EnixLHQ

Kind of hard when it's hard-targeted for deletion with extreme prejudice. You got yours destroyed after deployment. When I play the BC I give it some hero cover at least in the early game. None of our cheap heroes are fast enough to keep up with it at full speed, though, so it either accompanies another unit and hero as they walk up the board acting as a full support/fence piece, or I let it go ham by itself if the levels came on fast (or is otherwise not doing anything). I share your feels about the Coach. It's too damn pretty not to be used, but it's no Celestial Hurricanum. If those points are better spent elsewhere...

Glad to see their experience was a lot like mine, though I didn't bring a Black Coach. Also glad to see us hold up to full 2k games, though the spread of opponents isn't comprehensive it was a nice selection. Overall, pretty good. I like the lists, too. But it highlights just how badly we need a better monster. Mannfred did all the heavy lifting. Ellarr's second list is 10 points over.

I think that's true with any ally choice. If you're picking an ally to win the game with then you're not really playing the strengths of Nighthaunt. You're propping up your ally. At which point, play the ally's faction instead. Doing some research on Blood Knights, they used to be a popular ally choice a while back. They were usually taken as an anti-calvary or anti-ranged unit, intended to take a few hits until another NH unit came to clean up. They fell out of favor pretty quickly, though, right before we got LoG. And never came back. I imagine our Emerald Host helps with that. If anyone thinks they are worth a mention I'll add them to the guide, but it seems like they may be more of a red herring.

What do we think of Blood Knights as allies? 195 points, 5 models, 3 wounds each, 3+ Save, 10" move, 10 Bravery. 6 attacks each, half of which are 3+/3+/-1 with the leader getting another attack. Can pass over non-mounted enemy models with 3 or less and if it does so roll a 2+ and deal D3 mortals. +1 damage to the lances if the unit charges. And, if they kill anything heal up to D3 wounds. Their Standard Bearer ability would have no use as allies, but everything else is super solid. Compared to our Hexwraiths the Blood Knights cost 45 more points, +1 wound per base, +1 save but no Ethereal, +2" move but no fly. +2 attacks, one for the lancer and one for the horse, but no Frightful Touch on the lancer, +1 to hit for the lancer, +1 to wound for the horse. Doesn't require a subfaction to get +1 attacks on a charge. Passing over models has a wound and mount limit compared to Spectral Hunters, but triggers on a 2+ instead of a 5+ and deals D3 instead of 1 mortal wound. And healing, which Hexwraiths don't get but get a ward save instead if a hero is near by.

Changed both for accuracy. Also updated Belladamma per the FAQ: Pack Alpha lasts until your next hero phase. This opens up some additional uses of the 6" pile in.

Ah, the FAQs... I'll review and update both your points here. I've gotten a few 3.0 games in, and seen a few battle reports. First thing to be aware of is that your opponent is going through the same thing. They have to reduce troop size, deal with coherency, and make reinforcement choices. So you're not alone even on the table. That being said, what you reinforce will come down to your goals and what you expect to face. Nothing's "dead" in terms of playability. 9 Spirit Hosts is still perfectly viable, as long as you don't expect to put them all in melee range. They can still camp an objective and take a few hits. Or they can form two lines baked up by a hero. Not all of them will swing, but even if you lose models your round-to-round amount of swings will relatively stay the same as you pile in to fill holes. Personally, I'm not reinforcing anything, yet. I'm finding it to feel a bit better with more units on the table than having a double-wide or two. Even if my opponent is reinforcing, I usually have two or more units available to pinch them with, which also means more chances at Wave of Terror. And if I had to bet on anything it'll be that getting WoT off is still the biggest priority to hit.

Both Mortarchs added to the guide. As always, critiques and suggestions welcome. Edit: Just made some edits, refresh if you were already taking a look.

Manny-fred? Okay, I'll get right on it. And, yeah, not included only because I am sourcing an allies list from you guys in the community. I think I've played one game with an ally ever and had a poor experience, so I'm sourcing that kind of info from you guys. Plus it helps narrow down the research time it takes. For example, now that he's been mentioned I'm going to look him up, his ability kit, point cost, and then build a battle profile on him. I'll then take that profile and test it in a few scenarios that I'd think we'd commonly meet, and then generalize the results. This is how I come up with the pros and cons for most of the units. It takes a bit of time.

Updated guide with an allies list. Thanks to @Landohammer for their suggestions. Please let me know if there are any changes or additions that should be considered for that section. You will find it right after the Mourngul.

