Beer & Pretzels Gamer

Again, still relatively new to Fyreslayers but do think that making “Battleline If” tied to Lodge not General would help if this is really an issue. To my understanding the big external complaint around Hearthguard Berzerkers is running two blocks of 20x in Hermdar w/a Lords of the Lodge Battalion. If Hermdar was NOT the Lodge that allowed HBs to be battleline my guess is that would drop to a single unit of 20x for the battalion. That said your argument seems to be more fluff oriented than player experience oriented? I’m primarily (at least in non-COVID-19 times) a narrative player so I am empathetic to the arguments I’ve seen here and in other threads (such as AoS 3.0) for lore based limitations. That said I’m overall lukewarm to the idea as I don’t struggle all that much to accommodate any non-HERO based ones. Simply put I make no personal assumption that a particular point level equates to the “platonic ideal” of a faction’s army size. In fact much of the lore I do read suggests that an Alfrostun for Mawtribes would be much larger than 2K points would allow. In most cases the Super Battalions best reflect what the true army size would be. So as regards any 2k list weighted more strongly to HBs (or if it so happened AHs) my mind has no problem adjusting to this is not some fresh Fyrd that just marched out of the Magmahold in full force but one that has been whittled down by combat. Makes perfect sense that the stronger units such as HB would have more survivors than the Vulkites. Alternatively my mind frequently has come to see any individual 2K match up as largely reflecting a slice of the larger battle (this was a common set up for the historical war games I started playing before AoS, where for model reasons maybe only one flank of a battle was reflected, or only a few hours of the engagement that didn’t include certain units that arrived later or were held in reserve). So again, this is an easy mental adjustment for when I see big blobs of HBs (as in ahh, this is the core the army so the best troops are represented). But net-net until Fyreslayers gets more multiple model units I see limited reason to restrict the use of ones we have.

I would love a Fyreslayer Cavalry unit. I’d be worried though if Vulkites became the only battleline option. I enjoy taking a nice block of them but wouldn’t want to start every list with three. Still only three games played as and two against in my Fyreslayers journey but know from FEC the value of “Batttleline IF...” in keeping an army fun and fresh. I wouldn’t mind at all though if they shifted the conditions away from who your general is to make them Lodge specific.

I’d love if it there was a nice expansion a la Slaanesh. But having played a lot of Mawtribes and seen a lot of Warclans think there are ways both keep the unique flavors of the sub-factions whether BCR and Gutbusters implicitly in Mawtribes or Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz a lot more explicitly in Warclans. If they do combine I’d prefer the latter with pretty explicit options for pure Fyreslayer and KO lists but then a Big Waaagh!!! Equivalent that allows a unique United Duardin faction including both and Dispossessed. As far as bad luck I know from speaking to both my locals (an actual GW and a broader gaming store) that they typically only stock 1 SC kit and 1 box of Hearthguard, replacing only with sale. This pretty common for older factions (e.g. until BR only stalking SC IDK and eels, or SC BCR and Gluttons or Ironguts) to my understanding. Retailers want to minimize slow turn inventory and outside of new Tome releases most older factions have low turn.

I’m in the camp that thinks Fyreslayers will get rolled into a United Duardin Tome a la Orruk Warclans or Ogor Mawtribes. My hope is with that will come some new models. At a minimum just imagine dropping off 20x Hearthguard Berzerkers anywhere on the battlefield from a KO ship....

Certainly the most fun I’ve had losing! (By double digits none the less.) It is fascinating to see your list played by someone else. The list dictated certain approaches but my opponent still made different choices than I would’ve in certain areas as they are a bigger gambler. Here it paid off. (Would be curious how it would’ve played had I made those charges...) But while I’m not a big tournament player (normal conditions 2-3 small locals a year) this will now be a regular part of my tournament prep. Learned a lot playing the list the first three matches but learned a lot trying to “crack it”, and expect to learn even more next two matches as I get ahold of new tools to try and accomplish that task.

