Ser_namron

The heals in OBR are mean enough without nagash, and now im glad i've never seen him in an OBR list...yet lol. Even rerolls of 1 are insanely good for OBR, like holy ******. i too have had Gotrek slowed by the nexus ( literally the most ****** piece of terrain in this game that could easily be a couple hundred point model with how much utility it has) and he was made absolutely useless on his stumpy legs. Luckily its ONLY on a 4+.... But ya, daisy chain the units or keep Gotrek outside of 18. Easier said than done though when they get to place it right in the middle of the board.

Got my game in against OBR last night for practice. Happy to report the list did EXCEEDINGLY well. My rolls were god-like, so we're having a rematch to make sure it wasnt a fluke lol. What i learned for going against OBR- * weight of attacks are going to get through Mortek gaurd with a fully buffed unit. * BEWARE of being wholly within 18" of the nexus, that slow affect is so brutal and will tarpit your army. easily avoided by daisy chaining, * Bloodwrack medusa stare is clutch ( 7/10 mortals on first stare lol) * Stalkers are scary, they can charge with fly so im making mental notes to really shore up the backline and leave no gaps for them. * heart piercer sheilds are god like. * Hero phase activate is a MUST have. Avoiding the reroll saves on OBR units is a must. If you dont outright kill the unit, the opponent is gonna bring the majority of them back. If you can get the heroes even better, but DOK isnt known for hero sniping lol. Overall really happy with the performance, but i think the rolls were above average so i need to temper expectations for the next battle. Only thing i was debating changing was the unit of SoS, they ended up being in the back babysitting an objective, i thought maybe a heartrender unit and a triumph might be better. Maybe 2 scourge chariots if i had the models lol.

100% , i was interpreting that as being part of the scroll, so it would duck the FAQ. But since it was added to the scroll it was first and foremost, unspecified which gets hit by the FAQ to "your hero phase"

the Errata added " the same unit cannot be picked to benefit from this command ability more than once per hero phase" isnt that specifying a phase? Though now i know that was an errata ( i was just reading off the AOS app scroll that has that added into it) it would seem like it wasn't specified like all the rest before that. So i do think its probably only our hero phase. Oh well, still as amazing as it has been lol.

Im not sure if that wasnt what they intended or not, all i know is that RAW i seem to be correct. But im with you and ill tread on the side of caution until i can get some clarification, Surely it would've been used in a tournament or two by now.

Well it says the Orgy of slaughter specifies hero phase, where as other older command abilities literally have no specification of phase, they just say what it does. each player gets a hero phase, so the CA works in hero phases. versus something that has no specification would only work in your hero phase with this FAQ. Example of" Command abilities that don’t specify when they are used"- Saurus old blood -"paragon of order" . with the FAQ that becomes only useable "in your hero phase" So the "your hero phase" doesnt apply because the warscroll already specifies that it is used in " the hero phase" I could easily be wrong, and im sure someone knows for sure because DOK havent changed in like 2 years lol.

a 2nd stare would be nice, as would the 2nd spellcast/unbind. I kinda overlooked her stare for damage, so i will keep that in mind! Im not sure if it'd worth dropping a 2nd hags brew though. Having both units of 30 immune to bshock and rerolling wounds seems like the weightier option for most non OBR matchups. Im not exactly sold on the extra command point, the math just kinda worked out to 30-50 spare points with list building so i figured i'd lean into that hero phase activate.

Per Core rules FAQ COMMAND ABILITIES Q: Many command abilities on older warscrolls don’t specify in which phase they are used. When can I use such command abilities? A: Command abilities that don’t specify when they are used are always used in your hero phase Since it says hero phase on the command i always assumed that meant only your hero phase. If im wrong, id LOVE to be corrected, because damn that'd be amazing lol. Edit- Dang, it sure seems like we can do hero activate in any players hero phase according to FAQ. Been playing this army for near 2 years without this >.< would love clarification.

