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Chaos Lord on Karkadrak is a 3+, 5++, isn't he? Yeah, I would bypass as much as I could with the Spirit Hosts. But, are you trying to buy time to earn objective points, or trying to kill the guy? 6 SHs is 18 wounds, and it looks like this guy has no trouble putting out at least 6 wounds, 2 of which mortal, against a 4+ save each combat if you prevent him from charging. D3 more mortals if he does. That's one round (two combats) without healing or Deathless Spirit saves. That's how long you can tie him up, or how long you have to kill him. At 9 wounds you would need two combat phases yourself, at full 6 bases, to do that (around 6 mortals per combat). That's a tall order. Either paring the SHs with Krulghast, or a general with Ruler, to survive might buy you another round if the dice are in your favor, or trying to do as much damage as possible with either a ST or KoSoES and spending a CP, might be able to take him down, but both are hard prospects to deal with. Honestly, against a guy like that I'd opt to go more for Emerald Host to tie him down right away and have so many more wounds he has to chew through before going anywhere, or Sorrowmourn for basically the same reason and also a bunch of mortal wound potential and a higher possibility of killing him without taking too many losses can't be healed. I can't really tell you what to cut or where to put things. I'd start by trying to counter each of his strengths as best as possible, instead. Hordes get Reapers, 3+ saves get mortal wounds, if your opponent does a lot of damage invest in better save after saves and more wounds on the table. Objectives first, always.

The only thing I'd consider is what your opponent tends to bring. From the sounds of it a lot of horde units? This list seems set up more to deal with, mostly, smaller unit sizes. You're asking your horde killers, the Reapers, to chew through a lot by themselves. One thing you could do about that is dropping the Chainghasts for an Endless Spell, like the Purple Sun or some other spell that does more damage the more models it touches. That will help thin the masses a bit. Where is the ST and the KoS going? Spirit Hosts benefit from rerolling 1's way more than they do extra attacks or other buffs. That's why I always pair mine with a Spirit Torment. Plus, a ST with Ruler of the Spirit Hosts can bring full bases back at full health, even if a base was damaged. But, that's a lot of resources to invest if you don't plan on them being a main source of mortal wounds. You could drop the Spirit Hosts to load up on more Bladegheists or more Reapers, depending if you need higher damage output or to kill more horde units, respectively. If your KoS with Ruler is going to accompany anyone I'm guessing it's the Bladegheists for Shroudguard. That's great, but you could always try Cloaked in Shadow. He might do more surviving longer to give out the Frenzied save for the Shroudguard than he might bringing back 1-3 models. Especially if you could Specture Lure them. Not sure how much ranged you're fighting against. If you haven't yet, I'd also suggest getting the new hero. The Krulghast Cruciator could help with the Reapers or another unit you know a lot of damage is going to be allocated to them.

You can plug in unit data here and visualize the data: https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/ When comparing a unit of Bladegheists to the same size unit of Dreadscythes the warscroll change allows the Dreadscythes to now out damages, on average, the Bladegheist unit in two of the four scenarios that Bladegheists find themselves in. Those scenarios being fighting without a charge, fighting after a charge, fighting without a charge but with a Spirit Torment, and fighting after a charge with a Spirit Torment. The Dreadscythes win out in any scenario where a Spirit Torment is not with the Bladegheists. Bladegheists still win out if a Spirit Torment is factored in. What this means is that if the only hero support the Dreadscythes have is Olynder for her battalion, which is going to be the likely scenario, they'll still put out respectable damage, especially when standing and fighting, and now allow us a third unit capable of filling in a niche with damage. Now you're not screwed if your Bladegheists get deleted and you didn't bring Reapers. Plus battalion bonus. Also, a Knight of Shrouds Command Ability, either one, will benefit the Dreadscythes more than the Bladegheists. Both benefit, of course, but the Dreadscythes benefit more from a 4+ lowering to a 3+, and exploding 6's on extra attacks.

I am really excited to run the Harridans right now. That whole battalion is amazing.

Completed my math and strategy sessions for now and I've included a total of three potential Mortal Reign lists in the guide. None are proven, so I'd appreciate if anyone runs them to report back on how they fared. I plan on running all three as soon as I can and based on feedback narrow down to a single list to carry on the name. You can see them here. If Chrome's new selected text linking doesn't work, you can access my guide here, and see the lists at the bottom. Can't wait to hear more. I wants the details.