Too little, too late. The tables have flipped in Zoom League so this time it was me trying to crack the Fyreslayers list with my opponent’s Khorne list. Having seen his “hammer” break on my Hearthguard Anvil I had a plan. Unfortunately Fyreslayers were just too good in the two rounds it took me to execute my plan and were helped by some failed charges, I expected him to imitate my success in moving the Hearthguard Berzerkers with Battlesmith plus Bodyguards into the middle. I even got lucky that the primary objective landed in the West so he couldn’t just camp on it if I made him go first like I had when it had fallen in Center first two rounds. That forced him to bring the 20x Vulkites in the tunnel with the Runesmiter on foot out onto that objective R1.1. He also ran his 10x Vulkites out onto the East objective. Okay, stunk starting off down 7 VP but felt I was in a good position to claw back 5 as I started the first part of my plan. FURY and two units of 5x Flesh Hounds went to the West. FURY was even able to snipe the Runesmiter in the Shooting Phase with his whip and all three of them made their charges so I was hopeful that I would be able to clear enough to force a painful battle shock he couldn’t CP without a HERO in range. Meanwhile RAGE and 5x Flesh Hounds headed East to clear of the Vulkites. Unfortunately despite rerolls, they failed their charges. When FURY and the Flesh Hounds in the West couldn’t get the job done I was left with... 0 VP. Any hope to make it up with a double turn was quickly evaporated when I rolled (yet another...) 2 for initiative. In leaving a unit of Flesh Hounds and WRATH back my hope had been to draw forward the Hearthguard Berzerkers far enough to open a gap between them and the Battlesmith. My original hope had been to wipe the Vulkites in the East and the take advantage of Baleful Lords Run & Charge to fly RAGE into that gap and deal out enough damage and MWs to clear him and the Auric Hearthguard bodyguards. This would deprive the HBs of one of their +1 Saves, potentially their 4+ HERO shrug, and ideally their battalion ability to pile in and attack a second time. All in perfect time to slam Skarbrand into them. In R2.1 this plan partially worked. The gap did open up. But my opponent popped the Runesmiter on Magmadroth Grand Ritual and moved him into position for the HBs to get a +1 to Save (and thus the HERO 4+ shrug) even if I killed the Battlesmith. Meanwhile the 20x Vulkites were also in the Runesmiter Grand Ritual buff bubble so they held out in the West another turn. Thus I was down 12-0 by the time I got my second turn. RAGE would fly over and wipe out the Battlesmith but with 4+/4++ the Hearthguard handled the Skarbrand hit better than hoped. By that point the VP deficit was too much. From the Fyreslayers perspective the 20x Vulkites Berzerkers were MVPs. The +1 Save from the Bladed Slingshield made a difference, especially when paired with the +1 from the Runesmiter’s Grand Ritual, in tying up a big chunk of my forces. To finally clear them R3 I’d need to summon 10x more Flesh Hounds. Now was that Khorne’s hammer? No. But by holding out in the West so long they prevented the Tyrants from converging in the middle against the rest all while wracking up VP. The Warpick’s Rend, especially when doubled to -2 in R2 when the tune was in effect, also made sure they wore down the units tied up with them. Add in Berzerker Fury, allowing pile in on death and points wise they came out at least even. I’ve definitely come to appreciate the value of this block in the list. Again, this is far from a fully optimized list but I like that it has more tools than I expected. It can put 20x semi-resilient Vulkites bodies on an objective, especially with Vostarg movement or Runesmiter’s tunnel, with the knowledge that the opponent probably has to turn their hardest hitters in the direction of the Hearthguard Berzerkers. Meanwhile, in later rounds the Magmadroths get chances to shine.

That would be great but I didn’t want to get “greedy”😁 Consistent with what @Skreech Verminking pointed out it would be nice if more of the faction specific start collecting sets were closer to actual list requirements. Not sure how true the new 40K Combat Patrol boxes are to the concept of having a ready to play force out of box but the concept gets me hopeful that it is a direction AoS can go towards.

To take a completely different angle, as someone who is an active AoS evangelist (have brought close to a dozen people into game at this point) what I want is for the factions they choose to be in the start collecting kits to be good for the life span of 3.0. For 2.0 the easiest and cheapest (except for the BCR SC exception) armies to build were Stormcast Eternals and Nighthaunt, which dominated the start collecting battle boxes coming out of Soul Wars and the cheap easy build kits (as well as being the focus of the paint sets for that matter). But for a large chunk of 3.0 they were armies with severe battletome issues in comparison to most other armies. This a real barrier to converting someone I taught to play into an actual army owner. Not saying they have to be top tier for all of 3.0. Just want a commitment that those cheap entry points will give new players a fun & viable start throughout.