So i didnt like my lack of bodies in this first list, and i sorely missed the Slaughter queen CA. I couldnt find room for the Blood sisters which is the only thing im a bit worried about since i know ill be facing some OBR and im not sure how im going to handle them without -2 from a mindrazor'd Melusai. I think this list is a bit stronger against most everything else. More bodies, Blood orgy, extra command point. Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine- Temple: Hagg NarSlaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (330)- General- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples- Artefact: Iron Circlet- Prayer: Blessing of KhaineBloodwrack Shrine (220)- Lore of Shadows: MindrazorHag Queen (90)- Prayer: Catechism of MurderHag Queen (90)- Prayer: Sacrament of Blood30 x Witch Aelves (300)- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers30 x Witch Aelves (300)- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)- Barbed Whips and Blade BucklersExtra Command Point (50)Total: 1500 / 1500Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 200Wounds: 106

Theirs an artifact that lets the general gain a command point on a roll after using a command ability with them. I believe its all geared toward that. Sure they could've made some different command abilities, but who doesn't want a worse version of the generic ones lol.

Ooh you are correct, i guess i wont be casting anything other than mindrazor really. Heart renders and a triumph it is!

1500 pt tourney coming up, looking for list advice. Pretty basic list. Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine- Temple: Hagg NarBloodwrack Shrine (220)- General- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples- Lore of Shadows: MindrazorHag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (300)- Artefact: Iron Circlet- Prayer: Blessing of KhaineHag Queen (90)- Prayer: Catechism of Murder20 x Blood Sisters (480)30 x Witch Aelves (300)- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)Prismatic Palisade (30)Total: 1500 / 1500Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 200Wounds: 106 Palisade is just the only thing that appealed to me at 30 pts. Can possibly be useful. pretty much just push forward with the devoted disciples aura and the blood cauldron aura, try to take points. Sneks and witch aelves both will have bshock immunity with hags brew. Catchecism/ mind razor on the sneks or witch aleves depending on what needs to die. Blessing of khaine on whoever is going to need it based on whats getting charged/charging. i would have loved to fit a slaughter queen as general for the hero phase attack, but then i cant run sneks as battleline.

1 brokk 3 Baloondrinmasters (1 as your general) 3 units of 6 riggers ( each unit has 1 sky hook the rest have saws and rivet guns) 3 gunhaulers ( 1 for each unit of 6 riggers and 1 baloondrin) 1 extra command point 2000/2000 Fly high outside of 9", shoot the gunz, pop Brokks CA and hope to make some sweet sweet 8" charges with rerolls lol. I dont think itll win you the game, but oh boy all those saws could probably cleave through some bodies

