Battlefury

The only way to win via objectives is huge mass ob bodies. So we gotta use, what is the cheapest and rush for objectives. Staying there by bodies means to position in a way, that not the entire group can be wiped easily. We should go for the minimum number of models per unit and really run with all the groups to objectives. I forces the enemy to split their As to those groups. So they might stay there longer. But honestly, for only demon units I don't see it working a lot of times. But we gonna stay positive, so i can't just say, what would be on point. So I am gonna say: Try it out, you will for sure have success with spamming the cheapest units... .

That actually will serve some issues. Gonna look into that. Thanks for the quote there

But how are we gonna hold these? Just planting BWs there and see them getting shot, magic'd or straight up slain in melee? That's a concern i have. How are we getting there, if the enemy is more viable to come to us, than we are? Talking about objectives that score significantly more points on the enemy territory. How do you make it? I understood, that you chaff units pretty well. Are you going through the gaps with hounds? Are you maybe playing like "gotta hold the objectives 3 turns, then I am just gonna out point the other player"? I can understand each single concern @Ravinsildhas. It is the combination of actual warscrolls and the possibilities of strategies ( contains movement, buffs, shooting and melee aspects ) that feel very restricted. Would anyone volunteer to test the army against these lists?: Leaders Lord-Arcanum (180) - General Knight-Heraldor (100) Lord-Ordinator (140) Lord-Castellant (100) Units 10 x Sequitors (240) - Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces 5 x Sequitors (120) - Tempest Blades and Soulshields- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces 5 x Sequitors (120) - Tempest Blades and Soulshields- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces 6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600) - 4x Grandstaves War Machines Celestar Ballista (100) Celestar Ballista (100) Celestar Ballista (100) Endless Spells Everblaze Comet (100) Total: 2000 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 0 / 400 LEADERS Verminlord Warpseer (260) Plague Priest on Plague Furnace (180) General Verminlord Corruptor (260) w/ sword of judgement Grey Seer (120) Lord of Blights (140) UNITS 20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Spear 20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Spear 20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Spear 40 x Plague Monks (240) - Foetid Blades- Icon of Pestilence - Doom Gongs 40 x Plague Monks (240) - Foetid Blades- Icon of Pestilence - Doom Gongs BATTALIONS Congregation of Filth (160) ENDLESS SPELLS Vermintide (40) Allegiance: Skaventide That's stuff to actually face. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. And please don't just say "we just can't, maybe we should concider facing other lists", because if that would be the case, we actually pointed out the consistency problem with this army atm. I am really looking for tips.

"Larger rats would invariably beat smaller rats most of the time, given their ‘pinning’ game was very body weight dependent. But when larger rats would not let smaller rats win once in a while (Panksepp estimated around 30% of the time), the smaller rats would stop playing with them. They no longer wanted to play when it was impossible for them to win, they were fine with losing most of the time, as long as there was a chance they could win." original experiments by Dr Jaak Panksepp The most important point is, to actually have consistent chances to win. Now imagine, in a game like that. #competetive No competetive player would let you win, just because you play a specified army. So here we are at the core of the issue. The chances to actually win within competetive environment is not consitently given within this book design. For just playing anyway it is ok. That's not trolling. Those thoughs of me, Ravinsild, Killax, Sleboda and all the other "complainers" comes from their experience That experience might not be yours, but it is still viable anyway.

Technically they have to take responsibility for their product, what they don't do. Otherwise it is like the DayZ effect. Selling beta stuff over and over again is sometimes concidered cashgrab, or even scam.

