Lurynsar

Honestly she’s been great. She has been picked out a few times which is sad, but it does make them focus her and put more into her than she’s worth. So I will likely continue to try her, especially with 10 Twinsouls. As to her and the Endless Spells it hasn’t been a problem. I summon it in turn 1, get my DPs and if they disbind it on their turn I just summon in a Keeper turn 2, and have them utilize it the following turns. Being able to summon in Wizards really allows me to find uses for the Endless Spell even after the Shardspeaker is done using it.

I’m really curious to see how you find Gluttos does. He’s so many points (probably a fair cost, we just lack so many models to start) and I worry he will be unable to make up for what we lose. So please do report back on what he does for you. Also in the same vein let me know about the Blissbarb Seekers, that’s certainly something I’m interested in trying. I really feel that reliable ranged DP generation will matter for us. You are a little “slow”, but you can summon cheap Seekers to make up for speed to get some fast objective grabbers if need be, but honestly once you start summoning in anything you’ll likely be taking the table in my experience anyways, so they might not be as needed as you feel. Lastly while Gluttos is a great wizard, and you’ll likely be summoning in Keepers to help with the casting; I’m not sure that two Endless Spells will be used as much once things get going, so I would consider dropping the Mirror if you can find something else to fit the list better with it, and the extra points and/or switching something out. But if you do stick with it I’m curious to see if it holds up and you find yourself using both often enough to justify their costs. That said the Wheels is amazing, and I doubt you’ll be sorry to have them in your list. It looks solid overall, and has a lot of similar elements to what I’m playing, so I think it’ll do you well. I’m really curious about Gluttos due to his cost; hopefully he really shows up for you and the cost isn’t the burden I fear. Let us know how some of your games go!

As pointed out I was wrong. Sorry!

The reason I am (or was) considering Blissbarb Seekers is because I do believe some ranged generation of DPs is important to combine with Wheels. Their mortals aren’t awful, and they shocking durable when I played them in second edition. They do seem like a lot of points, however I am committed to trying things before writing them off (except Slaangors), and as such I will slot them in for 10 games to see if those points are justified. I’ve found myself not as upset at many of the points changes; so I do need actual table time to get the answer of overcosted or not. That said they seem okay, even on paper for how I build and play my lists. However as I get more practice with Blissbarb Archers in general, I feel they’d likely remain the shooting element of my force and as such Blissbarb Seekers move down the list of things to try for now. As to the Dread Pagent, I have access to the whole line thankfully, but this unit is not one I have planned to use any time soon. They just don’t have a place in the way I play or make lists. They’re not tough enough to replace Painbringers, not killy enough to replace Twinsouls, not quick enough to replace the flanking units I have in Slickblades (or likely soon Hellstriders), and don’t offer the ranged options I like from Blissbarbs. They do seem playable on paper for sure, but until I find a place for them in my army they’ll likely remain on the back burner. Hopefully others who have a place for them start using them as we can see if they’re solid additional options to our roster.

See. I knew I was missing something. I literally played it as melee only all of Second. And for some reason my eyes glazed over that yesterday. Oh well. It’s a shame, but not the end of the world. Blissbarbs continue to confuse me, but I’m starting to get more use out of them. Thanks for pointing that out! Don’t know how I didn’t click it.

I don’t see a specific clause that you cannot duplicate Enchantments. In fact for Triumphs it specifically says “If you are allowed to take more than 1 triumph, you can pick the same triumph more than once if you wish”. This implies that you cannot duplicate others. However spells and prayers are also Enchantments and obviously you can take those multiple times to get more spells/blessings for you army. So rules as written as far as I can see, you could take the same Artefact on different, non Unique, Heroes by selecting the Artefacts of Power Enchantment more than once. You can take multiple Triumph, Spell Lores and Prayer Scripture Enchantments given their very nature and usage. You are limited however to 1 Command Trait as that’s spelled out in its rules. edited to add - Mount Traits aren’t listed with further detail other than being Enchantments, as such likely refer to the book for the Mount Traits being used to see if such limits exist. This could also be the same for Artefacts in the battletomes. Decided to crack open my Ogor book and immediately found this “The same HERO cannot have more than one mount trait, and an army may not include duplicates of the same mount trait.” Assuming it’s the same elsewhere then Mount Traits cannot be duplicated even when taking multiple Enchantments. I did not immediately find such a rule on Artefacts in the Ogor book. Perhaps Soulblight will give us the answer there as it’s meant for this edition that has no restrictions that I can find in the core rules.