No mines literally anecdotal too, which was the whole point. sure some situations it can be done, but the fact is its a 14 wound model with a -1 to be hit if in conflagration coven. So "just delete it" isnt really a valid option. Im not talking about range of the teleport being 9" away, thats the one rule their teleport still follows. Flamers are 18" range and the most powerful shooting they have, horrors are 12" range. You can teleport a unit of flamers 18" away and get the full shooting capacity out of them. If you park your boat 18" away you lose shooting on alot of units. Thunderers with rifles and special weapons are the exceptions. Carbines 12"/ pistols 9"/ riggers rivet guns 12" / wardens pistols 9" . A bulk of our shooting REQUIRES us within 12" to fully unload. This is important because KO have practically 0 presence in melee and actual 0 presence in magic, you NEED to be shooting. if you get your ships 12" away from the enemy, you've put yourself at a way higher risk than plopping flamers 18" out. But thats just shooting , and not my main point. Ships cant fly after taking a certain amount of wounds, they cant pick up riggers unless those riggers are wholly within 6" , you have to ungarrison before you fly high, or garrison before you fly high, you also have to be wholly within 6" when you do that. If theirs a flier with 3" you cant disengage you can only retreat ( although units in the vessel can still shoot i believe after the faq?) THOSE are the restrictions im talking about. far from the harshest restrictions in this game, but restrictions nonetheless and a TON more restrictive than changehost. I dont know where i "simplified things to fake a point" if anything i'd say your simplifying things to make YOUR point by boiling down KO fly high restrictions to only being about wounds. I agree for the most part, you 100% can stop DoT teleporting by killing a LOC. And you can definitely stop KO from teleporting by dealing damage to them ( 7 wounds is not "huge" damage in my mind, but semantics). They can definitely heal, and they can definitely be screened, you are correct. But what i pointed out above, is that to fully use our shooting capacity, we need to be within 12" of the enemy. that means our teleports are all happening 12" from the enemy if you want to fully shoot your profiles. The restrictions we have for teleporting ( detailed above) mean that if you dont get a double turn, your entire teleporting plan is within 12" of some enemy threat, and most likely, multiple threats. LOC is table wide. he can safely sit in the very back corner, screened 18" and never even be shot at. This isnt going to be the situation everytime, but if im playing DoT against KO why wouldnt i do this? Or against any army with ranged, just keep your LOC pulled back or screened and it can still make full use of its ability to teleport boardwide. theirs definitely pros and cons to going first or 2nd. I wouldnt be gunning for turn 1 as DoT id aim for that double turn nearly everytime. but its situational, and having the power to decide which is the better option for you is huuuuuge, and can even shut down some armies. And honestly, that first doubleturn can be game decisive. Maybe it wont every time, but in my anecdotal evidence ;P, two straight turns of untouched tzeentch shooting is a death sentence, and a good player who knows their opponent is going to use that to disable an army as best as they can, and with the DoT tools they can really make it effective. But double turns suck for anyone on the receiving end no matter what army. So always being able to decide you're the one who gets the shot at a doubleturn is in itself very powerful. Anything beyond this point literally doesn't matter, neither of us benefit from trying to make this personal or about anything besides KO/ DoT. Take any personal feelings out of the situation. I've presented why DoT and changehost are broken imo, or at least some of the leading factors. I've presented why Changehost teleport and KO teleport are 2 very different things, if you want to disagree with the info/rules and present your own, i welcome them because at the end of the day, we're trying to figure out our strategy playing KO against DoT. Your first reply boiled down to " shoot the changelord off the table" which, while a valid plan, is not the end of the discussion nor the sure fire way to deal with DoT. Your "possible counterplay" was shoot the LOC off the table, that sounds like optimal situation to me. The weakpoint your presented was that the battalion costs 180, i presented you why that wasn't really a weak point at all, you then presented an argument that its a 9 drop total, and you wont be able to bring bulky units, thats a valid argument, although i dont think its as restrictive as the cost of the battalion would make it seem. Thats a valid disagreement. "not the norm" in relation to the teleport is 100% correct. its got no range restrictions, no cost to use, no cast/prayer/roll attempt to use it, its an amazing teleport that disregards restrictions 99% of the other armies have, im not saying it needs all of them, but it should have at least one of them to curb its power.

Just because you did something, doesnt mean its the norm lol, thats anecdotal evidence at best. Im telling you a model with a 4+ ac who can get -1 to hit, and can easily be screened over 18" away is not a simple thing to delete and that is undeniable. Can it be done? Sure, in certain situations, liek the one i posted. But just cause it can be done doesnt mean you can just do it lol. also i would love to hear how you fared against Nagash and Archaon in general, havent had a chance to face them with KO yet. I'll disagree, you're putting it in the most simple terms not accounting for distance/capacity/ wounds taken. The ships gotta be 12" away to get full shooting with your army, thats a massive difference alone than a LOC that can be anywhere on the field and still teleport anything. You cant just ignore the rest of the restrictions im presenting and relate the 2 abilities to wounds taken, thats entirely unfair. look, the teleport is the cherry on top, the battalion itself is the problem. It creates an automatic 1 drop army with no restrictions outside of 1 model and 7 others. THATS why its so powerful. The teleport, is amazing too, it shores up the shortcomings of DoT units and creates some terrible interactions, but thats the secondary part of why its crazy. If you dont see the advantage of making any list you build a 1 drop army then idk what else to say. They get to decide the rules of engagement every game. Your HGB battalion requires you to take 2/3 specific heroes and only 1 unit of HGB are affected by the ability. The tax is that you have to bring specified units, THATS the difference. Maybe you dont need that runesmiter, but guess what, you have to bring that 100 pt model, now your battalion effectively costs 240 pts. Its not linear, some battalions are better than other due to cost/ ability/ models required. Changehost has a fantastic ability, at no extra tax because you're picking everything you want to, unless you werent running a LoC, which is an amazing model and a must take in i'd say the majority of DoT armies. So i dont think their paying alot for it, because the price of the battalion is still cheaper when you take everything you want versus taking a cheaper battalion but being forced into unit choices.

