Grdaat

If somebody makes a good point then I'll concede to them, as I've done in this thread. I'm not going to continually make the same arguments if they have a good reply to them. Because I don't want to hate the setting. I do try to get into it, but there's still serious problems with it that I've gone into and if nobody talks about those problems how do you expect to see them get resolved? I would love it if the setting improves, but they've added so much with so little forethought that it feels like they're removing just as much as they're adding in their attempts to expand it, and with literal decades of experience I feel that they should've thought the setting through enough to avoid these types of inconsistencies by now. It comes across as somebody's first attempt rather than experienced writers coming together to make a setting work. I also probably wouldn't have nearly as much a problem with it if their prices weren't so high for something they'll change their minds on in the next edition.

If you've read all the pages you'd see the parts where I agree to drop arguments that aren't going anywhere. Anything that comes up after that point is either something new, or with somebody new who wanted to reply to an earlier post. If other people are making these same arguments outside of this thread then I am unaware of them. I do not browse threads that make it clear they're about denigrating the setting, and aside from this thread where I gave my honest opinion on it I don't look up what other people think about the setting in general. Sure, it's subjective anyway and I'm not interested in arguing about what you feel is a lot of development and what I feel is little development.

Since never, because that didn't happen. People talked about how one setting differed from the other after discussing how things in one setting change over time, that's the off-topic part of the thread in a nutshell.

Which were you hoping for?

Legion of Azgorh (I've even posted a few lists in their thread months ago, and commented on other lists) Cities of Sigmar (mainly Freeguild, but I don't play them nearly as much as the Legion), and Bretonnia before they were relegated to Legends status (I was also posting lists in their own thread before that happened).

If you want to accuse people of trolling, do it to those who were saying AoS and WHFB are the same. They were who I was replying to initially before JackStreicher came in and misunderstood everything I was saying.

Yes I'm aware, what claims did I make that were untrue? The claim that the winds are different from the realms is true, and it doesn't matter that it has an explanation, that still means it's different which was my point. You'd have a point if I ever denied it as a continuation. I didn't, and you can't just claim I did because anyone can read this and see I never said that.

Brian Blessed did a great job, there's no doubt about that, and I agree who should only have one writer to keep things consistent. At least then they wouldn't have him go back and forth on whether or not he considers himself a Fyreslayer, and they could be consistent with his motivations. I honestly think it's a really bad idea to have him traipse around the realms like they did with the Old World because that means they're going to encounter and then throw away interesting parts of the setting, like that society I mentioned before, and it's also just going to make the people who are already familiar with the source material compare it constantly to the Old World adventures.

Yes, like I said it was meant to be a mythical origin story to the modern world. Because they're acting out of character. It doesn't matter if they have the same names when they don't act like their old selves. I already went over this above. They're also working with Chaos forces regularly and their methods and goals have changed as a result. That's different, Orcs in Fantasy were more motivated by greed than lust for battle with the exception of Black Orcs. One of the most prominent is known for taking territory then extorting travelers who'd pass through it because he wanted gold (it also led to his death when he saw Thorgrim's golden throne and decided he wanted it). Those Greenskins were also known for having other motivations and aspirations, one of them for example wanted to steal a lot of Bugman's beer so he could create a force to rival Grom's, so that he'd be looked at the same way. Those Greenskins are now just gone. And that's the same how? It's a part of it, but it's not the same.

While I get what they're going for, I would've been much happier if they didn't do that because trying to have somebody like that while also reminding you again and again and again that the old setting they're from is gone just feels like they're rubbing salt in the wound. I know they don't intend for it, but it still feels like mockery.

All of those work much differently than they used to. The winds were not actual lands you could walk on or live in, and their origin is also different since they used to come from the Realm of Chaos. The races are only similiar in name, and the same goes for the non-chaos gods. Then that person would be very ignorant and making a bad faith argument, since you cannot normally cross between these plains without hoping through dimension gates, the plains themselves are nothing like the Old World and neither is the setting. In short, you'd be claiming a shed is a castle because they both have four sides, a roof, a front, a back, and they're built upon the ground. In other words, it has just as much in common if we keep it to your vague criteria above. The explanation in LotR for the other fantasy races is they're still around, we just can't see/notice them (Elves, Dwarves, Ents) or they're now indistinguishable from humans (Hobbits). With that mindset I could make the claim that the modern world as a setting is just like LotR, and I'd be just as wrong as somebody claiming AoS is just like WHFB.

