Beer & Pretzels Gamer
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Posts posted by Beer & Pretzels Gamer
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5 hours ago, Sleepa said:
Blightkings are pretty efficient battleline for their reduced cost in GHB 2020. Not as good at holding objectives, but they can weather some MW and retain high combat effectiveness.
Having had the “fun” of regularly going up against PBKs (with Rend from Blight Cyst and the Harbringer’s CA aftersave) and their exploding 6s I concur that they have to be in contention. Plus I find they provide a very versatile foundation as I’ve seen them stacked with lots of other options from the 3x GUO Thricefold Befoulment to units with Pusgoyles or Plague Drones and even comboing with another Nurgle Battleline, plaguebearers, for a nice Hammer & Anvil style. This also means they are rarely, if ever, inconvenienced by the battleplan.
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37 minutes ago, Kramer said:
Why not a different account on every device?
Could try that. Ideal though would be something that would make it easier to switch from the God’s eye (top down) perspective to camera’s from a more traditional “player perspectives”
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Both the tournaments I would normally play in are cancelled this year. With the situation in America so dynamic and uncertain our gaming group has been trying to rebuild by playing games over Zoom (though if anyone has a video conferencing platform recommendation that can incorporate more than two cameras easily I’m all ears). Our early tests have been successful and we’re slowly increasing the points on the table. Next step is to try a match where two remote players are playing against each other and I am just hosting (i.e. moving the pieces and running the stream).
Early observation is that so far It is definitely biasing our new local “meta” towards Elite builds. Should see a BoC 1K match next week but doubt we’ll scale that to 2K and it is hard for us to picture two Hordes competing in this set-up. An obvious constraint is it only works for armies “onsite” so to speak.
The big question is whether we can run a mini-tournament/league with this set-up or is it more amenable to say Individual Escalation matches vs the host and intermittent remote vs matches as things permit?
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13 hours ago, Kramer said:
For example, The Blades Edge is a great scenario with 6 objectives. The player who goes second chooses to remove one objective from the battlefield. Great mechanic imo. Forces you to make a tough choice.
Just played that Battleplan and confirm that the choice it forces did cause my opponent to choose to go second in the second round to ensure they were able to remove one of my objectives.
Before that we played Total Conquest from GH19 which gives you 2 VP if you take away an objective for an opponent and there are situations there were you’d prefer to go second to either get the double or where you want to avoid giving such an opportunity to your opponent.
As regards basic game mechanics will admit to accidentally discovering one the first couple times I played. Didn’t read close enough to see that VPs were allocated at end of each players turn so we were only allocating at end of each round. That created a huge incentive to go second so you had better control of what the board looked like when scores were tallied.
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With the successful beta testing of the new “Gaming Cage” allowing us to play games over Zoom two of us have started an mini-Escalation League that I am using to learn Beastclaw Raiders (set up works best for elite armies) and he is using to trial the new Nurgle sub-factions from Wrath of the Everchosen (specifically so far, Blessed Sons).
For the 1K game I went with a Boulderhead list:
FLoSH - GENERAL w/Lord of the Beasts, Brand of the Svard & Black Clatterhorn
Huskard on Thundertusk w/Pulverizing Hailstorm and Blood Vulture
2x Mournfang
3x Gluttons
Took a minor victory as I just didn't have enough units to contest the multiple objectives.
In moving up to 1.25K took a Butcher to bring in the Mawpot and 20x Gnoblars because I’d never used them. He used his extra points to upgrade to Blight Cyst to give his three units of PBKs -1 Rend. Between that, the death explosions of Blessed Sons, a a critical failed charge roll early for me I disappointingly took a loss.
Dropping the Gnoblars, as they just don’t work in this set up AND I think the Huskard on Thundertusk (as points wise I just don’t think I get enough out of him) as we move to 1.5K. Thought is to add another FLoSH. If I drop the Gluttons as well (at least until new points are released) can round out list with a Butcher, a Slaughtermaster and three units of 2x Mournfang.