Shooting isn’t a huge hurdle thus far, but does kill my Shardspeaker more than I like. She’s actually important to me, but dies easy to a swift breeze against any competent shooting list. As such I really dislike shooting more than it’s effecting me. For me first turn is all about control. Take the rear centre of the board and make them decide between taking a Twinsouls charge, or having to commit into me to hold me back. Basically I throw out a Wheels, stack some DP and then take the board away. Their options become limited. They either have to crash into my Battlelines to stop me taking their half of the board, and thus play into my plan where I can shoot them and flank their heroes with ease (Sigvald on the flanks, the Slickblades and usually a summoned Keeper do serious work if they get loose in the side/back of their army. The other choice is they give me space, likely get charged and I take even more of the board. I don’t want to say it’s an easy win, as that’s not true, but going first allows me to control the tempo against most lists (maybe less so against shooting heavy lists) which is exactly what I feel Slaanesh wants to do this edition to stay ahead. And as to the lists Dexcessa is 100% coming, and I’m curious about Synessa. She seems… awkward. But not terrible. I don’t foresee a list where I want both though. One 200+ Hero seems about the most I feel comfortable committing as the core of the list really does need some bodies to allow us to hold out until summoning kicks in. But we will see how future testing plays out. I could be totally wrong and someone else might unlock the key to “The” Slaanesh list.