Using Beasts of Chaos was a thing I did concider too. But a few sides before someone stated, that they can not be used in the Blades of Khorne allegiance, although they would gain the KHORNE keyword. Is that right? @ChaosUndivided I suggest we get your point. At least, that's what I did. You're happy with the book, and thats actually a good thing! You should maybe concider, that each region got its own meta, really. And apparently the army still is not viable for competetive games in generel. Maybe in your location, so you can be happy about that! No need to get in defensive mode, noone wants to insult you personally. A thing about your quote. He is right, basically. But we have to concider the different mindsets, that lead to our characters. Let us talk about my mindset there. In generell, I am pretty diplomatic, freindly and I do not expect miracles to happen. But when I really put a lot of effort into something, then it would have to pay out at least a conciderable number of times. If that's not happening, and trust me there, people will become cynical. That's where the human mind is irrational. But it is something, we can understand. What to fight for, if nothing pays out, ever? It's the same thing here. Although it is just a game, we want to achieve something. I have played a lot of games and tournaments with Khorne. I managed to gain 1st place a single time. In free games I had a win rate of average 20%. When i started another army, that changed. I have played the very first tournament with that army and won all 3 games. I have defeated our local matadore. There I noticed, it really comes down to the tools, that are given to you, me and other people. So, if we want to achive something, and we put effort in it, but our tools are just not correct, we can not achieve a victory. And that would be a victory for us, meaning for our personality. It is important to gain benefit, from what we do. But for some people this army ( and the game is reflecting more than just the actual game here ) is a task, where our tools are not correct. What we don't like is, that we have to race muscle cars with a tricycle. And it has been the same with the old book. Now, with hte new one, that tricycle got new wheels, so it actually runs better. But how is the overall chance, to really be victorious? That's the issue. Noone offends other players, because they concider the book good. The designer himself is to blame, and the inconsitency of the company. And we just write, what we feel, because otherwise, we can not communicate our anger and frustration to anywhere.

I can kind of understand the point, that we shall not compare. But at the same time that point is a little 'iffy. We have to actually compare. It's the same like in sports. Let us take Soccer als an example. Group A vs Group B. Group A is concidered to be the winner, because they performed better than Group B and Group F. They where eye to eye with Group D, but definetly better than group P. But maybe they're not as good as Group C maybe. We have to compare. otherwise we wouldn't get better at the game, tbh. Let us compare another couple: Blood Warriors vs Bestigors. People might claim, that Bestigors are ridiculously point efficient. And they're right. So are Sequitors. So why not Khorne units? Bestigors do have kind of the same base stats. 120 points for 10 100 points for 5 Blood Warriors 10 wounds, 4+ save, 4+ hit, 3+ wound ( or the other way around for BWs, but the % stays the same ). The BGs can run and charge. They gain +1A, when charged. They gain +1 to hit, when enemy is 10 or more. BWs pile in again, when slain. Can have rerolls of 1er hits, or 1MW per 6er save. Concidering the purpose of those units. Bestigors are made to go in and smash stuff. Blood Warriors? Ain't they designed to get in and stay there? Shouldn't they then be much more resistant? And even IF several units are just ridiculously price efficient atm, shouldn't that have been adressed in the Khorne book, as it was designed? Due to point cost, or warscrolls?

I did and I do win actual tournaments. But just not with this army. Archaic threatening gesture. We shall not communicate on that level, shall we? Of course this forum is anonymous. I do just say, what my experience goes to. And apparently, several other players do see the same issues with the army right now. @ChaosUndivided Do you actually play competetively? I won't judge you on that anyway. But please concider, that there is a big difference between open / free games and a competetive environment. My concerns normally go down to competetive games. As I told, i do play tournaments. When it comes to free games, the army is pretty ok. Not pretty good, but okeyish. Whenever I will post my concerns, I am gonna use the #competetive to clarify, what I am talking about.

" Smashing their way through the maelstrom of battle, Blood Warriors roar incoherent curses as they hack and bludgeon their foes to ruin, the air around them shimmering with the rising heat of their fury. Such is their dedication to Khorne that they continue to chop and hew even after suffering wounds that would fell lesser men " Just.No. There where times in the old book, where I didn't even bother taking them. Reavers seemed to be just better, when buffed. Cheap. Rend weapons. Output of numerous A if needed. What to actually do now? Really: Take Juggerlord and Skullcrushers as battleline. And learn to pray to what god ever, that those sitting ducks don't get caught in melee for more than 1 turn.

As we are at the point of comparing. Does anyone have a look at the Fyreslayer abilities? I don't want to copy & paste all of that stuff here, but please take a look at these, and really read through it: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/04/08/battletome-fyreslayers-the-big-changes/ Here we go again, that army seems to be just straight out better designed. Why do i think that? Concider our "copy and paste" add 1 to hit rolls in our book as an example.