With the battalion he now has fewer drops and with Gutrot Spume he also gets to come in on an edge which has been frustrating my instinctual tactics so far. Think second FLoSH will help prevent him concentrating all his strength on my General but for 1.75K and 2K not sure which direction to go in...
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Had second test of Game Cage last night.
Sorry, no pics as it was a fun & fast moving game so I forgot to take any.Legion of Azgorh’s Execution Herd w/Daemonsmith & Magna Cannon back up against Ogor Mawtribe’s BCR style list with FLoSH, SHBeastriders, and a couple min sized Mournfang pack. BCR jumped out to an early lead but when all of the Execution Herd piled into the FLoSH even the strongest Stone Skeleton couldn’t hold up. Some bad rolls and bad choices saw too much of the Execution Herd emerge intact. Came down to initiative in 4th Round as Beastclaw could’ve put the game away on VPs if they’d gotten to go first or somehow managed to hold on for one more of LoA’s turns but good movement and some strong charge rolls that together got them across the board allowed LoA to take the win.
Success of first streamed game might have been a fluke but smoothness of second game gives me confidence we can start scaling up both the complexity (played GH18’s Duality of Death both times for a simple battleplan and were not fully using all the options in the battletomes as we focused on getting the mechanics down), model count (we’ve been playing very elite builds) and eventually points (both matches 1K). Playing a more detailed battleplan and adding in more faction specific details for a Nurgle vs BCR match tonight.
With a sure way to play giving me some conviction and motivation to get back to painting! Will admit that after the initial burst had slowly shifted towards just assembly and then stopped altogether. That may have had something to do with points uncertainty regarding regarding my current project...
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Execution Herd to BoC, a la Tzaangors and Tzeentch.
Rest to StD, a la Cities.
Think sales of both improve.
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1 hour ago, Baron Klatz said:
I never thought about how much work goes into wargame videos to make sure the cameras can get good views of the field.
Was a big learning experience. Hope is to eventually be able to use it for Battle Reports and Game Reviews but still figuring a lot of things out.
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Finally figured out a workable streaming set-up for two cameras. Top down worked very well but would be good if we could get in some more side perspective cameras as well.
Fun 1K game test run last night. BCR vs Nurgle on a 48”x58” table. Not much terrain either. Will want to run a few more games to build up the proficiency before bumping up to 2K on 6’x4’ but last night gave us confidence we can get there.
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Decided to take my previous “shop class” comment a bit more literal. Designed and built a frame to comfortably go around one of my gaming tables. Objective is to attach multiple webcams (e.g. top down, “players view”, dice tray view, etc.) in order to be able to play games with friends still in lockdown. Will update after beta test...
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On 5/28/2020 at 1:07 AM, Myzyrael said:
The unit benefits from the boons. The added horrors are part of the unit. They get the buff like any other (de)buff currently active on the unit.
Thanks. We were initially luke warm on the Agendas of Anarchy but while it might take a little setting up the Horrors-specific shenanigans were winning us over, as long as all the summoned and restored Horrors in that unit still got benefit.
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Our gaming group hoping to resume playing as soon as reasonable and that will come with premier of Tzeentch.
Tried looking through thread for answers to a couple of questions that have come up regarding the following list:
Hosts Arcanum
Heroes
Curseling General w/Infusion Arcanum
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch w/Glimpse the Future and Aspect of Tzeentch Artefact
Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch w/Arcane Suggestion
The Blue Scribes w/Treason of Tzeentch
The Fateskimmer w/Fold Reality and The Fanged Circlet Artefact
Battleline
20x Pink Horrors
10x Kairic Acolytes
10x Kairic Acolytes
6x Screamers of Tzeentch
3x Screamers of Tzeentch
Endless Spells
Emerald Lifeswarm
Balewind Vortex
Aether-eater Host Battalion
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Q1: Does the up to 6” movement for d3 units for the Command Trait Spell Hunters occur before or after priority has been determined for Turn 1?
