. Ok, so quick command point sidebar: Usually I like to go second which means I get 3 and my opponent gets 2 CP. I never assume I get an extra CP and I always assume they get 1 per battle round. On their turn my opponents usually use 1 cp for -something-. Can be AoA on shooting to ensure they clear a screen, can be auto run 6, can be whatever, but usually they use 1 cp. I also usually use 1 cp- redeploy or battleshock for namarti, or whatever. This means that on turn 2 I'll be at 3 CP and my opponent will be at 3 CP. They're gonna want to use redeploy, all out defense in combat, and battleshock immunity. If the reavers can cheekily force them to pop a CP in the shooting phase, then that means they're forced to make a BIG sacrifice later on in the turn. I find that even experienced opponents are pretty bad at managing command points. I know exactly how I'm going to use my 3 CP at the start of my turn. One goes to auto run something 6" since I can still charge and it guarantees me board control. One goes into rerolling a failed charge and the last one goes into All out Attack. If I don't need the failed charge CP then it'll go into All out Defense or Battleshock immunity if I lose a shark in combat. It's super rare to lose a second shark to battleshock (need a 6 on the BS test), but it does happen and is absolutely a feelsbad moment.

After you take a hit that hard on his turn one you have to aggressively counterpunch or you lose anyways. The turtle probably wouldn't survive that charge if he had priority but he could charge you anyways with how the turtle was placed had he won priority. You might as well go all out aggro for the change to win the game versus play super defensively and lose anyways Screens aren't gonna survive anyways, even with +1 to save. You need need need need need to have the eels in the turtle aura for 3+ unrendable saves. Like that is absolutely mandatory for them. You can't count on all out defense because he can roar you and the eels weren't in hunters. If they are, then you really don't need the turtle aura for them anyways since they'll be on a 3+ unrendable. I didn't see a second unit of sharks on your board but they should have absolutely gone all in on your turn one or two against either the boars or the mawkrusha. Countercharging the eidolon in is an automatic response because he kills the mawkrusha, gets countercharged by the mawkrusha and boars, pops cloud of midnight, and now it's your turn and he's completely wasted that combat phase That's what I mean when I say he wastes combat phases for your opponent. No problemo! Just keep practicing! That was a really tough game regardless.

ok, @13_rolls definitely a tough game. The new orruks are real scary and the 2 mawkrusha lists are no joke! What scenario were you playing? You seem to be deployed super far up and boats have to be wholly within your territory. You can use them as "anchor" points on the sides of your deployment to make landing flyers on top of them challenging to help slow down the orruk alpha strike. Against an Orruk deployment like that ( I don't know how many drops he or you had), I would recommend a refused flank deployment if you know he is going first. Make it difficult for him to get both the Grunta units into combat on turn one. The thralls should have been back a little bit to benefit from the tortle, but it probably wouldn't have mattered. I'm very surprised to hear that you lost all the eels in one round of combat since they're on a 3+ unrendable save. And yeah, that's a mawkrusha sized spot in front of the sharks :(. Just one of those lessons everyone learns sometime. If he engaged the eidolon and focused all his attacks on the eels, you should have been able to pile in with the eidolon and smack him a little on his first turn. The turtle should also have charged in to the mawkrusha on your turn one and tried to destroy it. Between the free chip damage on your turn from the eidolon and the turtle + eidolon charge on your turn 1, I'm confident the mawkrusha would have died. Then on your turn 2 you can charge and kill the other mawkrusha like you described with the turtle and eidolon and now it's his pigs vs the turtle and eidolon. Looking at the board state, one unit of gruntas was too far away to get into your goon squad and with the tides flipped, his turn 2 would have meant that anything he charged into you/was engaged with would die since you're always fighting first. It was certainly an uphill battle, but the double into turn 2 gave you a very real chance. You just have to be extremely aggressive with deepkin, even if you've taken a ton of damage. Isolate one big thing at a time and kill it. Don't engage his whole army at once. But yeah, you were in a super tough spot after that alpha strike. That's why I like the soulscryer so much. You can hold back some real counterpunch off the table turn one and let him kill chaff, then come after him with the meat of your army. His turn one would have been killing thralls and maybe eels. Then your turn one the soulscryer comes in with leviadon and sharks, killing a mawkrusha while the eidolon goes after a pig unit. You win priority and murder the other mawkrusha and pig unit and you win the game. Deepkin is a super aggressive punch/counterpunch army. If stuff isn't engaged it needs to be zoning out the enemy's counterpunch. But your ideas were totally correct and your post game analysis was spot on! IJ is a tough matchup too.

no problem! I love this army and play it a lot haha. It definitely requires some practice though, but when it all comes together it's a thing of beauty!