When you just don't win, that's not fun. Why does the conversation shift in that direction is easy. Because the designer sh*t about us again. Like before. It is indeed important to compare, to see the actual motivation of the entire army design. Khorne has been under 50% win rate, and that's already very bad. It should be AT LEAST 50% for any army in the game. Really? That would mean: Just never play on events. And concider bashing noobs. That's no fun either.

@AresX8How did you use Murderlust (Option #3) and Apoplectic Frenzy (Option #4) "a lot"? How many times did you get up to those BT point values?

I really doubt it

Is there any possibility, to actually let GW know, that people might feel kind of scammed / dissapointed / frustrated / angry? Other than just redesigning the army within the community itself, would you think there is an actual opportunity, that GW might revisit it again within given circumstances? Honestly I think they won't because they normally ship out stuff and just let it be. But maybe anyone knows how to actually put pressure to the company. I feel that frustrated right now, i can't really tell. Just getting clubbed over and over again is not funny. And even when I play well, i do not win due to the objectives. Old story, really.

What I am a little "pissed" about is the fact, that the Battletomes are designed, just as the books for Black library are desgined, as it seems. Someone has a great Idea for a story, so he writs a book like we know from Horus Heresy, and all the other book series for Warhammer out there. That's exactly on point. Why couldn't GW just create one group, that designs all the books? Of course some of them would be more passioned about several armies, but at least they would have to work out books, that are on sight with each other. Maybe I am misinformed about that, but how can a company just dish out their own rules like this? Normally, those who are not happy, with what came up, should show GW, what they did wrong. Shouldn't we? https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Robin_Cruddace

#competetive play So apparently Skull Canons are kind of not worth it, again. Just as in the old book. That one shot with it's random damage makes it pretty unreliable. Wrathmongers are kind of uninteresting. For their 140 points it's not really worth to have that +1A. They are just not really that good in melee, tbh. That MW output, when they get killed, is also a little unreliable. So the overall Wrathmonger "package" just doesn't really give it to me anymore. My list of favorit units would look like this: Blood Warriors ( but only, because thei're better than Reavers ) Skullreapers Skullcrushers Bloodletters Flesh Hounds Bloodstoker Skarr Bloodwrath Exalted DB Slaughterpriest Seems, like Bloodthirsters can just be bracketed, or even be killed much too easy. That random damage value can turn them ( and already did ) in expensive units, that don't deal that much damage, to even justify their point value. Atm BoK feels a bt like a total "Beer and Bretzel" army, imo. Too random, too restricted. #free games The army can be fun, if we want to actually tell funny stories. But that's really all I can say about that, as I am more into the competetive games.

That's actually a good approach with the buckler. Should be ok, also for tournaments though.

Give them wooden bicklers from any other unit maybe. Gors and Ungors do have some of them, too. So that could also look cool.

@BjornasIt really depends on the mindset of your local player community. Here, where I play it is: what you see, is what you get! Meaning, that it would have to be a buckler. If the players are more liberal, you could possibly go wth the other option. Are you playing free games only? Then you should be fine with any option. You can also do this: The number of equipment determins the equipment of any unit. So if 6 out of 10 have a buckerl the rest will have too. At least thats an exaptable approach.

Did we ever talk about Beasts of Chaos Khorne marked with the Brass Despoilers Battalion? They would gain the Khorne mark, so they could be allied easily. The point cost for that battalion would be a thing to concider: 1 to 4 heroes in any combination from the following: Beastlord 90 pts Doombull 120 pts 3 to 8 units in any combination: Bestigors 120 pts Bullgors 160 pts Gors 80 pts 0 to 8 units in any combination from the following: Centigors 80 pts Dragon Ogros 140 pts Tuskgor Chariot 60 pts 0 to 2 Cygor or Ghorgons in any combination 180 pts /200 pts What they get is: "You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made by units from this battalion while they are wholly within 9" of another unit from the same battalion. In addition, once per battle, in your hero phase, you can choose to unleash this battalion’s bestial rage. If you do so, until your next hero phase you can re-roll failed wound rolls for attacks made by units from this battalion while they are wholly within 9" of another unit from the same battalion Followers of the Brass Bull: Units from this battalion gain the KHORNE keyword." Point Cost for the Battalion: 190 For the ridiculous point effective Bestigors, I'd suggest this is really a thing to concider! They can run and charge in the same turn. Playing within the Khorne Alliance will not make them ambush units, but tbh, that's ok too. Take Reapers of Vengance and roflstomp with the Bestigors, clean up the more valuable targets with the Skullreapers. Basically, only a few units do have the "demon" keyword, so it could be a great addition to our Khorne non demon armies. Gives us Monsters, that do great deals for their points, having shooting ( Cygor), banning 2 spells ( Cygor ) dealing MW to wizards, when spells got banished ( Cygor ). The Ghorgon just instantly vanished a single model within 1", when he fought. Rolling a dice equal or better to the wounds characteristic of that model is fun. Taking Reapers of Vengeance to do that twice can be pretty rofl stompy. If I interpret it correct.