Alright, for those of you following along at home (and I truly appreciate the feedback and the messages, I try to answer every question I am asked, so if I miss yours just give me a nudge. I am really trying to be part of this community going forward for the new edition rather than living in my own bubble) and who enjoy wordy posts I am back again after 2 more games which means more updates. I won't be rehashing the bad unless its now a confirmation or some such, but will be going over each unit I have used, and my feelings on them. For those who want a refresher, or who haven't seen it yet this is the list I am committing 10 games to, before I allow myself to make some changes (3 unit swaps max) as I really want to make sure I am not writing things off as too good, or too bad too quickly. So lets start with the Battalions. I am LOVING the new Core Battalions for us. While we had one okayish Warscroll Battalion, being able to manipulate almost any list into a Battle Regiment is huge. I honestly feel like I am going to try to maximize that being my only Battalion (and maybe my only drop) going forward. Going first for us is massive, and our costs actually mean we rarely want to have too many more drops anyways. So for me this is a must have. The next closest drop anyone has had was I believe 5 or 6 against me, and yeah going first is amazing. Now as for heroes I haven't really changed my opinion much here. Sigvald is still great, but he really needs a lot of attacks to generate enough value. Usually it isn't an issue, but when it is he does suck for what he costs, but that isn't new. He is a fine addition to any list, and the D3 outflanking units allow him to do some stupid stuff for Lurid Haze. Lord of Pain is fine. He isn't exciting, and his lack of speed compared to both Twinsouls and Slickblades in my list kinda makes me sad. Wholly within 12" with his speed makes my battleline less efficent for his Command Ability which is good. As such I haven't been using it as much where it would make a difference. I really wish he had a mounted version. That said his 5+ Ward is strong, and his reflection is amusing. He isn't something I love, but is required I feel due to cost, and to make use of the Lurid Haze options. The Shardspeaker is terrible, and I love her. I know, kind of weird, but hear me out. The cap to her save roll kinda sucks, but if the enemy is rocking a -1 Rend then a 4+ is still reasonable I guess. Usually they can only target her with range, and as such she either dies easy or doesn't at all. So really its a wash IMO. That said she makes the Twinsouls a beast. Sadly she is also slow, however not needing to have anyone wholly within a range helps. I have been using her basically as a Twinsoul. She sits in the unit/right behind and selects an enemy unit the Twinsouls want to eat as her prey. Using both the Twisted Mirror for the +1 to Wound rolls for the Twinsouls on the enemy unit, and then casting Reflection Eternal to make the Twinsouls harder to wound against the same unit is amazing. When both go off its just disgusting. Likely a little excessive, but its who we are. All in all I feel my hero choices are fine, if a little boring. The weakest and often "worse" is the Shardspeaker, but she is also my favourite and done serious work. Twinsouls. I hate the models (well just the heads, so I fixed them), and honestly didn't consider them in 2nd very often despite me knowing they were solid. That said WOW. I cannot stress this enough. Twinsouls are without a doubt, the MVP of every game I have played. I rarely lose more than half the unit, and they do work FAR above their point cost. I was hesitant of their price, like many people, and was even more grossed out planning to commit another 150 point Hero to babysit them. But they have been worth it. Let's go over the first thing. 2". It might not sound like much to some people, but 2 inches is a lot of power. I run them as 10, so they are subject to the new coherency rule. A lot of people dislike it or are worried about it (I am okay with it myself, but I can see the arguments) But let me just say that with 2" range on their melee weapons it is very rare they don't all attack. Combined with their own natural buffs (and the Shardspeaker) they are often -1 to be wounded, get +1 to wound the enemy target, have either a Ward save or reroll hits (both are really great) means they are blenders. Hordes? Elite Infantry? Heroes? Monsters? Cavalry? doesn't matter. They bring it down again and again. My only disappointment is a lack of Rend. 37 points a model and I can't even have -1 Rend? It is annoying at times, especially with how easy +1 to saves is. At least its capped, but still I want some Rend bad. But the 2 Damage, 8" move, 2" melee threat and the buffs I do have for them still make them an utter powerhouse for me every single game. Painbringers, oh how I love thee. I know they are boring. They don't do anything. They don't move fast. They don't kill anything ever. They are just so bland. But bland has a place; and that place is never dying. Like ever. Seriously. 160 Points for 5, has them able to survive thing worth twice their cost with ease. +1 Save is easy to get for us, and rerolling it is amazing. The enemy has to commit models with -2 Rend to reliably shift even a minimum unit of these guys and gals. And if they do that then we are winning trades. They don't get to do much, and their attacks are whatever, but they do not give up control of an area without a lot more commitment point wise than they cost (and I have 2 units of them which makes it even better IMO). These guy's may never be MVP because of output, but without them my battlelines may have shifted and I would have lost a lot of board control. I continue to be impressed by them every time. Slickblades... I did say I didn't want to dwell or rehash the negatives so let's just be clear. Sadly I do not believe these have a place in my list after 10 games. Each game continues to reaffirm that they aren't worth it. They have great speed, solid output, and are a ton of fun to use. But in a competitive sense (which I always gear towards regardless of the game) they are at least 30 points too much. They just don't feel good to play, and while the speed is important; I believe I can access that from either Blissbarb Seekers, or most likely Hellstriders. I love the models, and plan to paint up a full 20 still for my collection, but feel they will be pushed aside for the coming months at the very least unless I am VERY wrong about the meta and the new edition. Time will either prove me a fool, or vindicate these feelings. I do hope I am the fool. Blissbarb Archers are not as bad as I thought. I will admit; I was playing them wrong. I committed them alone to an objective or area and they died without support while doing very little. I have now been using them in the middle of my battlelines usually with the Painbringers on either flank, and the Twinsouls ahead of them. Did you know the Lord of Pains ability is not limited to melee attacks? I didn't. But when I learnt that these guys got a whole new lease on life. They are my rear line, but still in the centre of the board. Shooting, moving, Unleashing Hell if anyone commits to trying to remove my Painbringers? Yes to all please. I am very happy with them as of late, and found something for my Lord of Pain to do too. All in all, they may be a few points too many, but I am happy to pay their cost going forward. However they will likely never be more than 11 or even a second unit. The placement required of them in my experience is exact, and the abilities only support one smaller unit. They are solid, but not something I will likely add more of when my list updates. Wheels of Excruciation are AMAZING. Let me be clear, that I hated Endless Spells when they came out. Thought they were garbage and anyone playing them was bad. My tune has totally changed this edition. Moving them more just makes them actually good. That said I do believe you can likely switch the Wheels to something like a Pendulum if you need to save points. You'd lost 4" of movement, but the 2+ for at least 1 Mortal Wound is what's important. The Endless Spells are IMO how we generate a ton of Depravity this edition, and Wheels does it well, but there are other options if the 100 points is too steep for you (and I agree it is steep, but I don't mind paying it so far.) Speaking of Depravity, yeah its good. Like really good. Easy to gather, and wonderful to spend. There is no a reason a well crafted Hedonites list is not summoning a 12 cost in turns 2 and 3 every game, and likely turn 4 (dependent on how much of the game you've already won). I won't lie; I have not been experimenting with Summoning. Its a Keeper on turn 2, a Keeper or 30 Daemonettes on turn 3 (matchup/board state dependent) and 20+ Daemonettes on turn 4 every game. It isn't exciting, but it works very very well. Summoning might be too strong, which is sad because I feel like it'll keep our points higher than they should be for many units, and especially keep the daemonic parts of our codex with no play outside of the summoning. I will try out Fiends and Seekers at some point (maybe even some Heralds) I promise, but Daemonettes and Keepers are the mainstay of our Summoning backbone I feel. They just work. Every time. So for me I feel the list has a solid base, and I really am excited to do some swaps. Sigvald for Dexcessa? Slickblades for Hellstriders? Wheels for Pendelum? Those are my initial thoughts on changes if I were to change. What about you guys and gals? I know not everyone has the time to play like I do. Is there something you'd like me to try for my next list? A unit you really want me to summon in so I can see how it fits into the new edition? I am happy to try out some popular choices for sure. I will likely be crafting a new list for the next ten games before the weekend starts, so I am happy to take some suggestions for sure. As a community we can really work together to find the best (and worst) Hedonites has to offer, so let me know. Hopefully this has been an interesting read for you all. I will repeat my mantra of the new edition. The changes are A LOT bigger than they appear on paper, so try out as much as you can before writing something off (Except Slaangors) and see how it plays on the table differently than you thought it would on paper. It isn't all sunshine, but there are rays of it out there for us to grab hold of I assure you.