1. I mean, we dont, i just laid the differences out. You cant just ignore the range/capacity/ wounds taken aspect of it and say its the same lol. 2. Again, they dont. The end result can be the same as far as movement goes, but the process to invoke that movement is VERY different. 3. i forgot how easy it is to just delete 14 wound models off the table.......cmon man thats barely an argument. If their rocking Conflagaration coven they have an additional -1 to be hit from ranged bubble, the LOC can easily be screened in the back. I'll concede our army has some amazing hero killing potential, but your lying to yourself if you think you're just deleting a 14 wound model lol. Also, funnily enough the day the tome came out me and my buddy had a Ko/DoT match where he teleported in first turn 9" away and wrecked my face with horrors/flamers ( killed 2 haulers and a hero) and he actually did bring his LoC to the front line right behind everything, and i literally put my entire remaining army into shooting it, and i did kill it! But i legitimately shot EVERYTHING into it, and it BARELY died, im talking the last barrage of shots got my final wound through. That only happened because he brought the LOC to the front line, within range of 9" pistols and 12" guns. "And Tzeentch pays a hefty price for that battalion. For ONE teleportation. Even for 2 it was a fair mechanic, just the sheer number of „trolltastic“ rules is what makes Tzeentch so frustrating to face. " I just disagree with you here, i made my reasons known in the post. if taking 7 units of your choice, and 1 LOC (pretty much a must take anyways) to make a 1 drop army, that can do this iteration of a teleport for 180 pts is a hefty price....then sign me up in literally any other army for that "hefty price" . Theirs literally 0 tax on the battalion besides point cost. I do think the trolltastic rules and general power of the army combined compounds the problem, but i dont think changehost isnt also crazy. "But your way of explaining why has a flawed logic and therefore sounds very „emotional driven“ and hyperbolic. Which I can understand, its upsetting to see the other shooting army get such a treatment." Wheres my flawed logic? I demonstrated how our flying is different with the rules established, also how the armies play out after those teleports due to range and movement and restrictions. Of course its a bit emotionally driven, we've waited 2 years for KO to be fixed, and while they are a great army to play now, in the same breath GW put out some busted nonsense that has better shooting than an army whose literally meant to be THE shooting army. And beyond the shooting aspect, the army is just broken in multiple ways (FAQ helped tone it down, but im not convinced it was enough). Look, we see the game/army differently, that's apparent. However you cant call my logic flawed when your argument for dealing with teleport is "kill the 14 wound model".....Thats some flawed logic. Not looking for an argument, just dont like being dismissed when im giving critical and thought out assessments, even if they seem/are negative theirs a reason, and ive detailed those reasons, or at least how I see them. Wether thats correct or not, or you disagree or not, ive put effort into explaining my view.