Updated my Mortal Reign list to Mortal Reign mk. 3 - Dolorous Guard, which is valid if/until the White Dwarf battalions are FAQed out. I'll be making another version not dependent on White Dwarf, but it'll likely no longer be a mortal wounds centric list. I'm finding it pretty hard to get the same mix of units and regeneration without the battalion. Feedback welcome

I'd give the Harridans a run. 10 for 180 and you're at 1980. They, with their update, can now outdamage Bladeybois if there's no ST for Fearful Frenzy.

My guide has been updated with the Be'lakor additions. Please, please, please have a look and let me know anywhere I am inaccurate or things are unclear. Please also keep in mind that it's also kind of hard to keep it all clear since we're in flux right now, but I try to note that where I can. If I made an assumption without a caveat, let me know. Also, I need some help if anyone's willing. I will be working on sample lists later, but I'm not playing games as often as I used to be for obvious reasons, and definitely not full 2K games. I would like to hear any lists you guys can come up with that seem to play well, especially with the new additions. In order to consider your list, I'd want to know the following: Point value of the list (aiming for 2K lists more than anything) The win/lose ratio of the list with no or very minor alterations between the games At least 3 wins with the list against different armies (same opponent is fine) The purpose of each of the units in the list, their configurations, and their strategy Whether or not you feel the list is competitive I'll post your list in my guide's sample section and credit you however you want for the work. Thanks in advance

Precedence has been set in both directions, unfortunately. That's where a lot of this debate is coming from. Fanatical Faith is an Battle Trait. Devoted Disciple is a Command Trait. It makes sense to me (albeit, a bit heavy handed) that DD would operate differently since both abilities remain in effect where they overlap. Deathless Spirits is an Battle Trait. Phantasmal Torture is a character ability. It requires a trigger, so a chance of failure. Hopefully that makes a difference. And Nighthaunt need this. But you're right; word-wise, they are almost identical. You could be right about the future ruling, and that would be both sad and infuriating. Wording like this is maddeningly upsetting and should not make it to print. I'm on record before saying that it seems GW often makes vague rules or wording mistakes almost on purpose. It shouldn't be up to a bunch of nerds "um, actually-ing" a rule nuance like this to death, but this is what they trained us to do. Maybe it generates buzz, I don't know. Not that these are actual sources, but other sites have started to weigh in: Goonhammer: "As a very nice bonus, Empowering Excruciation makes it so if you successfully wound an enemy model all Nighthaunt units wholly within 12” of the Cruciator get a 5+ Feel No Pain instead of the usual 6, which is huge for Nighthaunts given their saves cannot be improved." Bell of Lost Souls: "Causing your Nighthaunt units wholly within 12″ to get their Deathless Spirits battle trait “save” on a 5+ vs a 6+ is a big deal. You know the math and I’ve seen the difference in combat between armies that have a 6+ vs a 5+ “extra” save. This ability makes taking this model worth it." While the above are not official sources, their reviewers have said before they actually play the pre-releases and talk to GW before they write about them. No telling if they did so this time around, but they probably wouldn't comment on it if they felt they'd have to go back and rewrite their statements and issue addendums/apologies later. He's not my friend. Kind of important to point out. He has no incentive to side with me, and has put me and others in our places when we've been wrong about something (nicely, he isn't a ******). He's got so many years of experience playing and working for GW that I take his word even when I don't like it, which is the point. He knew the ruling. He got into more detail that I, frankly, don't understand, but made sense the way he put it. I would likely quote him wrong if I tried to repeat it since I didn't write it down.