With a win against Mawtribes my Fyreslayers managed to go 3-0. Yet, once again, how I won gives me hope that I will manage to pull off “Ultimate Bragging Rights” at least once as we flip the table and start playing our opponents’ list. To make for a more interesting tactical choice with the center objective in Focal Points we’d made sure the objective could be contested on two levels. As can be seen in the picture above those on ground level would be in the 6” zone of control but so would those on top of the hill. In the second round it looked like exactly this scenario was going to come into play as the Ironguts moved into the lower zone of control. With control of both objectives in the West and the Central objective Mawtribes would pull into the lead on VP and force me to make a difficult decision on how to regain control. Getting up the hill and over the skull to get into combat was going to take a high Charge Roll anyway so the base case was they’d stay there. But my opponent rolled an 11 and charged them in. Now based on previous games this still wasn’t a horrible idea. The Ironguts had been making hay in previous matches buzz sawing though other units or severely degrading if not one-shotting Monsters. In contrast, outside of giving the Run & Charge Command Trait buff to my Hearthguard Berzerkers my Runefather on Magmadroth had done almost nothing in prior games. He’d lost out to a Maniak Weirdnob last game... So the odds still seemed in Mawtribes favor, but due to other units in combat that turn my opponent prioritized a different unit with their first activation. With the enhanced Rune of Fury giving me an extra attack and re-rolling 1s to Hit the Vosaxe Artefact buffed Latchkey Grandaxe finally went off. With the Magmadroth kicking in some Damage as well was able to kill three out of the four Ironguts and leave the last with only 1 wound left. The swing in VP and my opponent’s combat effectiveness from this one combat would prove decisive. If you’ve read the other battle reports for Fyreslayers there are moments like these where different choices or better or worse rolls of the dice helped swing things in my favor. So while I am happy to finish the first round undefeated I don’t think things are hopeless once I start piloting the other lists against my Fyreslayers. Interestingly enough I am very hopeful about winning with the Bonesplitterz list that went 0-3. Against Khorne in the final game of the first cycle they had an interesting opportunity to exploit. Bonesplitterz had used their pre-game movement to advance their Savage Big Stabbas up the board. This baited Khorne into going first to try and knock out these threats before they got into their Bloodthirsters. Except, even after re-rolls Khorne would fail all but one charge, only managing to get one unit of Flesh Hounds into combat. On Bonesplitterz turn they faced a choice of targets. Do they commit both units into WRATH and FURY or do they split their attacks and try and take out Skarbrand using the Big Stabbas ability to run & charge? They went for the latter. The Big Stabbas did one shot Skarbrand on some good rolls but Tyrants of Blood sequential activation meant WRATH and FURY both survived this combat. Again, hard to fault taking out Skarbrand before he gets going but once the game was over we kept coming back to this exchange as being one that still left Khorne with the advantage after leaving themselves exposed by failed charges. I fully acknowledge Bonesplitterz is going to be the toughest list to pilot. But in the Scorched Earth Battleplan I’ll be using them I do think they have some opportunities to exploit Fyreslayers limited movement once Vostarg’s R1 free 6” run is in the past and the Runesmiter out of the tunnel. Similarly, I like Khorne’s mobility to get to objectives and hopefully single out some of the support pieces Fyreslayers are so dependent on. Doubt I can go 6-0 across this tournament but I still think I’ve got wins ahead of me.

This gets me so well! Again, I love AoS for how it avoids so many of the issues that drove me away from historical wargaming. And for the most part I’ve truly come to peace with the compromises that the simple rule set forces. But this is a great example of where I feel like the simplicity is “game-breaking” in the sense that it takes me out of the mentality of “realistic strategy & tactics” albeit in a fantasy setting. As I put it in another thread it takes us from being Generals to being Gods. And so as to not simply complain but coming completely off the top of my head I will propose the following solution for AoS: Unless no other target is in range, no more than 5 models worth of missile attacks can be targeted at a non-MONSTER HERO. This still allows for some sniping by individual models or small units that should be able to “concentrate fire but prevents the ridiculousness of @OkayestDM’s amazing GIF (laughed so hard my kids came and checked to see if I was alright). Again, just off the top of my head but seems like a simple fix.