100%. Our summoning is very strong. It is without a doubt the most powerful aspect of our army, and it’s really hard to quantify on paper. Okay experience has shown me that 3rd edition summoning is way more powerful than in 2nd and I expect to find new ways to push it to be even stronger. That said in my experiences I’ve also found that Daemonettes, Keepers and Slickblades are likely overcosted. I’ll have to play more games with them to confirm it, but yeah. They aren’t worth the points so far (but summoning the ones we can is awesome, but doesn’t help the points). Blissbarbs are a mixed bag. They’re more expensive than they should be maybe, but the ability to generate depravity at range and combined with Unleash Hell in the battle lines is also very very potent. I’d be hesitant to touching their points until the meta really settled and we saw the effect they have. They were sorta meh to me, but I can easily see them being too good if we can spam them cheaply. So it’s a real conundrum there so far in my mind. The long and the short of it is we really need to make sure we are using summoning. So use archers and endless spells (seriously love them right now) to generate it early, and push hard in the middle of the board to keep the momentum and summon, summon and then summon some more.

I do believe it’s hard to say. I should point out that in all 3 test games I did win. So having “more” certainly wouldn’t have been a detriment. That said, I do believe I can offer some insight on the take away’s if we had old points. My Hero choices are largely no different. The handful of points do not make or break the list. So having old costs for them wouldn’t have changed anything. When it comes to units I believe that the Painbringers at 150 or 160 wouldn’t have mattered. They felt fine, and did exactly what I planned on them doing. The Twinsouls likely would have felt much better at 30 points less for the unit, however they were absolutely fantastic and while the price tag sucks for list building, the 2” melee range was worth the cost. I feel they’re a little too much, but they did work and were hard to shift. So I can’t say they’re overcosted, and might be “too good” at the older cost. However at 30 points less (60 overall) for the two units of Slickblades would have felt MUCH better. As I said the Blood Knights at 175 (or 195 either way) were just superior IMO. They did what I wanted my cavalry unit to do, they were pointed fairly and just overall seemed much better than Slickblades. They would have not felt OP at their older costs, and I truly believe they are overcosted right now. Blissbarb Archers weren’t bad, but also weren’t great. However that may be more how I played them, so further testing is 100% needed. That said though I feel they may have been much better (not sure they’d be too good though) at 180 they felt alright, and might be “too good” at 160. I feel a middle ground is a better place for them. The Unleash Hell has a lot of power behind it, and we could easily abuse it in a list if they were too cheap. The Endless Spell (Wheels) was useful, and helped generate a lot of depravity in the game, and would be totally under costed at its old price. The new rules for Endless Spells make them something the opponent has to try and remove, or can really help your game plan and ruin your opponents. This is something I feel they got 100% right. Spending 100 points feels bad for it, but felt totally fair after playing it several times. They truly are VERY different to use now. Summoning felt stupid powerful. Like game breaking powerful. However I’m not sure how much of that was accurate and how much was an inflated sense of points making me feel more powerful than it was. Summoning on average around 1500 points of models seems INSANE (averaged out 50 Daemonettes and 2 Keepers per game), but then again is it as insane as 1200 points? Maybe. It’s really hard to quantify. Daemonettes and Keepers did exactly what I needed them to, and were always a huge part of my victory, and it felt gross summoning more than 3/4s of my initial army in points into the game. But at the same time I would not have been happy I feel to spend 1500+ points on those models, so it’s certainly feels at this point that our summoning is amazing (MSU and what not going forward), but that shouldn’t be the reason they cost so many points. That’s backwards, and very confusing. So yeah summoning is super strong for us, but that’s because of the mechanic and not the points costs at all. The Daemonettes and Keepers are overpriced I feel based on my experiences so far. Great yes, but not 1500+ points great at all. That would not be a good army. As to what I felt I was missing? Honestly the list felt very well rounded and comfortable. I’m hoping to bang out the next 7 games before next weekend and will report back. I will say however I cannot consider Gluttos at 475. He was actually too good at 400, and is probably balanced at 475, but because everything else is so costly I don’t believe he’s a good investment overall. Likewise a lot of “support” pieces like the Contorted Epitome, and even Seekers would feel really solid in my lists, but I cannot find a place to cut them and to keep the efficiency we need to make sure summoning goes off. Even if I were to change out both units of Slickblades and the Blissbarbs I’d need to replace them with more combat oriented units that spread easy mortals or damage across the board. Like some mixture of Hellstriders and Blissbarb Seekers. Because summoning is so strong (and honestly the only thing that’s going to keep up remotely viable at this time IMO) we need the things to generate depravity, and while the “support” style units can do it; they give up too much of the battle line and the strengths we do have to be in the list at their costs. I want support pieces to be cheap, or at least cheaper. Even if that means toning them down somewhere. I just cannot justify support right now with points being so tight. Hopefully that gives a little insight into where my mind is at with the list and the faction. I have games against Orruks, Daughters, Lumineth and likely more Soulblight coming in the next few days. So hopefully I can give more context to what I'm seeing early, and as others get games in we can put our data together and see where we can shine, and what’s not just a knee-****** reaction from players, and needs something done about it.