I've picked up my pre-order of Be'lakor and the Krulghast Cruciator today and got right to work putting him together. Let me just tell you, while it's not a frustrating model to put together pay special mind to the inner cloak and arms (steps 1, 2, and 6). They have fittings, but they don't line up exact across the model, so tack down along the edges of the cloak instead of the fittings and the rest of the model will actually fit together. You'll know by piece 5, the belt, if you've mis-fit anything, and that's far too late. I also took the time to talk to the manager of my Games Workshop store while I was there. To give some background, he manages the only store in my town, he's a certified judge, and he's a tournament organizer. I asked him about the Krulghast and his Empowering Excruciation ability. Namely, I asked whether or not the Deathless Spirits, when empowered by this ability, still prevents mortal wounds along with normal wounds. Long story short; it does. Long story slightly longer, he explained similar logic I used here earlier back to me without my prompting. Deathless Spirits is being directly referenced in the KC's warscroll, so it is not replacing any part of that base rule. Instead, what is happening is that Empowering Excruciation is providing an effect, that effect being a 5+ to trigger something, and that something being Deathless Spirits, which itself is already in effect and is enabled when taking wounds and mortal wounds per the Battle Trait. When I asked if the lack of the word "mortal" in the KC's ability would somehow remove that aspect of Deathless Spirits he said, "unless the ability specifically says 'this replaces Deathless Spirits (as found in the Nighthaunt Battletome)' then it is pretty clear. Deathless still works the way it does in the book, just on a 5+, but only after Phantasmal Torture allocated a wound on an enemy model." He said this without even glancing at the entry from the book that I had opened for him. He had heard this already. I trust him. Not just because he reinforced my point of view on this particular ability this time, but because he's corrected me or my understanding of things many times before. And he has always been backed up by FAQs or Designer's Commentary soon afterward if it didn't already exist, or has been able to point out examples or sources to me across both AoS and 40K. So, moving forward, I will be operating under the assumptions above and will eventually update my guide with this in mind. I also asked him what TOTEM means. It's a keyword that specifically means "all instances of this warscroll has an ability or effect that alters a base rule." But, he pointed out, it can only appear when either all models in a unit possess this ability, or it is a single model unit like a hero or monster. Glaivewraith Stalkers, for example, can have a Deathbeat Drummer. The Drummer alters a base rule, enabling retreat and charge in the same turn while he exists within the unit, and so is an "icon bearer," specifically a "musician." But, because the unit can include any number of Drummers, 0 for example, the warscroll doesn't contain the keyword. A unit of any number of Glaivewraiths, but 0 of them being a Deathbeat Drummer, would invalidate that keyword on the warscroll. As such, it will only appear when it is always true.

I don't play DoK, so I'll rightfully defer to anyone who does on how or why this works the way it does. Consensus is that the Devoted Disciple is an upgrade, because it allows for both saves to happen. IE: if wholly within 12" of a general and damage is taken, if normal wound it gets a 5+, but if it's a mortal there's still the 6+. I have updated this post reflecting that. Not going to lie, if it turns out Empowering Excruciation is intended to negate only normal wounds, I'm going to be livid and ask GW why we are constantly the whipping post for the rest of the game. It would then be an intentionally muddy rule (because, let's be honest, with the same name how can it not be?) and that's malicious. There have been many reasons to walk away from the table as a NH player lately and this would only add to it. Seriously, if the FAQ releases and I'm wrong, the next post out of me might be asking if anyone wants to buy 280 models of Nighthaunt. Because I have other games I can go play with less frustration.

Then the best thing we can do is write the FAQ team (AoSFAQ@gwplc.com) and ask for clarification. They currently have a 4-week FAQ cycle, so we will have some time to think on it.

Tournaments are exactly why rules, even if slightly different than the base rule, have different names. You can't expect every player, and every organizer, to memorize every slightly nuance of a handful of rules that all bear the same name. And you can't grind every game you play to a halt to consult a judge every time you take damage. By naming it Deathless Spirits it's shorthanding it to the standing rule of Deathless Spirits. A judge will certainly rule that the KC is only lowering the threshold and not removing mortals from the equation. Otherwise, again, it'd be called something else. Everliving Ghasts, or something. What's happening here is that Fanatical Faith was supported by Devoted Disciple. It's a new ability, Any unit that has Devoted Desciple also has Fanatical Faith. Different name, different ability. The tradeoff here is that one always-on ability is being replaced with another always-on ability. The Krulghast Cruciator is not replacing anything. Deathless Spirits isn't being replaced by Deathless (but not quite) Spirits. It's still Deathless Spirits.

This isn't even the same argument... Godbone Armor is it's own thing. It doesn't overwrite or alter any standing rule for OBR. Godbone and Deathless Warriors can both exist together. This is the base ability, as written in the battletome. Nothing about it suggests that it should also negate mortals. It's a flat -1 normal wound per phase the unit takes damage. No roll, no special requirements. Flat damage reduction. All the other places you could review this artefact, like Goonhammer, SpikeyBits, BellofLostSouls, etc. all reviewed it and weighed in on it being just a wound-negator, and that it's pretty damn powerful as it is. It's never been FAQed to include mortals, or otherwise rewritten to say anything different, because it does exactly what it is intended to do. The hero that has it follows the following sting of events: Hero is allocated a normal wound. Hero's Godbone negates it. Hero is allocated another normal wound. Deathless Warriors has a chance to negate it on a 6+. Next phase, hero is allocated a mortal wound. Deathless Warriors has a chance to negate it on a 6+.