I've already explained it above, but I'll do it again because you missed it. The modern world is supposed to be a continuation of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, ie Lord of the Rings is a mythical origin story for the modern world. That's how it's a comparison, it's supposed to come before, but the modern world is just as different to middle earth as AoS is to Fantasy. They're not the same, characters act out of character, people who died are back without explanation while others who died are not, and Gorkamorka is new. The rules are different, the setting is different, the factions are different, the lore is different, the scale is different, the only thing that is the same is some characters have the same names, that's it.

My point is the modern world is just as different to Lord of the Rings as Age of Sigmar is to Warhammer Fantasy. It doesn't matter if one is supposed to come before the other, that does very little to tie them together.

And Lord of the Rings was meant to be a mythical origin story for the modern world, making the modern world the continuation of Lord of the Rings. How is it "not at all" like that?

That's like comparing the modern world to Lord of the Rings.

As a fan of that older game system, I can assure you it's just as annoying to see him in AoS, especially when the more interesting aspects around him are always dropped in favour of focusing on him (like the society he was assisting in Ghoulslayer, which had an interesting mix of old and new ideas and didn't fall into the AoS trope of being too big to worry about), and it's also annoying that the writers can't seem to figure out what to do with him, or even how he should act, like having him say he doesn't know if he's a Fyreslayer, which in his mind are a group who works for money even if Chaos forces are the ones paying them. In short I also don't think it was a good idea to bring him back.

I disagree there, you can find references in the Old World setting to an underwater race suspected of living in the sunken Lizardmen city, and the Dwarfs were already developing blimps as a better way to traverse the mountains. It would not be hard to bring either of them into the setting as their own faction.

Supposedly, we've not been given reason to believe they'd breach them but I'm fine with stopping here since I doubt this discussion will go anywhere.

So he could just close them without waiting for the evacuation. So same as last time. Why not? So long as nobody can get through it really doesn't matter what Chaos gets, especially when other forces can keep making new stuff.

Sure we can, last time he lost the All-points and still had enough time to go on a rampage through Shyish before he went back and shut the door. That's why I didn't list insignificant planets. You cannot list significant AoS cities because none of them are cities where Sigmar's doomed if they fall. Because they're still in the process of losing. You ever hear "Rome wasn't built in a day"? It didn't fall in a day either. Even the Horus Heresy took years to resolve and the Chaos factions had way more power and discipline back then. That's the point, that sort of thing hasn't happened for 10,000 years and now it happened on its own. Except for all the planets and systems around it.

Hammerhal was also built after the Age of Chaos (and even the Realmgate Wars) and there's no reason it cannot be rebuilt. Losing it does not mean losing a huge amount of territory (especially when we still don't know how big the realms are exactly, one continent is nothing if there's literally thousands in it) and even if Chaos got back to where it was that wouldn't mean much since that's where the Order factions started at. Contrast that with losing Vigilus, a move that cuts off half the entry points into half the galaxy, or losing Cadia, which split the galaxy in half, or losing Terra, which would kill the Imperium entirely. As for Bataar, they already have a flying armada, there's already mentions of how the Overlords have to fight the flying Chaos troops and Archaon's forces are literally shown running traveling across the sky. Sure you can, it's what they did after the Age of Chaos (and in Hammerhal's case, after the Realmgate Wars) and there's no reason to believe they cannot do it again. And? AoS has countries getting destroyed every Tuesday going by the descriptions in each book of the constant conquests, especially of the Ogors. Unless Sigmar shuts their doors again. Funny how people keep forgetting he can do that.

Hammerhal's not irreplaceable, if it fell they could just build a new city whereas none of the places I mentioned are replaceable, and all of them have major ramifications for the Imperium if they fell, with one of them outright killing the faction off. That was also in the older lore since at least 3rd edition.

I think if there's anything we've learned from the Horus Heresy, it's that GW doesn't have much logic as to what they choose to pull from their shelves. Something can have amazing sales and still become unsupported.

I don't think you can equally split the blame when the price and updates are squarely on GW. It's up to them to determine how much something costs, or how many people need to show interest before they update the range. This would be like putting part of the blame for why Horus Heresy started fading away on the consumer. The models were selling extremely well, some of their box sales even ended up being some of the fastest selling sets GW ever had, but then they took so long to get new stock in when they were sold out, or just didn't replace the old stock at all, that interest started dying out. The updates becoming more and more infrequent also played a big part (although that one could be partially blamed on an unfortunate death). So even if LoA were selling like crazy I'm unsure if it would've made that much difference. FW have shown that they can take a very long time to get something back in stock, then the sales numbers for it still don't look good because people aren't able to buy it, and I think we'd get that different catch 22 where it doesn't matter how well or how little they're selling.

Buying knock-offs and complaining about a lack of updates are both consequences of GW's actions. Not much else you can do when you want to field something no longer in production, or already have a full army that loses most of its games thanks to power creep.