Soulscryer reliability is because of the +3" to charge Turtle's favorite snack is -1 rend infantry because he ignores -1 rend with the ancient trait which makes him super duper survivable. Infantry also tends to have worse armor saves so my -1 rend fins that do a ton of damage can put in more work. It's pretty opponent dependent but I only play take all comers lists so I prefer the soulscryer. Could go either way. Eidolon and Cloud lets you take risks and not be punished for mistakes. Annihilators deepstrike and charge him? Pop cloud so he takes no damage, retreat out of combat, and then charge them. Immediate 570 point swing in my favor (I keep 330 points of Eidolon and kill 240 points of annihilators). If my opponent bunches up I can charge him into a soft target, kill a bunch of infantry, and now my opponent has to decide if he wants to countercharge me and risk wasting that combat phase with a hammer, only for me to retreat out and pick a new target, or leave me alone, in which case I keep the cloud and can still retreat out of combat and then pick a new combat. Unleash hell from raptors? Pop cloud in charge phase and charge right in. That also shuts down unleash hell from that unit for anything else in my army. The list goes on and on. It's extremely useful. I never charge the eidolon into a combat where I then pop the cloud. I make my opponent have to play around it. And yes, I used to take +2 wounds, but found that master of magic was better so now only take that.

Sort of! It really depends on your opponent. Ok so here's more information than you could possibly want. Deployment vs a slow army with decent magic: Here I put 2 sharks and the turtle into deepstrike since I can see that my opponent left his back flank open. I know I have to alpha strike him down before he puts down a bunch of buffs so I stack the eidolon fairly centrally to ensure his aura covers the table. I put a shark unit at the bottom to push the left flank if I need to but also to push the center with the eidolon because of how fast the sharks can go. The eels are central but will push opposite whatever side the turtle/sharks come on in order to delay/block whatever my opponent has on that flank. I believe he ignored the eels who went and ate a wizard in this game. Reavers are deployed up in order to eat any shooting they may have if I don't go first and to push up and try to snipe wounds off of stuff that I want the sharks to eat. Against a shooty army: This is before his pregame move and since he gets to determine who takes the first turn, I had to deploy pretty defensively. In case he elects to go first, I need to have my whole army screened from his shooting. Lengthwise eels and reavers guarantee he's gonna be wasting shooting into those units instead of my hammers. I didn't run the soulscryer here so you see that the Eidolon and turtle are pretty central with the sharks off on the flanks (still within aura range). Again, you're fast enough to really push wherever you see openings, which is exactly what I did here when I was given the first turn. Sharks can automatically go 20" and charge on the first turn in my list, which is just a truly heinous threat range. Vs a tanky army A very important aspect of AoS 3.0 (in my opinion) is the ability to project force across multiple objectives. Pressuring every objective forces your opponent to either split up to try and fight you for every one of them, or they just give up and play defensively, losing them them the game. Here I again put the eidolon and turtle in the center with sharks on the left flank and also behind the turtle. this means I can easily attack an objective with really any number of those hammer units. Without trees, my opponent is actually very slow and only has 2 hammers (kurnoth and durthu) that can threaten me. I also knew I was going to give him the first turn and hoped that he would overextend to try and capture objectives before I pinned him in his backfield. And that's exactly what he did, teleporting the kurnoths to the bottom objective, away from the majority of the fight and leaving me an opening to move the sharks 20", charge, and kill his Warsong Revenant. Then I consolidated power onto the mid and upper objective with the turtle and other sharks able to push wherever they need to go. Since the Eidolon has cloud of midnight, I really don't care if he gets multi charged by durthu and stuff since they won't hurt him and then I can eat everything turn 2 when I fight first. vs a shooty quick army Deployment is 24" away so I know I'm outside his threat range while also within my threat range. Eidolon and turtle are central for auras and I deploy soulscryer and one shark unit off the table. I give my opponent turn 1 since he really has to come to me or else I'll be able to easily make it to him and dictate the flow of combats. The Soulscryer adds even more reliability to the army, especially since most people loooove to have a big blocking unit of -1 rend infantry which is the tortle's favorite snack. Sharks were set up off table and also on left side because I knew I would erase that greatsword unit with the sharks. I also wanted to ensure that the phoenix lord would have to tread lightly because sharks absolutely can rip through a lot of his wounds. And sure enough, I was able to stop the phoenix guard piling in and then hit his entire army with the turtle and eidolon. +3" to charge is absolutely insane value. And finally, a fighty castle Same story. Central Eidolon and turtle for auras with flanking sharks and more sharks off screen. Eels are opposite initial flanking sharks but are fast enough to go wherever they need to be. Eidolon can be super aggressive with cloud of midnight and basically cost my opponent a turn by himself. And that's exactly what happened. My opponent was too bunched up and ended up getting trapped by the eidolon for a turn while the turtle munched through basically everything. The Eidolon also then retreated and charged and murdered a ton of stuff. Even though the left sharks died, which was real bad, That unit of 6 minotaurs, the doombull, a smaller unit of 3 minos, and a summoned unit of 3 minos were all functionally removed from the game due to the amount of blocking I did with the sharks and reavers. You'll also notice the ishlaen have moved to the center. Thats so they can further block off the left flank if need be (I ended up not needing them since all the BoC on the right side died on the next turn). Reactive deployment is super duper important and there's really no standardized way to go about it. I guess the trend for me is to either put the turtle and eidolon centrally with a shark unit on the opposite side of my deepstrikers, or to deepstrike the turtle and some sharks while still keeping the Eidolon central for aura maximization. The whole army is insanely fast, so you can be a little more aggressive in how you deploy.