I don't think that's the case. Otherwise they'd rename the ability. There's precedence for this in Shroudguard: Frenzied Fervour replaces Deathless Spirits, and so they have to spell it out and indicate all aspects of it. This is key to understand, because the KoS or Reikenor that's leading a Shroudguard doesn't benefit from Frenzied, he only gets Deathless. He doesn't lose Deathless just because the rule Frenzied doesn't say he keeps it. Deathless is Deathless. Deathless includes mortal wounds. If this ability doesn't include mortal wounds it's not Deathless, and would have it's own name.

I assume you mean the wound he deals with Phantasmal Torture? Yeah, it's standard, not mortal, but comes at rend -2. At +3/+3 any buffs to help that will almost ensure it, such as a Spirit Torment allowing RR1s and/or a GoS's +1 to Wound. What? Where you guys getting this? The rule, straight from a freshly downloaded KC from Games Workshop reads: Deathless Spirits is: Since KC's ability directly references Deathless Spirits, and is not replacing it, it simply lowers the threshold of a successful negation from a 6+ to 5+.

@Inquisitorsz Summed it up pretty well. The only things I'll add are that, right now, we are very much an objective-hunting army. We have superior mobility compared to other armies, and can usually claim objectives early. Holding them, or taking them from the opponent, can be a challenge, though, so you will want some tactical planning in your pocket. I suggest looking at my NH guide. I will be updating it with the new Broken Realms update as soon as I have some time digesting the book when it's in my hands, but is up-to-date beyond that. DON'T BUILD IT! You will hate yourself trying to paint this thing after it's built. I built the horses, carriage wheels, and carriage as separate and left everything else loose so I could paint around the edges. You can still base it the same way. The model sort of rises off of the base like it's flying away, so it will be really easy to keep the ethereal flying theme. You can see mine about 2/3 down the page here. My build process is here.

It was a stab at trying to define it. I just noticed that units with the TOTEM key word in other armies tend to be altering standing rules of an army in some way instead of replacing or tacking on. The KC is altering Deathless Spirits to lower the existing value by 1, so TOTEM, but the Deathbeat Drummer of a unit of Glaivewraith Stalkers, which is a standard bearer, enables retreat and charge, which doesn't gain the keyword. Adding retreat is an addition to the rule. The way I'm seeing it, TOTEM is another way of saying "this unit will modify a golden/allegiant/army rule somewhere." And because GW is very strict with the way they word things, modify is different than adding or removing. I'll write the FAQs team about it, because I think we need to be sure and there may be tactics and rules to be aware of with such a keyword. Yes we care! How beautiful! I am always in constant jealousy of everyone else's paint jobs around here. Welcome! Our graves are fresh and our torment eternal. Here's your bloody rusted glaive, have fun stabbing the fleshies!

It is. As far as I understand it, the keyword TOTEM means that is altering a previously-referenced ability or warscroll, rather than replacing it with a new ability. Deathless Spirits vs the Shroudguard's Frenzied Fervour, for example. The former still follows all the same rules, just gets changed, while the latter has its own rules.

Woah, woah, woah, guys. Nothing will change the way Nighthaunt plays until a new Battletome happens. They can't rewrite an entire faction with a subsection of a narrative book. That would be way way worse than what we got. What this is is some extra toys for us to use until either an updated Battletome, or an AoS 3.0 Battletome, gets released. Until then, we can just as easily assume that every model we have right now will either be exactly the same or completely re-written in the new book, and either way be both right or wrong at the same time. Anyway, as far as the Krulghast Cruciator goes, they pretty plainly called him a "support hero," which I am taking to mean he is best paired with another hero. I'm envisioning something like him and a Spirit Torment together with a maxed unit of Bladegeists. 120+120+320=560 points. You'd get a full unit buffed by the Spirit Torment to reroll misses, a 5++ save that also applies to the Spirit Tormen so it's not so easy to snipe him, and the ST's ability to restore models or wounds to himself or the KC on the battleshock phase. Speaking plainly, the Krulghast's ability is not limited to "summonable," so even the heroes within 12" of him get the 5+ save, including himself. This makes it much more balanced in terms of risk/reward to push him, another hero, and a unit of your choice forward on the board and be aggressive. 9 Spirit Hosts, the ST and the KC, 600 points, and the murderball now can survive more wounds on a 5++ and be even more of a "must kill" threat.