In my first two games the Auric Runefather on Magmadroth had largely been there to give the Hearthguard Berzerker the run & charge Command Trait buff from Vostarg but otherwise hadn’t done much (ignominiously losing head-to-head against a defensively buffed Maniak Weirdnob last match). His attack output hadn’t been even decent, not helped by bad rolls for his Axe, which brought decent damage output in theory with the Vostarg Artefact. Finally got his moment to shine against Mawtribes. First, we were playing Focal Points so he gave bonus VP when I got him up on the central objective. But when a unit of Ironguts contested that objective he actually almost managed to wipe them out before they got a chance to activate, killing 3x and leaving the survivor with only 1 wound left. The difference maker? Had the enhanced Rune of Fury going so got the re-rolls and the extra attack. The Mount’s attacks softened them up but the Latchkey Grand(Vos)axe finally went off forcing two saves at -2 Rend for 3 Damage each and one at 4 Damage for good measure. As this was the first Fyreslayers unit I ever owned (bought as an ally for a big 8K+ total points blowout battle to end our gaming group’s first big narrative cycle) it was nice to finally see its output feel as impressive as the model looks.

Agree that this is amazing work! Downside is before I saw this thread I was very happy with my Ironjawz. Now... not so much. Great stuff!

In general I’ve found that the higher the number of objectives, changes in objectives value, or twists like removing objectives helps in this area. But agree there is plenty of room for things like prayers/spells that can force an opponent to move. More broadly I’d be fine if more factions incorporated elements that forced trade-offs, whether that was “honor” forcing an Order unit to advance on a nearby enemy or the same concept for something like bloodlust for Chaos (Khorne) or Destruction (Mawtribes) or even Death (FEC). Bravery could be a simple mechanic for something like this. In Movement Phase a unit has to pass a Bravery test to stand still (sure, maybe give a bonus if on an objective or in cover). And, as I’ve tried to acknowledge in both my initial post below the poll and in a later new culpa my intent was not to create a false dichotomy between objective play and lethality. As I’ve noted the par anthemic all descriptors were simply meant to be illustrative rather than definitive. That said the dichotomy is one I’ve seen raised, and I do see as particularly prevalent early in the learning curve where players struggle to balance the desire to table their opponent/avoid being tabled and playing for the misssion objectives, hence my using it in my examples. Think you did an excellent job in describing why it might not and need not always be the case that the two are in conflict.

Ahh... can cover the %s much better than the rationales! Thank goodness for the comments section.

A sentiment in general I can get behind but would be curious if you’d elaborate on the knowing the rules aspect in this context.

Aren’t you glad I didn’t listen to you and got him anyway 😎

Okay, so apparently had to learn the hard way about breaking my buff bubbles and just barely got away with it vs Bonesplitterz. That won’t work against Mawtribes up next in Zoom League so hopefully I don’t make that mistake again. As noted above did a little better with Berzerk Fury and just think Mawtribes a more target rich environment. Have to be cognizant though that it is only Combat Phase so risk of model loss from Charge Damage must be accounted for. Mawtribes also feels like a match where I will have to spend the Forge. Given their movement I feel like this could be an R1 or even R2 event. Unlike the Mawpot though no way to recharge so there’s a risk but if I’m at risk of a double turn from the go I’m debating whether I just need to go all in on defense as soon as I get a chance...