The fact that it’s Razor-Sharp Claw(s) and not Claw means it’s the same profile whether they have 1 claw or 8. If the regular models just got 6 attacks each with their claws they wouldn’t be near as awful.

Actually looking at the Slaves Monster options a Fomoroid isn’t a bad choice, and fairly well priced. I may have to draft a list to include a couple. It would likely increase my current drops by maybe 1, depending on how it sorted out. But that could be worth it. I truly found Monstrous Rampages to be a big ability, so access to them on a decent body at a fair point cost might be big. It also sort of reinforces my thought that list building in 3rd is going to be very different. This is something I have never done, or considered, and it seems to be the same for most of the discussion I’ve seen here. I’m glad to see some awesome ideas and choices being thrown against the wall. They might now all stick, but the talk is certainly getting ideas going for me. Thanks everyone.

In my personal case that was never an option. I put away my Hedonites during the first book because I was bored of playing Daemons (I also have them for 40K) so my intention was always to play 100% (or close to) Mortals. So Keepers and Daemonettes and the like were always being relegated to summoning for me in 2nd edition too upon the books release. So for me it’s just taking my play style/list building to the new edition. As always your mileage may vary. I also didn’t use Chaos Warriors or Marauders as Battleline either, so again my lists are less “hurt” by this. My post was simply to show that I’ve been able to play some games and do alright. Obviously if you played different styles of lists you’ll have different experiences. But list adaptation is always a thing with new editions and books sadly, it’s been a rarity I’ve been able to keep a list between editions or new codices/battletomes in my 20 years of GW games. Hopefully everyone will be able to adapt as we go forward, as I believe the army has some legs. Don’t get me wrong it’s not all good, it’s just also not all bad. Edited in to reply Yeah its not all sunshine, but I have hope we can do something. Also good call on the Mutalith. I’ve always been such a faction “purist” to Slaanesh that I rarely look at Allies for them. I’ll have to see what Monster allies exist for us to try, because they are a lot of fun ruleswise. Thanks for the ideas.

So I have been fortunate to play 3 games with Sylvaneth. I will point out I am brand new to this faction with 3rd Edition. I had been slowly building them for fun, so my insight will not be in comparison to previous rules, but as a whole. I played Hedonites and Flesh-eaters in 2nd. With that said this is the list I decided to play So my opponents were a mix. I played Daughters of Khaine, Soulblight and Kharadron Overlords. My Daughters of Khaine opponent was a mostly snake lady list, with the usual backup, and Morathi. Soulblight was Vyrkos Vampires with 40 Skeletons, 40 Deadwalkers, 20 Grave Guard, 10 Wolves and Vampires/support. The Kharadron was two medium ships, 2 gunhaulers, some Thunderers and balloon boys. So the games were interesting for sure, and I learnt a lot. I won't lie playing as a new faction with new rules for a new edition I made some mistakes, and left myself in stupid places at times. So without further ado some of my initial good and bad thoughts. The good 1) Dryads are really cheap for what they do (maybe because I come mostly from Slaanesh). But wow, for their cost, the buffs that exist and 2" range in melee these guys are really solid. 20 was not hard to move or use at all, and felt super good all 3 games. 2) Treelords are amazing. I know they aren't wonderful to some people, but at only 190 points with the new Monster rules; I felt they were great. They were comfortable to use and I will have to try out the Spirit soon. 3) Spiteswarm was great, and Endless Spells as a whole feel good to play. I cannot wait to test out others as they feel really solid this edition. Spiteswarm specifically was really great at it's point cost. I cannot see a list without it unless you go magicless (wtf) 4) Drycha was a beast. While the rest of the heroes were fine, and had a role, she was amazing. I cannot see her not being played a ton. She does a bit of everything and with the new Hero/Monster buffs she really shines. 330 seems like a steal for her (again maybe compared to Slaanesh here) Now on the negatives 1) While I didn't test her in these games, how is Alarielle more points than Morathi? Morathi is amazing and really worked against me hard. I would kill to have a model at that cost that does that. Maybe I am wrong on Alarielle, but she seems lacklustre compared to Morathi. 2) Wyldwoods are stupid. While the 1-3 per is better than the 3-6, 1 seems usually useless. 2 can't actually seem to form a circle when built, and 3 is great, but hard to place after the first ones are down pregame. This could be inexperience, but they're really kinda clunky. 3) The heroes other than Drycha were just fine, and that's kinda boring. Looking at the options the Treelord Ancient looks like garbage compared to the Warsong, and the Warsong is really costly. He's solid I suppose, but costly. The others are just there. They do one thing and hope to survive. I really didn't like that GW didn't allow you to have the 40K Look Out Sir rule in AoS. It would be such an elegant solution to "weaker" characters being sniped out. A missed opportunity I feel. 4) Kurnoth Hunters are bad. Having to be either 3 man to use swords (which are way better than Scythes) or lose out on attacks, and costing 225 points per 3 was just...sad. I didn't enjoy using them. While they cut up what they charged, I just felt Dryads and the Tree Revenants were way more useful in each game. Long story short, I am excited to play Sylvaneth through 3rd, and plan to take them to several events be it tournaments or leagues to really get a feel for the army, and to document them. So more will likely follow. But I don't think the army is as trash as some people act, and there is certainly a lot more going on in 3rd to make any sweeping statements. The army was okay, and hopefully more playtesting and different units really help me find a good place for them. Time will tell, but I encourage you to play some games with the army and see how they feel. I know they've been bottom for awhile, but I do believe 3rd is a bigger shakeup than most people expect.