This is how I ended up with nearly 300 models... I'm not exaggerating.

We're in a really exciting time for Death, I think. /inhales (story spoilers) (speculation based on story) My predictions: 1. We will have new battalions and, eventually, subfactions. The pull Nagash had over both Lady Olynder and Kurdoss will wane, letting both pull the Nighthaunt in differing directions, maybe even pitting them against each other. 2. The Krulghast Cruciator will the new way the Nighthaunt continue to add to their ranks, in a similar fashion as the Ossiarch's Mortisan Boneshaper (who in lore are tasked with the actual creation of new Bonereapers). What this means in terms of rules, who's to say. Hopefully with actual in-game new recruits.

This weekend I finally got around to playing again and decided to try out a new leader. Tomb Banshee (Leader) (210) Grimghast Reaper (135) x2 Spirit Host (220) x2 Chainrasp (80) Total: 1000 Dagger: Tomb Banshee, Chainrasp | Hammer: Grimghast Reaper, Spirit Host | Shield: Grimghast Reaper, Spirit Host At a lighter cost, the Tomb Banshee allowed me to do a pairing of Reaper/Spirit Host a couple times, and have an extra body in the Chainrasp. In previous games, that lone Chainrasp has proved more valuable than it seems; you won't be putting him in combat if you can help it, so double moves every round makes for a speedy guy. And if that's not beneficial to your game, he's a throw-away unit that you can use to slow someone else down. I went up against a melee-only Sylvaneth group and played the scenario where there are 6 objectives and if you and your opponent have any of them by the end of the turn you can burn one, first to 4 burns wins. I end up tying the game. My leaders tend to do almost nothing in games, so the Tomb Banshee having some ranged allowed me to put her close enough to scream, but still out of danger. This amounted to a fair few damage, too. Whenever I had a spare triple I could use Frightful Touch (she has the runemark and nothing says a ranged attack can't be buffed so having her limited attacks all hit for 5 damage at 9 inches is nice). As always, the pairing of a Spirit Host to almost guarantee a little damage, potential Frightful Touch to ensure a bit more damage, and a Reaper's Soul-marked Prey to really increase damage output (against enemies of 4 toughness or lower), serves to dish out enough damage to be threats to be targeted. Still, just a little lacklustre in the damage output for all those dice you're banking, and it's way more common that you won't be firing off more than maybe the double. Still, not bad. Next time I will be combining Reapers and Bladegheists. 4 Strength seems to be the sweet-spot for damage output in this game, and with a reaper pushing that up to 5 you can pretty much bank on a 3+ roll. Costs less than a Spirit Host, too, but also more fragile. I'll see what I can come up with.

Just a few questions/things to point out. For Shroudguard, who is the leader for it? I'm assuming it's the KoSoES, which if so that's great. If it's Reikenor, then unless you are keeping him with the 'guard as they are moving up the board they won't get their 5+ save. Just remember he won't get that +3 to cast if he saves the self-damage. You have to roll it, though. As for the option of Olynder, if you want to use her for spell casting you are better off with the GoS with Wychlight or Reikenor because they'll get at least +1 to the cast. Olynder will also just soak up threat on the board. If you do decide to play her, either deepstrike her later in the game like on turn 2 or 3, or bring her out in either a clutch situation or to take pressure off of a more important setup elsewhere on the board. If, for some reason, your opponent doesn't think she's a threat then she can deal a ton of mortals on someone's hero. Vampire Lord ally is nice. Really nice. Especially in the thick of high-combat units. But, he doesn't have ethereal or any other allegiance survivability buff available to him, so if your opponent can snipe him he will go down fast. Be ready to always Mystic Shield himself. Having your general be a Dreadblade Harrow is good and fine, but having him with Ruler of the Spirit Hosts means you will either have to put him where the model return is going to be needed before the Hero phase it could happen occurs--which means having him close to the action--or you will have to Spectral Summons units back to him to heal up which means a wasted turn of potential healing and only for D3 models. If your plan is to have him teleport to an objective and then summon a unit there to defend it and will sit with them, that's a fine way of using him, but I would suggest looking at Cloaked in Shadow for a defensive option, Terrifying Entity only if your opponent is fielding units with 6 or less bravery, or Hatred of the Living if you plan on him making any attacks toward the end of the game once his teleportation shenanigans have paid off.