I definitely see the irony lol, and it comes from someone who is 100% enjoying new KO but also plays a few different armies so its not just coming from a KO perspective. I am really miffed about them being better at shooting than KO though lol. But the main thing is that Ko literally rely on that fly high ability to drop within range of guns. We have 4" movement across the board on models that cant fly, we cant run and shoot ( except 1x in the fist turn in a specific sky port). Most the weapons are at 9-12" outside of special weapons which are 1 shot profiles and ship guns which are also 1 shot profiles. Exception being thunderers with rifles. We also cant gain any buffs inside the sky ship, so everything is as is. its AMAZING to be able to change flanks and redeploy where needed, but if you're not dropping within 12" you arent getting even half of your shooting in, and if the opponent gets to take their turn after you, you are getting charged, because you're only 12" away. And sure, ships provide some solid defensive bonuses, but you also cant cap objectives with 1 ship, so if you dont deploy, you're losing the game on objective play. Some battle plans you will straight up lose if you cant take some points in the early game. Flamers are 9" fly move, 18" range, have innate scroll buffs that can give them +3 to hit under certain conditions. And in conflagaration, can completely outgun anything in this game. All at D3 damage shots, which is our best damage profile shot only on special weapons that are 1 ofs per unit ( outside of cannon). The teleport is just all around a great tool to have, and its restrictions are laughable. Tablewide teleport any unit. No roll, no range, no command point. Just pick em up and drop em. Ships have rules, do enough damage, they cant fly high, have a flyer in combat, the ships cant shoot after flying high. baloons, holy within 6" to hitch. garrisoning in or out can only be done before movement, limits to how many in a ship ( often ****** leaders being left on the ground). Theirs alot of restrictions to play around, and while its far from hard, theirs checks and balances. Changehost teleport? Nahhh just scoop em up anywhere anytime as long as LoC is on board. The fact the battalion was initially 2 teleports is a complete joke.

Never knew this, just saw them played in my buddies SCE list and saw them as allies and figured, cool beans that might work lol. I guess are options at >90 are limited!

This is the big take away. How hard could it be for GW to make this call? Literally ****** 5 seconds. GW once again showing how incapable they are.

Leaving 40 points out of a 1k list feels like alot of points tbh. You can get a free triumph with it, but i dont think thats worth it. You could drop 5 thunderers, take 10 Arkco and a gyrocopter and be at 1000/1000. But the current list can def work, i just hate leaving points on the table!

You have no casters for an endless spell and we dont have many allies at 60 points or less. Aetherwings are 50, they could honestly be usefull against charges. Otherwise i would just take the extra CP for 50. It looks like you only have 1 battleline too, so either split the thunderers into 2 groups of 5, or make room for Arkco unit. you can load the frigate with thunderers, screen said frigate with the riggers/ hauler. Maybe take the collapsible compartment endrinwork to transport your heroes?

They really didnt though. Did they get some nerfs? For sure, and ya they'll be more manageable on the grand scale of things( mainly the DD changes), But those things that changed werent the sole reason for their current power, and even nerfed are still amazing. Changehost is still ridiculous. its a battalion that lets you take 1 LoC and 7 or 8 other units( cant remember). Thats the restriction. Build your army, and thats now a changehost. Battalions are supposed to tax you for gaining their benefit, maybe you have to take a unit you wouldnt normally, maybe even 2 or 3. Changehost lets you build your army, then slap a fantastic ability on them and make them a 1 drop. Its an auto include for every list because for a measely 180 points you get a 1 drop army, an amazing BOARD WIDE teleport, no restrictions on range besides LoC being on the field, plus the artifact and command point for the actual battalion. 180 points is not a reasonable cost for that level of viability in any list you run as DoT. KO have some really solid battalions too, but imagine if we had one that said "take a ironclad/frigate and 7 other units" that's all that would be played because its amazingly viable before even discussing its actualy battalion ability. I can't get over how lenient that battalion is for such an amazing ability. and then you got the covens just giving blanket modifiers which is ALWAYS busted. you give +1/-1 to your army in any stat and you've just made them better than their point cost. PE is the most obvious example with a +1 AS and the ability to give anything in the army -1 rend. DoT have the conflagaration coven to give their ranged -1 rend, making their units of horrors and flamers WAY better than their point cost, which is already IMO absurdly low. Imagine one of our sky ports giving -1 rend to all our weapons profiles, it'd be AMAZING. Host duplicious main offense was the Horrors being immune to battleshock with DD so they were able to keep armies in deployment because you had a brick of unmoveable horrors. I'm glad that isnt as powerful now. Sorry for the rant lol, i just dont think DoT are done being on top just yet, and now we have to deal with them for 5 more months. Idk if you've had a chance to play against DoT yet, specifically the Conflagaration coven, but it'll make you question that KO is in fact supposed to be the shooting themed army. I agree completely, you summed up the armies shortcomings in the current iteration of the game perfectly. And i do think they are capable of great things, but as it stands currently without any changes ( pt reductions would be huge and imo necesarry for competeing) its an uphill battle.