Q2: For the Tides of Anarchy Agenda, if accomplished by the unit of Pink Horrors do all subsequently summoned Blues and Brimstones (or for that matter returned Pinks from 1s with Battleshock or the Emerald Lifeswarm) count as 2 models or just the models that were there when the objective was seized?
Q3: Similar question for the Reckless Abandon or Ninefold Dismemberment Agendas re: do all subsequent models summoned/returned get the +1 to melee attacks or +1 to Hit?
With the number of Pinks potentially on the table want to be sure we’re thinking about this new aspect of the tome correctly in relation to them. Thanks in advance for the help here.
Any feedback on list also appreciated.
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8 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:
Also I'm curious because you've said it a couple times - what do you mean by easier to build?
While my primary purchase was Battle for Skull Pass I also purchased some other units at the same time in the hope of building towards a full army (as FLGS owner was honest that I’d struggle to find other players interested at just playing at the smaller scale of the box set, which was primarily thought of as a tutorial). So I had experience with putting together metal models. (In my second go I’ve also had a lot of experience trying to repair broken metal models...). Also, while a lot has converted over to plastic obviously there are still a lot of resin models in AoS and 40K so I’ve spent plenty of time washing, smoothing down, softening up, green stuffing and otherwise assembling those.
Again, others’ experiences may be different and I’m sure there are better and worse plastic model designs out there. But in my experience at least, after he got one lesson on building at the FLGS I can hand pretty much any recent plastic kit to my (now 9 year old) and he can assemble a very nicely done model whereas resin (nonetheless metal) wouldn’t work out.
Sorry to hear about your local gaming scene. Have heard similar stories but again, lucky to be in a thriving and growing scene personally. The last time I talked about the AoS 1.0 debacle with someone who lived through it (an all metal I believe Seraphon player) was at the local tournament where to my understanding the number of tables dedicated to AoS (while still less than 40K) had doubled over the last few years and there was still a waiting list to get in.
Maybe today’s announcement will reduce the churn in 40K as at first blush they do seem to be learning some lessons from what has made AoS so much more successful in my area at least.
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To get to the specifics of the question, apologies for jumping in with a tangent first, the price increases have spurred me to acquire some Blue Horrors for our gaming group sooner than I otherwise might. Original plan had been to see how practical it was to play two 20x blocks of Pink Horrors (which require in theory 40x Blue Horrors each) AND to see if the new GH changed the points cost any. With the price increase looming taking a better safe than sorry approach and pulled forward the purchase (hopefully if we decide we don’t in fact need them we’ll benefit from a little price arbitrage on secondary market).
The price increases also are suggestive of high price points for the Sons (whenever they release) and as such the building of a sons army for our gaming group may be spread out longer than originally expected. Those most obvious changes I can think of re:AoS side.
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1 hour ago, NauticalSoup said:
Yeah but you could've been using the contrast method (ink washing) in the 90s if you had known you could. Contrast doesn't actually bring anything new to the table except a huge marketing push.
“The future is already here - it’s just not evenly distributed yet.” - William Gibson
Not disputing at all the veracity of what you’re saying. But a tool I didn’t know about and had no simple and straight forward way to find out about was of no use to me. In time I did the due diligence I could including asking the manager of the FLGS I was buying from what the best thing to do was given my concerns about my painting skills. I think he gave the best advice he could given what he knew. It didn’t work. From talking to plenty of others even recently this wasn’t some aberration.
Marketing of course ultimately about getting you to buy something. But any good marketer will recognize that one of the best ways to do that is to educate your customer base. GW as the biggest kid on the block was the one with the marketing budget to invest in that education, even if, as I’m sure you are correctly noting, they didn’t invent the product and arguably oversold its virtues. But as a reward for that marketing education they’ve reaped a reward in yes, selling a lot of contrast paint but I’d also suggest in enabling a bunch of new players, such as myself to finally gain traction in a hobby we then become very passionate about.