It's also narrative. They've emphasized very heavily since 2.0 that armies currently featured in stories are the ones getting new models, rules, or books. Nighthaunt, via Olynder, was last featured in Be'lakor as being "tricked" by the titular character into helping razing a town. We'll have to wait until either she or some facet of the army rises to prominence again. The Necroquake being undone, Nagash healing, and the roaming bands of Nighthaunt are all things that have been resolved. Olynder and her agreement to stay her curse on Be'lakor for the time being, Reikenor and his search for secrets and targeting the new Stormcast at Olynder's beckoning, the Kulghast Cruciators and their coalescing power, and the Emerald Host itself are storylines that have not yet resolved that may be ways we gain enough momentum leading up to a book release. They could also start digging into what actually happens when you stop a Necroquake, I suppose, but since that was a main feature of Soul Wars I think that's dead and gone. If I were to speculate, I'd think we'd start seeing stories about Be'lakor's curse flaring up. Either the Emerald Host reaches him and results in a new battle to take Belly down a peg, perhaps led by Olynder herself, or he comes up with a new plan and new promises that further Olynder's involvement with him and Chaos and gives rise to new troops under her command. I would be lying if I said I would be disappointed with Olynder trading one master for another, but given that she could backstab him or simply enforce the curse at any time gives me hope on that potential storyline. Plus, kind of exciting to think that Nighthaunt might be the first Chaos-aligned Death faction if that kind of story were to pan out. At any rate, we won't get a new book until we see signs of Nighthaunt being important to a story again. They could use the Nighthaunt book itself to make that importance, but I think we'll see signs of it before that happens thanks to Be'lakor's curse.

So... How about that allies list? Because I don't really know them.

We can still do the mortal wound death ball of Spirit Hosts and a Spirit Torment. We can also use Emerald Host to get the Hexwraiths swinging for a few, too. The loss of Ruler of the Spirit Host might mean taking Mystic Tome Emerald Lifeswarm on the ST, or keeping a Black Coach nearby, but with the extra CPs and the KoSoES the Hexwraiths should reliably get additional rolls to fish with. Add in some Oly and support units and you might have a good team.

Okay, just making sure I was following. That sounds rough. I was often in the same situation against Cities prior to 3.0. Things changed a bit, at least until the new shenanigans are figured out. Looking back, what other units, artifacts, or spells do you think you could have brought to change the outcome?

The max he could have gained is still +1 to save rolls. All-out Defense would have been a waste for them unless you had a -1 to Save against him somewhere. Same with Finest Hour. Was he saying he had +2 or +3 saves?

Can't go wrong with more Reapers. Like, ever. I'm also a fan of the new Dreadscythe Harridans. Their new warscroll and a well-timed All-out Attack, Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed CA, or Knight of Shrouds on foot CA can really up their damage. Bladegheists are also a good pick if you like jumping around a lot with charges. They are more likely to get Wave of Terror from retreat/charge shenanigans. Behemoth and Monster are not interchangeable or mutually exclusive. A Behemoth is a role in battle for big things. Plenty of things are Behemoths without being monsters. Our Black Coach, the Celestial Hurricanum, Mortis Engine/Coven Throne, and others. Meanwhile a Monster is a unit type, a keyword on a warscroll. Usually Monsters are bigger and badder units offset with a degrading profile (though not always). A Monster can exist without being a Behemoth, but it's rare. For example, a hero under the effect of a Metamorphosis spell. To simplify it: Behemoth - Any big unit that performs the role of Behemoth in battle. This role is determined by Pitched Profile. Monster - A big thing that is specifically a Monster on their warscroll. This is determined by the keyword on the warscroll.

Came across this on reddit:

My local group, for a long time, didn't play by 2nd Ed pile-in. We eventually switched when we started playing against more people so we could be fully compliant with rules, but it was such a stealth nerf we were constantly frustrated by it.

Exactly this. For anyone without fly, when you move models they can't overlap or pass across any other model's base or the battlefield edge. They have to trace all curves, banks, and inclines as distance for that 3" move. But for us, since we can fly, we can ignore all that during pile in. Cohesion is easier to maintain and getting your champions in range is easier. And since it's "must finish the move no further from then nearest enemy unit than it was at the start of the move" you can jostle and resposition even if you're in base-to-base contact with the enemy. That used to lock you in before.