Did you see the previous preview of Fyreslayer Battletome? I would like to ask a question, that is really on my mind, now as I saw the Battletome review. Please note, that my question is not meant to be offending, harsh, unnessecary negative or as a rant, but: Is Khorne designed to loose? Might it be, because they're concidered the "evil opponent of shiny golden boys", that they're actually designed that way? #nooffend

I'd like to agree, that the book itself is pretty ok. My perspective comes from the competetive point of view. For free play and narrative games the book offers a lot of good possibilities I guess. That's not what I am playing, but I get, that people will enjoy it, and thats absolutely nice! I would like to point out, that Skaven made it to 2nd place at Adepticon. Those placements should not be an accurate measurement, because it always depends on the list we gonna face. But it was interesting to see, that Skaven went from barely playable to competetively relevant with the new book. So did the FEC, as the Best list in their alliance. So those books where particularly good designed, if people would like to play competetive games. In Chaos, and that might only my opinion, Khorne will not be that good. There will for sure be people, that get good results, that's good! But in the long term it will become a little redundant, just as the old book did. Why is that? @Xaszpointed it out pretty good. The issues are, that there are just too many inconsitencies, that will be an issue within competetive environment. Battalions are mostly not that good to use, in terms of what they offer. Or what they offer is not that big of a deal, tbh. A lot of units are not reliable, such as Wrathmongers and the cannons. As we pointed out, Reavers are kind of useless. Blood Warriors might be good, but they're always few to chaff units or camp objectives. Therefore they're ok. Biggest issue, imo are just some points, that maybe not everyone can comprehend. The army is toooooo restricted in the one thing it really needed, and that's movement. Run & Charge one unit at a time is ok, but not enough to bring the deals. Buffs can not reliantly come up to units needed. I especially mean the Priests. Within lists, that will use judgements, they will stay at the altar. The more the army moves away within the game, the less buffs will be available. Random Damage is a dealbreaker, imo. Bloodthirsters are cool beasticks, but unreliable due to that D6 damage characteristic. As long as people like to play the army normally, for having a nice game with friends, it is absolutely ok! A Thirster engaging twice and just dealing one damage each time he hit the enemy will be amssively fun in those games, that's for sure. But it will not in tournaments. That's what @Xaszmeant, when he saied: The consistency is, what makes an army competetive. We could argue, that GW maybe hasn't't intend the Battletomes to be for tournaments. But they support Adepticon & other grant tournaments themselves. Actually I see just a little few combos, that are playable in the manner to actually grant a victory. Whether to use judgements...I am not sure. They're just random damage value again. To roll after each round to see if those stay is another random factor. But maybe, even us competetive "freaks" can find ways in the book So alao, when I appear to be a pretty arging character, I don't want to further discourgae anyone, or offend anyone. When I ramble, I am pretty mich just offending GW for poor business practice

Speaking for me, I don't to discourage anyone to actually play the style they wish to. I have tested it in competetive environment playing against payers with their tournament lists. That's where my impression comes from Combos with Marauder Horsemen, Chaos Lord on Manticore, etc might be powerfull, but the book itself should be designed in a way, that it can provide viable lists on its own. And imo it fails there in some ways. The minority of the battalions is really good, 2 of the Slaughterhosts are neat. But it lacks of actual potential to have units, that can withstand, or even deal damage to the enemy, exept for some really few units, tbh. If we now say, we shall always buff the units needed, it will cause a dilemma: Only one or really few units can have buffs and therefore perform very good. When buffed, the're good, no doubt. Otherwise the other units are not buffed then, and will crumble. Also we have to always use a lot of heros to have our army buffed. Than will take points, that could have been used for more units. I don't really see a chance beside Tyrants to have lists with very few heros, such as different other armies can easily create.