Does that mean they get a pass on higher prices? Not my call because obviously every person’s hobby budget and demand elasticity to price is going to be different. Not thrilled with it myself.
I think we both agree that we don’t want to see the recent price increase push anyone out of the game or prevent new players from joining by raising the $$$ barrier to entry. I think we both worry that it could. I think where we disagree is how much credit GW should get for expanding the player base to begin with. I can only speak from my own personal experience on that and my conversations with others I’ve interacted with in the game who’ve played longer than I have and the half dozen and growing I’ve directly brought into the game. From that perspective things like easier to assemble models, the combination of the painting system, app and yes contrast paints, as well as the simplification of the rule set were all absolutely critical. For others of course some of those steps may have been completely unnecessary.
In the end I recognize that price may force some people out of the game and keep others from joining. Given how much I’ve come to enjoy the game though my sincere hope is that on a net basis it continues to grow.
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10 minutes ago, Roark said:
it's the fact that he is so reliable. His ability just happens.
So in comparison to say a Slaughterpriest (who I’m not just plunking down in the Skull Alter buff zone) where I’ve only got a 50% chance of getting the benefit I am trying for? Or an Aspiring Deathbringer where I’m having to spend a CP for their buff. Having failed a prayer when I really needed and similarly found the CP well dry at a critical point I can see that appeal.
But relative to a Bloodsecrator or my Wrathmongers (who admittedly aren’t competing for a Hero slot) the reliability advantage would be even.
Thanks for the food for thought. At a minimum reopens consideration of Dark Feast. I have been strongly favoring Gore Pilgims for the Slaughterpriests and Bloodsecrator...
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12 hours ago, Malakithe said:
Generals handbook is coming. What points changes do we want or predict?
Know it won’t happen but as someone who hasn’t gotten the chance, due to pandemic, to see the current points played to any serious extent would be hoping for no changes. Agree with @obmik1 that the problem with TZ isn’t the points, it’s issues with battalions or sub factions.
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@NauticalSoup hear you on 40K. My son got super excited about the Tau when I was bringing him in for painting lessons at my FLGS but we actually only play Kill Team and Apocalypse. Despite the grander scale found it so much easier to play APOC than straight 40K.
And with hours and hours using them I’m familiar with strengths and weaknesses of contrast. And I still use both styles of paint on most models. But I know from my past experience with the dwarves (before they were Duardin lol) that I never would’ve gotten through the 2K plus full summoning bench for my FEC at all, nonetheless under the deadline for the tournament (as it was I insisted at midnight the night before..) without contrast paints. For less skilled painters such as myself every little bit of simplification helps.
On the luck vs planned GW of course didn’t plan the large secondary market which I also think has lowered barrier to entry. While I’m proud to have an army where I can say “I did that” I’m also happy that when I want to I at least have the option of skipping the whole build & paint steps and go straight to play. Sure there was some secondary markets and commission options my first time round but clearly a lot easier these days if that’s how you want to do it. There of course GW just benefiting from technology advances.
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Looking for insight here on Bloodstoker. At least in my Khorne Mortals lists the primary scarcity is Hero slots. We have so many great buffing units and some interesting other options from Chaos Lord Karkadrak (or Manticore even) to Daemon Prince that I can never find the space to fit my Bloodstoker. As far as movement goes I guess I’ve just found I get enough from some Skullcrushers. But it’s clear from these threads that the Stoker is very popular. Based on your gaming experiences is it the rerolling Wounds I’m underestimating? the extra charge? the combination?
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24 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:
the more expensive it gets the higher the barrier to entry and, correspondingly, the smaller your community will become
I agree that it is important not to price out the community. That said I think it is important to recognize that price is only one of the barriers to entry and over last few years GW has done a tremendous amount to lower the barriers to entry. To use their own rubric for simplicity:
Build - the new plastic models get easier and easier to assemble with beginners having access to push fit meaning they might not even have to deal with glue.