My friends and I had planned on playing a 1k game today, but it spontaneously turned into an escalation league event. Starting at 750 points we'll be adding 250 each game until 3k just to get a feel for the rules at each encounter size. I played one game today at 750 with the following list: Some takeaways: First, the smaller table size (we played 30x44) meant that a first turn fight was inevitable, and that was a good thing. The game got going right away, and choices felt way more impactful. You saw the results of a good or bad choice almost immediately. This includes my instant regret of putting my KC in harm's way before he was ready and losing him. Balance! Yes! Despite me misjudging measurements and getting my hero killed in the opening volley, and playing the entire rest of the game without a hero at all and no ward save, I still went toe-to-toe and came out the winner in the end. It literally went down to the last guys, my Reapers against his Freeguild greatswords, about 4 men each, the fact I got my Battle Tactics completed pretty reliably each round, and achieving my Grand Strat. I feel like I rolled fairly average, and that my opponent did, too. Unit champions and command abilities are so important now. Again, no hero, no ward save, no extra command points, no ranged...nothing. But the ability to reliably give my Reapers and Harridans All-out Attack made an incredible difference. It kept my opponent on the back foot, using his CP on All-out Defense or an allegiant CA. I felt like I was a vicious, relentless attacker the whole game, and that felt amazing. All the things you can do in your opponent's turn is a really nice way to catch them off guard. We were both used to not getting clocked for our choices in our own turn and it came as a shock when a unit Redeployed or Unleash Hell activated. Long live the new pile in rule. Can safely say this reignited the love of the game for my friends today. We got through two games, first were my friends and then a second where I took on the winner. Even going slowly, triple-checking the rules each phase, we were able to get through both in decent time. As we get faster and the army size increases, we can still probably get two in each time. This means we all get to play, which made everyone happy.

For 50 points consider Suffocating Gravetide. Actually pretty good against horde targets thanks to the recent change to it. Just set it up and fling it at the most numerous unit and it's like a Frightful Touch with that many attacks. See my next post below this. Probably the second-worse off group with the new restriction on unit sizes. They can only be reinforced once, so max 8, no new wounds to compensate for that, but for a +2 unbind within their short range if you do reinforce them. I hate this change, but I can't deny it's balanced for their abilities and damage potential. It's just an 8 wound blob, more than our heroes but less than our units. Should be pretty used managing that.

My opinion only, but yeah, a bit too much for 1k. We don't really know how we play yet. That being said, I've got a maybe game this weekend and here's what I was going to run.

Oof. Bit of a loaded question right now. First, the negatives: We're not a tanky army. 9 Spirit Hosts, which is all of your reinforcements at 1k, is a lot of wounds and you don't lose a base until you lose 3 of them, but our Ethereal 4+ and 6+ ward only goes so far. I suppose at a 1k game there won't be too much firepower you'll have to contend with, but that's a lot of points in one basket. I'd consider something to shore up the deficit. A Krulghast Cruciator (a model you haven't listed you got) can help, with the ward buff he brings. Spirit Torment with Mystic Tome and Shademist can also help, though it's a spell and can be unbound. You will be relying on Ruler of the Spirit Host to keep the Spirit Hosts around, which means you will also want to protect your Spirit Torment at all costs. Lastly, a list like this lacks firepower. Spirit Hosts can do a surprising amount of mortals if you roll well, but that's a chance. Positives: Welcome to an army of mobility! Spirit Hosts and Chanrasps are slow on their warscroll, but between shoving half your army into Underworlds for redeploy, Spectral Summons with our now more plentiful Command Points, and Fly, not much will stop them. If you claim some early objectives and keep more than your opponent, especially with the Predator's Domain Grand Strategy and taking any in your opponent's zone, you stand a good chance at an early game lead. If you take the Reikenor's Condemned Procession your Chainrasps get a damage buff as long as the Spirit Torment or Chainghasts are around, and get a speed buff with a CP, all while keeping your command trait. You'll lose the Mystic Tome, or any other artefact, for a Corpse Candle, though, but it can come in pinch during a fight; 1 guaranteed mortal wound to an enemy model plus +1 to hit for the ST, or gamble a bit and take a wound on your ST (and fail the ward roll) and get +1 hit and +1 wound. Maybe Captured Soul Energy will heal it up later. Pretty much sums up all of our current benefits and issues any list would have.

I like using Endless Spells as a form of distraction. "Hey, here's this big ol' footprint next to your hero or important unit. Want to leave it there or dispel it? Go ahead, one less spell to cast on me, then." Yes, unbinding, though we have ways to get around that for spells we want, the act of casting an endless spell is almost always going to provoke an unbind roll. Another way to fish for a distraction while our Spectral Lure or Shademist is still on the ticket to be cast next. On the monster front, don't forget we all get access to Metamorphosis this battlepack. Temporary monster status for a chosen hero. Another spell, one likely to have an unbind attempt, and none of the increased damage or health for being a monster, but hey, it's free. Maybe bring a casting hero, or Mystic Tome, specifically for this and try to score some points on the sly. Falls in line with the rest of the trickery we have to do to function as an army, anyway.

Also, the discussion moved here for 3.0 stuff

Which is great, potentially stealing one CP a hero phase. It can take reliance off of CBs like Warlord or Command Entourage. Still worth taking for the extra enhancement, but the once-per-battle CP can be saved until after Kurdoss flubs a steal roll.