I agree with you 100%. The thing is, that beside Tyrants of Blood, wich is a one hit wonder list, there is barely anything that will be viable for tournaments. I am absolutely into tournaments, that's how I do the hobby entirely. does anyone maybe have an idea for viable lists beside Tyrants? I am afraid, that even that list might be not competetive anymore, as soon as the enemy knows, what that list does. And since it is pretty much the same in its core each time, it would be easy of other players to just figure out how to deal with it.

Thank you for your ideas. It seems a little, that the Blood boils down to Tyrants of Blood. @Killax What I basically own is massively reliant on non demonic units. For several games I had to lend units. I have already noticed, that my mortal units are lack lusters, so I would have to buy demons I guess. Buggs me kind of...tbh. The 3 Thirsters went straight up shred to pieced by deepstriking Ballistas on2 edges of the map and Evocators coming in. Sequitors came from the front, but I didn't go for those. The Ballistas would be my target for some cheap units like Reavers, at least that was the plan in one of the games. I incrased the "chaffiness" by using Blood Warriors to lock the Ballistas in place, but that spread shot is a party pooper. Rend 2, wtf?!? After they came in, my Thirster where kind of in the middle of the map, as I had begun the game. They couldn't come up with the 10" move and then charge the Evocators. Distance was like 20" at that moment. So he then shot my thirsters, charged them with Evocators and Sequitors. Although I didn't bubble my units up, he just had enough power to wipe like 50% of my units including 2 Thirsters. Those Sequitor Hammers with Rend 1 and 2 Damage are just totally cheese. And then they reroll their hits, because fuc* you, that's why...we can load our weapons. The lack of real damage made it kind of impossible to straight up take somewhat out, even when buffed properly. I made a lot of A, but he just saves it... . Stormcast games are a competition called "how many 3s can you roll?". Thats absolutely broing. @KazAgreed! Reavers where just...elt's just not talk about them. I did buff the Warriors though, but Rend 2 by ballistas in even then not funny. The Sequitors just batter with so much 2 DMG weapons... . The buff did kind of help to hold them in melee for 3 turn in the optimal way. The problem was then, that the Damagedealers, the Thirsters where already done or hit, that they didn't make that much damage, because of the table stats. I have to admit, that the random damage with the Thirsters really sucks. It is not reliable enough. The MW output of the IR is pretty neat, but relys on a 16% to have 6s to roll. And when he was krippled within the table stats, it wasn't really that good anymore. They did damage, but most of the time where wounded already with like 6 to 9 wounds, as they appeared in battle. Don't know why, but Blood Letters didn't bother him too. Flesh Hounds where no match due to those "reroll just anything you like" buffs they have. @ImpaYou're exactly right. The army is absolutely still reliant of the "Khorne wonderland" mechanic, where everything has to work completely like a clockwerk. If some buffs won't be applied...thats ******. Buffs and even more buffs lead to a little oddity, that I noticed. The enemy can easily choose whom to target and literally turn the army to uselessness within 2 turns. That doesn't only happen against SE. The judgements are good, but also unreliable. The casting value of the Axe is little tricky sometimes, and the Random damage really handycaps it imo. The rolling, if the judement will stay is a little random too. Don't know if I really like it, but I would not rely on those judgements. The aftermath of the judgements is, that if I take them, I would need the altar, letting the Priests reroll. That's ok, but makes the army static, as they have to stay wholly within 8" of that. Can't get buffs done with them then. That's a choise I don't want to make, tbh. And now the interesting part. At the local tournamt at saturday, I played my BoC army. It was reliantly planned on a simple strategy, that totally worked! I have won the tournament and I have beaten that cheesy Stormcast list! I was thinking, why I could manage to do that there, but now with Khorne. The only conclusion I have is, it is the overall army design. BoC really looks great made in comparison. But I want to be good with Khorne too!