Paint - I tried and failed to play Warhammer Fantasy years ago buying the Battle for Skull Pass set. Managed to get through the goblins but was completely stymied by trying to paint the dwarves. The painting system and app made it a lot easier for someone like myself to paint an army and be proud of the result. Contrast paints take that to a whole new degree of simplicity and were key to my finishing painting a 2K Robinhood Themed FEC army to play in my local tournament that actually garnered a few compliments.
Play - even as an experienced historical war gamer the old rule set was far more cumbersome. Sure, I worry about increasing complexity in 2.0 and power creep but I was able to get my 8 year old son and his friend up and playing in 15 minutes last year. In twice that time I MIGHT have been able to explain to them how the armies moved in the old rule set...
Because of this lowering of the barriers to entry I’ve brought six new players (not counting my kids) into regular play and have even more waiting for pandemic to end in order play their first game.
And yes, they did get price bumps but Underworlds and WarCry still represent far lower priced entry points than were available to me when I first tried, and failed, to get into Warhammer.
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I’ll start off by agreeing with @Frowny that in my own personal experience Ogors are by far the most fun army to play, having played both BCR and Gutbusters centric lists. Like the big centerpiece but don’t want to be too OP throw in a FLoSH as part of an otherwise Gutbuster-based list and you should be fine. But you’ve noted you already have Mawtribes represented in your friendly local gaming group so let’s move on.
I can’t speak much to the squig side of Gloomspite Gitz beyond noting that the manager of the FLGS runs them and couldn’t speak more highly of them. Similarly Trogs look great but haven’t made it onto our tables. In our gaming group though we did run for quite awhile the other parts of the faction and the Spiderfang Grots proved a particularly fun sub-faction to play and play against. I know another player in an associated gaming group we meet up with once a year for a friendly tournament is going all in on Squigs and has been loving it. So of the two options you’re leaning towards that’s the one that gets my vote.
If you’re interested in still considering other options here’s some quick thoughts on the other factions in my gaming group that I can speak directly towards:
Nurgle is tricky. On the one hand I think it is one of the best factions to learn to play with and with a very dedicated Nurgle player in our group I’ve had a lot of fun & memorable games against them (including with FEC, love those undead beasts as well). But other opponents get frustrated playing against all the wound negation options and Artefacts like Witherstave.
I’ve come to prefer Khorne Mortals over Khorne Daemons but if you really have to have those big center piece models and are willing to go ForgeWorld could I suggest adding Mazarall the Butcher to an otherwise Mortals-centric list? He’s an amazing centerpiece and a lot of fun to play. Bonus, he doesn’t even count against your HERO slots! After Ogors, Khorne Mortals have arguably been the most fun to play and play against in our gaming group.
Sylvaneth will likely be leaving our group soon as that player moves on to another army. Dryad spam wasn’t terribly fun for either side but we did have a good run with Spite Revenants and Kurnoth Hunters. The Wyldwoods the big issue with these in our perspective as both sides often were frustrated by the time it took to get them placed. Curious what your group’s experience with them has been?
Kharadron Overlords play very different from anything else we have in our group due to their combination of movement & shooting. New tome seems to fix a lot of issues. Our experience has been that KO is better as a change of pace army than a first choice army.
If you want to go a bit more esoteric than there’s Legion of Azgorh. We’ve seen both sides and my personal bias is towards the Execution Herd and a couple Magma Cannons but another player in our group favors the Chaos Dwarves and a full Hashut Artillery Train of MCs. In either case a fun ally (Execution Herd plus Skarbrand has been a hit, Be’lakor favored on the other side) can be the secret to making the list more fun to play and play against.
Can’t speak to OBR but will say in our gaming group while FEC started out very dominant the other players found good ways to adapt to it. And for a low unit options army even a switch from Gristelgore to Blisterkin can really change things up.
Anyway, if nothing else walking through this made me feel fortunate that I’ve gotten to play with & against so many different factions in my local gaming group. Hope you’re able to find something fun to add to yours!