... as I understand it is keep your key units in their buff bubbles. I broke that rule and turned the game into a slow attrition battle that I barely came out on top of. My opponent had more experience playing against Fyreslayers than I had playing with them. With a double battalion they were going to have fewer drops than I would and thus would choose priority. When they placed their big block of Arrowboyz on the front edge of their deployment zone my guess was they’d use their pre-R1 movement to get into range to try and double-tap either my Hearthguard Berzerkers or snipe out a key Hero our two. I tried to deploy accordingly, trying to at least make them use the Hero Phase action to move the Arrowboyz into range but there was only so much depth to deploy into and I didn’t want to be completely limited my first turn if they surprised me and went first. Well they did move their Arrowboyz forward (and the other half rounding up the army Bonesplitterz let them)... but then they gave me priority. Their experience against Fyreslayers was against the classic Hermdar, double HB, Lords of the Lodge list so when this happened I had to ask myself whether they recognized that I had the movement with Vostarg to get in a first turn charge and they were intentionally trying to bait me into pulling out of my buff bubbles, or whether their lack of familiarity meant they’d actually given me an opening to disrupt their plans? Especially with the back line now also open to bring the Runesmiter and 20x Vulkites underground with him in from behind I ultimately succumbed to temptation and ran & charged my Hearthguard Berzerkers and ambushed and charged my Vulkites into the big group of Savage Orruks in the middle. My hope was even without the best buffs going that I could clear enough of the opposition out and, if I didn’t get double turned, be in a good position to move things up in R2 to regain the buff bubbles. Failing my Runefather on Magmadroth’s charge in this context was particularly painful, especially when my CP reroll was worse than my first roll and cost me the alternate option of charging into his Maniak Weirdnob. Suffice to say this was a mistake. I didn’t do enough damage on the big block of Arrowboyz and w/2 battalions he had the CP to prevent battleshock. As a result he still had enough left to contest one of the two objectives I was in contention for in his territory. Simply put I fell far short of the reward I’d taken the risk of breaking my buff bubbles to get. While they held up okay in my opponent’s turn the now buffed Maniak Weirdnob charged into my spell damaged Runefather, significantly degrading him, while largely shrugging the limited Damage output of my Magmadroths. Meanwhile, Pebbles the Rogue Idol flew across the table to challenge my 10x Vulkites for my far Western objective. Fortunately just enough would survive to prevent my opponent from taking the objective and forcing them to spend another turn clearing them out. Of course they immediately got that turn, winning priority for the double-turn. My Runefather would fall but the Runesmiter on Magmadroth would finally finish them off. Pebbles would take and then burn my (Western Objective). Meanwhile I was “winning” the slow attrition in the middle, but at a higher price than I would have liked. In my second turn I’d have to sacrifice my Auric Hearthguard and a Hero setting up a speed bump in R3 to Pebbles if I lost the priority roll again (I would). While I was finally able to get some of my buff bubbles back as the Runesmiter from the Magmic Tunnel that had ambushed with the Vulkites was finally able to get in position. It would push back and forth from there with Bonesplitterz consistently winning the priority and Pebbles rampaging in my back line but my winning the attrition battle in my opponent’s territory. Pebbles had to burn to be able to move on as he lacked a support (until Wardok finally caught up in R4) while my eventual numbers advantage let me wrack up some extra points before I needed to burn. Those extra VP would prove critical as it built up just enough of a lead as by the end of R4.1 my opponent was left with Wardok & Pebbles relatively uncontested in my territory but my now unencumbered surviving Hearthguard Berzerkers ready to claim and burn my opponent’s Western objective in my turn while my Magmadroth was climbing the Bell Tower to try and kill off Wurgog. If successful they could burn it but as long as the Magmadroth survived I’d score the objective again. Mathematically even the latter would’ve been enough to clinch the game even if Pebbles got max points for the final objective in my territory in R5. So at midnight there was a concession, giving me a victory I was lucky to claim given how poorly I played. I gambled poorly early and got bailed out by Fyreslayer resilience and some fortunate Save rolls and a couple cold rolls from my opponent. I tried to play Fyreslayers as more free wheeling then they were meant to be played. Won’t get away with that next match against Mawtribes. <Was focused on making up for my mistakes so not as many pictures from this game>

So voting has slowed down at the 72 Hour mark but I think that at least two things are clear. First, while a strong agnostic contingent remains there is far more consensus total loss rate than there was for the rate of attrition at which they were lost. This is interesting because there is definitely a push back by some advocates of game play features such as alpha strikes or double-turns that the opposition just doesn’t like losing their models at all. Clearly even I’d bought into this somewhat in my first poll with how I phrased one of the choices. The pushback is that it isn’t the loss I and of itself but rather the timing (too soon) or the lack of interaction regarding the loss. With zero votes for total loss rates of 40% or less I think the evidence is on the latter’s side. So people aren’t as protective of their painted pieces as maybe I thought. Second, observationally the consensus total loss rate seems to be consistent with the current experience on tabletop. In other words I do believe that the vast majority of games end with a loss rate within the range where the majority of votes fell. I’ve played in a few “pillow fights” with very low losses and had a few come close to total annihilation but the vast majority of the games I’ve played and watched are around that median 60%, plus or minus 10%.

Well, you drew me out of my buff bubbles and forced a grinding game that came down to the second turn of R4 where you had by far the strongest unit on the table (good old Pebbles w/only a few wounds) but I just had my units in better positions to score late game VP. And gosh darn it you somehow came out ahead on this match up!