Unfortunately multiple DoT players mastered their new tome overnight lol. but i agree, in a balanced playing field, people playing armies they dont know very well should be worse then the opponent whose played the same tome for a long time, depending on individual skill and judgement. I think KO can definitely have some really solid results in the hands of someone whose mastered the book. But im also pessimistic of just how high that skill cap can take you, and personally my reaction is....not to the top. Because armies = power, and if the armys powerful you dont need perfect skills. Not saying the DoT players are just scrubs who picked up the army, the winner of LVO has been playing DoT for years apparently. However if an armies innately strong, obviously their gonna have better results. Idk if the meta will change that much tbh. Is everyone gonna start tailoring lists for DoT matchup? because alot of armies dont really have a counter as far as i can tell besides "screen them" and that is honestly a half baked plan at best. Even more so for KO where we have soooooo few bodies in the first place. Theres nothing to really counter or play against DoT alphastrike besides more screens. And with no new changes until summer, the next few weeks might be defining the meta for the next 5 months. I'd like to think of myself as pragmatic, but i know that comes off as pessimistic sometimes. KO have some sweet stuff in the tome, and i think for sure we can break into top 50 rankings. maybe top 20. MAYBE top 10. But #1.....im doubtful. Not when ****** like DoT/ PE exist and GW continues to horribly manage the power levels of their game. Ooh i didnt think of that. Maybe with that Brokk could actually be useful in lists lol ( great unit, just no room for him in current list building) .

I've got a 1500 pt tournament coming up, i think Skaven are my best bet. Ive got a few lists, wanted some advice. Leaning heavily towards Skyre stuff. We're assuming its 3 battleline because the store doesnt have the rules up yet and the person we talked to didnt know. So obviously things will change if its 2 battleline, but i believe most 1500 lists are 3 ( any insight is appreciated) 1s list GS on bell- 240 Master of magic Suspicous orb Warpgale 1 engineer- 100 pts MMMWP 40 clanrats- 200 points 20 clanrats- 120 points 20 clanrats- 120 points Swords and shields on the 20 blobs, spears on the 40. 2 WLC 2 Doomwheels 1 vermintide ( had a spare 40 pts) Figured i could stay back, protect my backline cannons with rats, shooting the threats off the objectives/table and sending up my Doomwheels to harass objectives. Goal being push the rats slowly towards the objectives while eliminating threats from range. Bell for Bshock immunity mainly. Not sure if i should drop 20 rats and the spell for a bombadier for redundancy. 2nd list is Warpseer- General- 320 points Master of magic suspicous stone Thanqoul- 400 points 4x warpflame throwers 40 clanrats w/ spears and shields -200 points 20x clanrats w/ Swords and shields -120 pts 20xclanrats / swords and shields -120 points hellpit abomination- 240 pts WLV -100 pts 1500/1500 I've tried this list against OBR PE 1x so far. Thanqoul had a hard time getting into range to really be effective with his warpflame, but his spellcasting is as always amazing. but thats 400 points that really didnt come into play at all ( i did get double turned on 2/3 and it was the one where if you control all 4 points you auto win, he swarmed my points and butchered my rats with the double turn) So I still have hope for Thanqoul, but it seems liek alot of the time he doesnt do much besides cast turn 1/2. Hellpit abomination is deadly, but that 2d6 random movement is straight up garbage. WLV is super hit or miss for me, i always try to bring it, but it completely whiffs half the time. And 100 points can go a long way in Skaventide.

Ahh my bad. Honestly, its still worded pretty badly. I THINK its saying "No"....but tbh im not sure either with how its worded,