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More experience seeing the Execution Herd side of LoA where Skarbrand or Mazarall the Butcher make for excellent Distraction Carnifex allowing Shar’tor and Tau’ruk to do their thing. @NJohansson idea of Khorne Daemon Prince or CSL on Manticore could be similar for a lot less points. But with a more Fireglaives centric lists not sure. All three would give you some of that melee you’re missing while keeping people focused away from your Magma Cannons.
Agree with @Televiper11 that Be’lakor can be useful (true in most Chaos lists that are looking for a little oomph).
But with that list what you may actually want/need is less a Hero to buff your units than an Endless Spell. Know @Televiper11 has had luck with Cogs. Soul scream Bridge another way to get those Fireglaives in shooting range. Maybe bringing an allied wizard like the Contorted Epitome and using one of its casts for an Endless Spell is best way to maximize those units?
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3 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:
but alternatively I think instead we could counter endless spells by eating them instead of joining the fun. Could be an artifact, trait, or just one of the big giants abilities, simple, powerful, and thematic
With the Lord of Change getting Spell Eater in the recent Tzeentch Tome we know this ability is possible but GW may be reluctant to repeat so quickly. (Especially as they are almost certain to get some version of Mawtribes’ multiple model count for objectives...). But maybe enabling them to “extinguish” Endless Spells by clapping them between their hands (maybe on a 4+). Or maybe “blowing them out” like a candle with a huge (stinky) breath. That could be enough to differentiate them from LoC?
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To get some perspective I went back to the original Beastclaw Raiders Tome and it had 20 pages of what I would call “game specific materials” (allegiance abilities, Artefact lists, battalions, war scrolls, etc.). Given the path away from small tomes such as these GW has taken I have to think that 20 pages a bare minimum for Sons...
For a more recent example of a still small number of models faction I looked at Flesh Eater Courts. Their tome had 26 pages. Would guess target for Sons is actually closer to this.
Okay, for a moment let’s work under the assumption that Aleguzzler still a single war scrolls and each of the giants they’ve shown gets a single page war scroll. So that’s 4 pages. Let’s go with 2 pages of allegiance abilities (pretty standard unless there’s a 3rd page with summoning...), 4 pages of sub-factions, 1 page command trait, 1 page artefacts, and 2 pages of battalions. That’s 14 pages suggesting there is at least 6 pages of “stuff” we don’t know about yet.
Any wizard or priest option adds a page of spell lore/prayers. Endless Spells and/or Terrain piece another page or two. Splitting the Aleguzzler scroll maybe another couple of pages. That could get us to BCR’s 20 pages, which still leaves plenty more upside to FEC’s page count.
Maybe I just really want there to be more and I’m grasping at straws but I have to think there is more plastic (models, terrain, or endless spells) to come to fill out the pages...
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How to make a successful narrative game?
in Narrative and Open Play
Posted
For our gaming group this is it. But even one step further. While the GM will always take into account player interests and desires when we are playing narrative it is understood that the GM has final say on the actual lists that are played. They “earn” this right by (a) ensuring that lists are reasonably balanced and (b) that the lists are narratively consistent. Of course the GM would immediately lose this trust if they gave themselves an advantage but in general as long as the GM is committed you’re more likely to see them go the opposite direction.
Certainly list building isn’t an aspect of the game that should be completely ignored. But nearer tournaments we play plenty of matched play lists where this is emphasized. And for us that’s what it really has to come down to. If you’re playing narrative you’re playing it for the sake of the narrative, NOT to prove you can min-max the best list. But fully willing to say we’re lucky there.
Our group’s most recent narrative (Khorne Mortals vs Khorne Daemons competing to see who could secure the most skulls for the skull/throne and blood for the blood god) was disrupted by Covid and our game streams have been more one off and/or escalation set ups. The positive is, again, these style games let our players flex their list building and competitive muscles. But hope is whenever in-person gaming becomes more practical players will be excited to play narrative again.