So I did get Berzerk Fury off into Pebbles the Rogue Idol... Unfortunately it was with the unit of 10x Vulkite Berzerkers w/Paired Axes and they just didn’t have enough oomph to get through the defenses, doing a total of 4 Damage before they evaporated. Triggered the 20x block when they went into a big mess of Arrowboyz, Savage Big Stabbas and a Savage Big Boss after a charge, thinking that it would be the most attacks they’d face AND they were w/out their shield Saves that turn. But only got modest benefit from it as my opponent rolled cold.

Just switched from SCE to Fyreslayers and admittedly still very new to both but if they are Hermdar (the fight first CA comes from there) outside of a Runesmiter on Foots underground ambush they are not very mobile (I’m running Vorstag to address that). So a combination of movement shenanigans like the LA and some Hero sniping (kill the Battlesmith) to reduce their buffs can set you up to be ahead on VP and ideally choose when to fight the Hearthguard Berzerkers on more favorable terms. Not easy but best at my experience level with these two armies I can offer.

Thanks for the advice. My other big concern is playing Scorched Earth has me concerned about protecting enough of my own objectives while still contesting my opponent’s (all while retaining those buff bubbles...). Saw Mawtribes struggle with that last match and they have more mobility than I do. Gonna have to maximize “width” (having my bigger units potentially contesting two objectives) and any other shenanigans (e.g. Magic Tunneling) I think.

Casualties the least reason why I’d be worried about removing the second roll. As @Marcvs has already noted a single roll dramatically flattens the design space by severely limiting ability to differentiate between WS in the same category or even allowing variation w/in a WS, especially between different attacks. To use a real game example from Zoom League on your nobody has 2+/2+ I beg to differ having used and regularly faced a Frostlord on Stonehorn in Boulderhead with Brand of the Svard Artefact which takes their Crushing Hooves to 2+/2+. Add Frosthoof Bull Mount Trait and you’ve got a Profile of 2”/d6/2+/2+/-2/d3(+1 Damage if Charged). Alternatively take Black Clatterhorn Mount Trait and the Horns are that 2+/3+. In our league we regularly see two Frostlords. Only one can take the Brand and you can’t repeat Mount Traits so the player has to choose which build they want. This creates a very different play experience for each Frostlord and highlights how in AoS taking the same unit doesn’t always mean you’re facing the same challenge when you fight those two units. So while along the very narrow framework of just one narrow aspect of the game, the weapons base profile, you might be able to reasonably replicate the probability range. Once you start taking account of all the other dimensions of the game there is no way to retain the design depth if you go to a single roll. Now I’m glad there are options like WarCry that have a narrower design space in certain areas like combat in order to emphasize different design elements (e.g. interaction with terrain) but as my old Economics 101 professor used to say, There Ain’t No Such Thing As a Free Lunch. So you can’t go to a single roll in AoS without radically changing the design space and severely restricting diversity both between and within WS. As I appreciate that diversity I am happy GW found a simple way of expressing it. Roll once. Pick up the Hits and Reroll them. Tell Your Opponent how many dice they need to roll...

Agree that the game design issues are clear and the mathhammer lays it out. Two rolls provides a much wider base probability using the common d6. That design space expands even further when you factor in all the different ways each roll can be modified. Beyond that, since the narrative/immersion aspect is important to me, while fully acknowledging it doesn’t always fit cleanly my own mentality on each roll. Hit = Skill of User. How skilled is the attacker? Are they using a weapon that aligns with those skills? The simplest way to think about the latter is usually units focused on shooting are less skilled with their melee weapons.. Wound = Efficiency of the Weapon. This may be a little technical but to me this is a combination of weapon design and the surface area of the part of the weapon designed to do the damage. Save = Skill of the Defender and/or other Measures Taken. Re:skill think about how boxers or martial artists might have many blows land but they take these blows in ways intended to reduce the probability they are hurt by them. Other Measures Taken covers anything from armor to magic to clouds of spores. Rend = Aspects of the users skill or weapon design that limit the utility of the defender’s skill or the efficacy of other measures taken. Damage = the stopping power of the weapon. Wound or Mortal Wound Negation = Defender’s Inherent or Enhanced Resiliency Mortal Wounds = (e.g. on Unmodified 6s) some unique element of the user or weapon that can’t be easily captured by these mechanics. Personally I enjoy playing in a design space that allows for differentiation at this degree while still keeping it pretty simple. Yes it is two separate rolls for me but it isn’t exactly hard to pick up the right half of the dice and roll again. And giving my opponent a chance to roll keeps it interactive,