So I’ve been able to play 3 games as Hedonites so far with the new rules, and the new points (perks to owning a store. I play games all the time) My list is as follows I won’t do full battle reports, as I don’t have 100% of the details written down, but I’m planning to document my experiences and tournaments in 3rd so those may come. Just going to note the footnotes and what I learnt. My first game was against Soulblight using several Vampire Heroes in the Vyrkos Dynasty and then 40 Deadwalkers, 2x20 Skeletons, 10 Dire Wolves, 20 Grave Guard, a Corpse Cart and an endless spell. Second game was also against a Soulblight army but using the named Vampire on Dragon, another normal Vampire Lord on Dragon, 5 units of Blood Knights and a unit of Vargheists. Third game was against Kharadron Overlords. Using multiple ships, Thunderers, some ballon boys. The standard affair really. So initial thoughts that were positive 1) 10 Twinsouls is a lot of points, and even more when protecting/escorting a Shardspeaker. But they are disgusting. With 2” melee range I had no troubles bringing them to bear time and time again and they did WORK. Honestly they might be my MVPs in every game. They’re hard to kill, kill well and when sitting with a Shardspeaker just become amazing. However against more ranged savvy opponents the lack of protection for the Shardspeaker will suck. 2) Depravity Points are stupid powerful. Like really powerful. MSU is a thing and I was able to generate 12 points at least 3 times in each game to bring in some serious reinforcements. And while a Keeper is hands down an amazing choice, 30 Daemonettes helped out a ton too. I foresee those being my go to’s when summoning, and relying on 20 Daemonettes if I cannot reach 12. 3) Endless Spells are fun. Activating each Hero phase made them super useful, and a true aspect of the game. I will 100% be trying these more and the Wheels did a lot of work. So I was very happy with them. 4) Painbringers may be one of the best roadblocks in the game. They just wouldn’t die. They took shots, they took charges, they even took a Zombie Dragon to the face. They just don’t like dying at all. They’re not doing much (no shocker there). But to control an objective or area; they’re insanely solid. 5) Blissbarb Archers do indeed love Unleash Hell. Sitting in the mid backfield controlling an objective made the enemy have to come to them and it was pretty cool. Though to be honest they were the second weakest part of the list (see below). 6) My list (and I suspect Slaanesh as a whole) are amazing with the single drop Battalion. My entire list was 2 Drops (my Sylvaneth are 6 and use the same Battlaion) so I went first every game with ease. I like it, a lot. now onto the negatives. 1) I hate that heroes didn’t get the “40K” Look Out Sir rules. -1 is nothing for a good ranged unit/army to deal with especially with the caps. These make heroes like the Shardspeaker still easy to pick out. I don’t like it. It’s a shame as they have a fair, solid rule in their other flagship game and they didn’t use it. 2) Slickblades are way too many points. They did some work, they were even good at times. But playing against Blood Knights at 175 for 5 was just so polarizing. They’re everything I want and they’re cheaper. It’s just a true shame as the models are stunning. Unless playtests change my mind they’ll be replaced with Blissbarb Seekers or even Hellstriders going forward. I also feel Twinsouls were a little too costly, but they made up for it. I don’t think 160 for Painbringers was bad at all. They did what I wanted them to for a “fair” price. 3) A lack of generic or “cheap” monsters SUCK. While Zombie Dragons weren’t cheap the monster abilities were amazing. I’m also testing my Sylvaneth and Treelords at 190 with those rules are amazing. Our Monsters went up greatly in points, and even summoning them in doesn’t make up for it. We need a nice 200-250 point giant Slaangor or something to give us access to these lovely new rules and allow us to play them. We are losing out, they’re really good. 4) Relying on summoning for board control is good in theory, and bad in practice. While I’ve been able to take the board with 1 or 2 units of 20/30 Daemonettes; it’s going to be all to easy to be unable to do that on a crucial turn and fall flat quick. Board Control is a super important element, and we lack it. It sucks. All in all I think we are okay. I know the knee ****** reaction is we are trash tier, and bad. We aren’t. I don’t think we will be meta toppers, or anything. But get some games in and you’ll see it’s not all doom and gloom. That said some points costs are awful and utterly shameful, and honestly looking at other books Allegiance Subfactions, artefacts and Command Abilities makes me weep. We have so little in the way of options, and even less in the way of good options. I don’t see the point in going after extra Enchantments for the most part for us at all. Not worth the either high price for Heroes or the poor, cheaper choices. But that’s just me. As to what I’d change? My first thought is swap out Sigvald for Dexcessa with a change in Endless Spells for points. I think Sigvald is fine, good even. But I truly think Dexcessa is a beast with the new hero abilities. And I am excited to get her on the table (and likely regret not having Sigvald haha) and the other change would be as I said before, Slickblades for some mixture of Blissbarb Seekers and/or Hellstriders. Hellstriders seem solid at their points, and Blissbarb Seekers could give me a ranged element allowing me to drop the Blissbarb Archers (my second worst unit I felt) and maintain some shooting options. However I will need to test a combination of them all to see where I stand. So in my experience and opinion the sky isn’t falling, and we will be okay. We just need to hope for a future adjustment to a few units points wise (and a whole new Warscroll for those damned Slaangors) and maybe a Monster or two in a playable point cost and we really could be up there with the best. Time will tell, but I do implore you to try out some games.