Sure thing! A lot of what makes deepkin good is the number of buffs you get and they can get confusing. So, to start, sharks are 3 bites at 3/3/-2/2. I take a decent amount of chip shooting (mostly reavers) to make sure that I get at least one wound through on the target which takes them to 4 bites. Fuethan lets you reroll ones on turns 1 and 3 when you reverse the tides (which I always do with a tidecaster general). So now we're at 4 bites at 3srr1/3/-2/2, But wait, fuethan also lets all mounts reroll ones to wound at all times. So, the sharks are now 4 bites at 3srr1/3srr1/-2/2. That's good but not perfect. So I always take an eidolon of the storm for a nice 18" bubble of flat out +1 to wound all the time for everything. So sharks are 4 bites at 3srr1/2srr1/-2/2. To complete the package, I pop all out attack on the sharks and we end up with 4 bites at 2srr1/2srr1/-2/2. Apply those same buffs to everything in the army (except the all out attack) and you end up with most everything hitting and wounding with huge damage. The mounted guys and eidolon don't get the reroll ones to wound since they aren't mounts (except for the eidolon cloak). These multiple overlapping buffs are why the battle reports I post here (and on my facebook page!) usually end around turn 3. Some other important points: If you're playing the style of list I like, you absolutely have to reverse the tides. Deepkin lose wars of attrition so you need to be in combat early and killing stuff before they can get juiced up. The rerolling ones to hit only work on turns 1 and 3, NOT on turn 2 (high tide). This is mildly irritating and I've thought about flexing in an akhelian king for more reliable rerolls but it just doesn't seem worth the points. But yeah, your opponent really can't stop you from layering these buffs if you pay attention to how you set the army up and plan your movement. When that happens it's absolutely unstoppable. Getting the double turn into high tide should essentially be an automatic win for you. Making your opponents play in fear of losing the priority roll really messes with a lot of people and is a huge benefit of playing deepkin.

3 charging ishlaen popping All Out Defense is still a 2+ unrendable save and is probably one of the best roadblocks available. Hell, even a 3+ unrendable save is a very solid roadblock. You generally just need to isolate a hammer until high tide when you can slam into it with a ton of stuff and kill it immediately. The better saves and wards are why I'm really starting to go heavy on the sharks. 4 attacks at 2srr1/2srr1/-2/2 is unbelievably efficient and wins me most of my games. Two sharks with all out attack on turns 1 and 3 will pretty much remove most models. It's also another reason why the eidolon of the storm is fantastic. -2 rend and 3 damage on the charge is a big big deal. I find the turtle is best suited for hitting blocks of -1 rend infantry. So, in summary: Sharks and Eidolon for things on native 3+ saves or better Turtle for monsters and stuff like phoenix guard/stormvermin Ishlaen for stuff like archaon until I can hit him with at least 1 shark unit and eidolon. I use a shark unit and eidolon as sort of my main roving goon squad to kill whatever they touch. They're super good at it and their combined profiles are almost always: 8 attacks at 2srr1/2srr1/-2/2 12 attacks at 2srr1s/2s/-/1 5 attacks at 3srr1s/2s/-2/3 4 attacks at 3srr1s/2s/-1/1 2d6 attacks at 4srr1s/3srr1s/-/1 Those 3 models will do, on average, 15 wounds through a 2+, 22 wounds through a 3+, and 28 wounds through a 4+.