Honestly if you’ve tried to talk to them and they blame you for being a bigot or attacking them or whatever else they use to push the blame off them stop playing them. Literally. When you finish a game in the evening just say no thanks I don’t want another. Waiting around and they show up and want a game? Say no thanks I’m waiting play X or I don’t feel like playing against you (or their army whatever works). In a tournament instantly concede. Offer them your hand when the pairings go up and say I don’t want to play you so I concede. You wont be forced to play games you don’t want to. Sure you might not win the tournament, but you’ll be making a point and won’t ruin the experience (unless all you care about is your standing) If this is an issue the group has and isn’t just you this will snowball. When they turn up and no one will play them they start to get the hint. They’ll still whine and blame everyone but themselves and their behaviour, but they’ll get the point. In a tournament let them win. Every round their opponents concede and then go watch other games and joke with others. It sounds harsh but isolate the parasite until they’re willing to take the blame and change. Sure they might relish in it and come to tournaments and talk up how people concede because they’re so good. Who cares? It’s a game. Your group knows the truth and will find they are happier and mentally healthier without the pariah. Eventually they’ll move on or change. Doesn’t matter either way as you’ll have them rectify the situation without having to stop your hobby. We had a player like this in a different game. They “won” all their league games and both of the next two tournaments. But they didn’t play a game against anyone in over 4 months. Sure they were winning, but they weren’t in the hobby or the community and sure enough they stopped coming. A couple years later they showed up with a new game and were different. They’d matured one way or another. Not sure if it was us who caused it or something else. But 3 years since then they’re still fairly regular and are a welcome member of our leagues and events and weekly games. We’ve had this person to group outings and home games and we just forget the past and move on.

Agreed. The Orcs that we have now are a fraction of what they could be. More Wyverns for Ironjawz, and perhaps other wild beasts they’ve got covered in chains and sent to fight for them. Bone constructs for the Bonesplitters? Yes please. I would love a bone monstrosity brought to life by Orc Shamans to rampage across their enemies. Raising walls of bones to protect their troops? Raining sharp bone fragments onto their enemies? Imagine the possibilities! This is exactly where I think GW should focus their efforts. Taking what works and cranking it to 11. Sure KO might be lacking, but visually they’re amazing and some of what really draws me to AoS. I want more of that and less “bring back the Empire” as to a human faction I would love it. I’m not sure any of the models around fit it, but I’d be willing to see some repurposed. I just want the eventual human faction to be so much more than Empire 2.0

And they are completely welcome to like those models. I am quite fond of my of Dwarves and some of my Empire (Great Swords especially). But in my opinion someone liking a nostalgic model doesn’t mean it’s fit for the game. I love giant mechs. Doesn’t mean they’d belong in AoS. Its not terrible to want a game to succeed. For a game to do well it needs vision. I’ve seen time and time again people complain about movies or video games where sequels or DLC changes the tone of the series or theme. This is a common criticism. If GW is serious about making AoS a mainstay it needs a theme and world to build on and since 2.0 it’s been doing that effectively. Throwing away the old that can’t be salvaged and combining the new and pushing it out My ****** or get off the pot is exactly though because they’ve strung them along so long. I do not believe GW intends to move forward with most of the armies that haven’t seen an update. I expect Gutbusters and Beastclaw Raiders to be reunited into some sort of Tribes of Maw book, but the rest do not fit the vision. We aren’t going to have Sylvaneth, Wanderers, High Elves, Dark Elves, Daughters of Khaine, Shadow Aelves, Light Aelves and Idonith Deepkin in the game. That is too many Aelven factions. They’re going to trim the fat. Sure a couple of the High Elves May be salvaged as some Dark Elves were for Daughters of Khaine, but in no world do we get 8 factions of different flavours of Aelf. They need brandable vision and a view that fits the world they are making. The Dispossessed are the same way. They’re remnants of a model line and vision that GW doesn’t seem interested in pushing. Duardin will go forward on the backs of an old theme (Slayers) with Fyreslayers and a new vision in Kharadron Overlords. They did it with Greenskins and they need to keep doing it. Take the unique stuff out and fleshed into something new. The old won’t be and shouldn’t be supported. Their themes though should and I believe GW is moving strongly in that way. Plus leave the models so players can convert. They can have their old with the new with any models they choose and I agree GW can stop killing off models too. Unless of course people believe GW is going to update another 9-10 books and push out more than 2 or 3 new factions before the game falls apart. 3 new factions (Beastclaw/Gutbusters, Light and Shadow Aelves) is already a lot and when you add the 9 or so books that need a proper balance and 2.0 update (and that doesn’t even include Slaves to Darkness and Wanderers that don’t even have books but are likely to get them too) you’ve got a year and a half to two years of releases, and by that time well it’ll have been 6 years since they’ve touched those old factions. They will be dead and GW just needs to put them out of their misery for their sake and the players

I think for me (as someone who wants to see the themes return maybe not the models) that I’d rather they and others be squatted than live in indefinite purgatory. While the models can and should be made available for those that wish them because why not (if it doesn’t cost GW anything really) they should not be apart of Age of Sigmar. Age of Sigmar is not WHFB and despite people clinging to the ideals of the old world they need to cut off those ties. While some models are interesting enough and “AoSy” enough (Sylvaneth, Daughters of Khaine, Ironjawz, Skavenish) many others aren’t. And truthfully killing those sets of rules are just better then everyone going “we got allegiance abilities so we will be getting a book anytime soon”. Its like 40K players and their index options. They’re not in the codex. They don’t receive balances and point changes. But players still cling to something that is in all honesty dead and gone. So I guess for me GW should ****** or get off the pot so to speak. Either bring them back with a patch and say they have intentions in the future, or drop them all together. This also doesn’t just go to TK and Bret’s. Empire, High Elves, Dark Elves, Dwarves, Greenskins all need to be taken out back and shot. Maybe some models and their themes can be salvaged and give us a new faction. But those older models just don’t fit. I want a free cities expansion, but I don’t want Empire 2.0. I want what KO were to Dwavres (just with good rules haha) Ogres, Wanderers (Maybe), and Slaves to Darkness (Maybe) all are ripe for the AoS realms. Ironically so are TK but I believe they need a model overhaul and some tweaks. But I’d much rather see unique Shadow and Light Aelves, a unique Free Peoples (human and Dwarves and maybe Elves), and more that GW is capable of then legacy models jammed into armies for the sole fact of people liking them. I loved WHFB and HATED AoS when it came out. Now a few years later I truly believe AoS is a wonderful game and I’m interested in the realms and characters and armies. But I want an AoS experience. Not WHFB. tldr: Id be okay with a redone TK as they fit the AoS theme to me 😛

I think honestly we need both back, but not as they were. Part of the reason they had to go was the literal impossible to trademark images. Let’s be honest the theme of the armies were cool, but the visuals were lacking and uninspired. Because of this I want to see both back with a unique take. For Tomb Kings they need to be a Death faction opposed to Nagash. Nagash cannot have a monopoly on Death and it’s boring that he does. Put these guys outside Shyish and create as others have said a construct faction. You can have elements of Egyptian appearance and go all out with constructs brought to life by the souls of those the leader is able to steal from Nagash. This sets up an arc where Nagash hates them for stealing souls and they use a form of Death magic to exist. It places them in Death without the typical oooo skeletons and undead vibes. Think of them like the Wraith constructs of the Craftworlds faction in 40K. Infantry and bigger all controlled by souls either locked in or put into magic crystals that fight. Brettonia was a terrible faction visually. It was just Knights from our own history with bad French names and lore. Now image a faction of Humans (or Human souls) who were left for dead in the old world and don’t worship Sigmar. Instead they push themselves to tear down everything Sigmar built because of what he did to them. Now imagine a suit of armour made of reflective glass that is cracked and chipped from battle. They don’t have a home to stop and resupply. They are on a quest. A quest to destroy Sigmar and his cities that he protects. From foot soldiers with broad swords or spear and shields armoured in glass to Knights with lance atop horses, Pegasus and more. To the commoners who have become disillusioned with the so called “protection” Sigmar offers throwing their masses at his forces. Here you have a Destruction faction unlike any we have before. Not just Orcs and Ogres bent on destroying things because they can but a faction of humans who truly have a quest in their destructive ideals. Those are unique ways for them to take the factions and make them fit into Age of Sigmar. You can use the themes of the armies (and in the Tomb Kings some of the older models) and have factions that fit into the GAs without being cliche and boring. More so they allow those old themes to come back into ways that are unique to the setting and they are set apart from members of their own GAs.