[AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion]

@Marucho So far my Khorne army has performed well locally however both of my opponents needed more practice with their armies. Obviously we lack magic as we have no wizards (outside of Archaon if you count him) and have no way of controlling or dispelling endless spells once they are cast. We don't lack summoning, its just that it is done at the expense of our allegiance abilities, takes several turns to earn enough blood tithe to summon anything meaningful, and the restriction on where and when you summon (i.e. at the end of movement so no hero phase buffs, wholly within 12" of a hero and more than 9" from the enemy) makes it difficult for our summoning to be effective. However if you can successfully shut down your opponent's magic phase, which Khorne is more than capable of doing most of the time, you should win most fights.

[AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion]

You outnumber them 5 to 1 so swarm them with bodies. Use your speed to get to the objectives before them and make life difficult by forcing them to plow through unit after unit of chaff before they can get to you. A few Bray Shamans with some mortal wound causing endless spells wouldn't go astray.

[AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion]

For anyone interested, here is the link to my latest battle report for a 2000 point game against Tzeentch, my first in AOS2.

There were no endless spells but we both summoned units with mixed results.

Enjoy!

 

[AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion]

Well I guess the idea is for you to see how the chaos knights were used in that game to help you gauge if you want to try them out. There is way more to them then a 5+ mortal wound save. They respond very well to the many buffs available in khorne armies and I certainly prefer them over our juggernaut riding options.

[AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion]

@Oldshrimpeyes @Ravinsild @tamthethird 

That was me :-)

Here is the link to the battle report; 

In AOS2 the flesh hounds are battle line so I wouldnt have to split the blood warriors into 2 units of 5 however with point adjustments the list would need further tweaking.

I played another game against Tzeentch on the wknd and am about to put together another battle report however didn't use Knights this time. 

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion]

Good luck with it!

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion]

It certainly would look great on the table, however the Aspiring deathbringer is probably a waste here because he wont keep up with the cavalry for his ability to do anything.  Also an all cavalry list without a Bloodstoker just feels wrong so I would swap him in.

I never use him however the mighty lord of khorne's command trait would be pretty valuable here  considering how crucial it is for all of those units to charge. 

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion]

@Ravinsild Something like this would be fun (add command traits, artifacts and prayers to suit);

Allegiance: Khorne
Chaos Lord On Daemonic Mount (140)
- General
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
Bloodsecrator (140)
Bloodstoker (80)
Slaughterpriest (100)
Slaughterpriest (100)
Slaughterpriest (100)
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxes
- 1x Goreglaives
20 x Bloodreavers (140)
- Reaver Blades
10 x Chaos Knights (320)
- Chaos Glaives
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
10 x Chaos Knights (320)
- Chaos Glaives
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
1 x Chaos Warshrine (160)
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Blood Blessing: None
Gore Pilgrims (200)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion]

@Ravinsild Chaos Knights are great in a Khorne list and I run them often. They love the buffs from bloodsecrator, Bloodstoker and Killing Frenzy prayers. Take the glaives, buff em up, charge in and watch them destroy things. The 5+ mortal wound save is very welcome in the new magic meta as well. If you can fit him in, a chaos lord on daemonic mount with mark of khorne is another great buffer for the knights. I like to run two units with glaives, buff one up and charge it in, next turn retreat and send in the other buffed up unit. Reason being their damage output drops dramatically after the charge.

Chaos warriors are not bad choice for objective camping and make good bodyguards for the bloodsecrator however in gore pilgrims you have to take a unit of blood warriors anyway and its hard to justify a unit of each when there are so many other good choices. 

[AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion]

My mistake. Move along, nothing to see here...

[AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion]

Very interesting concept for 1000 points. In theory you should have quite a few blood tithe by turn 2.  Do you have the full range of daemons available to summon? Remember that summoned units must be wholly within 12" of a khorne hero so think carefully about your placement of the deathbringer and slaughter priests as they move up field. I would spread them out as they move up to give yourself options for placing summoned units.

Also I believe you cant take Garrek's Reavers without also taking Riptooth as well, making it 120 points in total, although they are still separate units. Havent done the math on your list so dont know if you have allowed for theextra 40 points.

[AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion]

Sad panda

Seems ridiculous that he can't buff the flesh hounds for their reroll to unbind but still takes up a hero slot. Somewhat symbolic of GW's treatment of Khorne recently perhaps?

What about scenarios where only heroes can take objectives? I suppose he doesn't count for that either...

[AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion]

@Mikeboll Thanks for the battle reports and sharing your list. I was doing some list crafting around Gorepilgrims and came up with something very similar although I only own the one Korgorath which leaves me with 100 points that I am still unsure what to do with.

I always feel dirty not taking a Bloodstoker so totally agree with your comments on him. Its a shame because it would be nice to fit an Aspiring Deathbringer in but I think you need all 3 priests so theres just no room. Im taking the same prayers although heavily considering swapping one killing frenzy for a blood sacrifice to boost the blood tithe. Did you feel you had enough tithe in your games?

I note you didnt take any additional command points. Given you get 1 from the battalion, did you find that was enough? Would it be overkill for me to spend my last 100 points on 2 x command points, giving 3 with the battalion?

Alternatives would be 5 x blood warriors/chaos warriors, bump the reavers up to 20 or 5 x flesh hounds (which is probably my preference). I suppose I could take Karanak (from what I can tell he doesnt take up a hero slot) and just summon 5 x hounds for free but I dont have his model as yet. 

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion]

Infernal Slayer is right... as a slaves to darkness artifact you are limited by your allies pool as far as buffs from other heroes go. You couldnt even buff him with your other Slaves Heroes as the allegiance ability doesn't work for other heroes, only units. Maybe someone with knowledge of all four god factions might be able to theory craft a list with cheap allied heroes to buff a Daemon Prince with the Mark of the All Favoured but I dont know if it would be a viable tactic.

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion]

Its not pointless. With all four marks the Hero can benefit from multiple god buffs at the same time. E.g. you could buff a daemon prince with bloodsecrator for +1 Attack, another +1 Attack from the Glottkin, allow him to pile in and attack twice via a Keeper of Secrets, etc 

Granted that would be a wacky chaos grand alliance list but the possibility is there. 

[AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion]

42 minutes ago, NemoVonUtopia said:

 Also with more aura abilities being wholly within we can possibly stop them from triggering.

Great point! The "within" vs "wholly within" is a subtle change but if you're aware of it you can take advantage and remove some key buffs.

[AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion]

I wouldn't say Khorne is having issues in AOS2 as few of us have played many/any games yet, however based on what we know so far...

Gorepilgrims has got to be the main battalion. 4+ to cast prayers is just too unreliable so that reroll is gold and obviously extending the banner range is invaluable. The Battalion and the Bloodsecrator increased 20 points each however since the battalion also grants a command point, worth 50 points, I think we can live with this. 

As I see it our allegiance ability is thematic and has loads of potential however is being poorly executed by GW. We already know from AOS1 that generating substantial blood tithe points isnt easy, often requiring a list specifically written for generating it which comes at the expense of melee power such as priests with Blood Sacrifice instead of Killing Frenzy or small units of Blood Reavers taken for no other purpose than to die. Straight away this takes us away from the essence of Khorne, a blood thirsty melee army. I acknowledge that Blood Letters being called to the battlefield via the sheer amounts of carnage is thematic but it shouldnt come at the expense of that carnage. We shouldnt have to choose between being a melee army or a summoning army. 

Although in principal summoning is great, at low tithe levels it is weak (5 Blood Letters aint gonna do much) and units arrive in the movement phase so no buffs to hit, charge, etc which most Khorne units need to be truly effective. Certainly you could save up tithe so you can summon 20 Blood Letters or a Blood Thirster but that will take you 3-4 turns, meaning the allegiance ability has provided zero benefit to the army for 2-3 turns of the game. Plus if the summoned units dont make the charge on the turn they arrive and aren't marking an objective thats another turn with essentially no benefit from the allegiance ability. 

As another kick in the guts, our summoning is at the expense of the regular blood tithe abilities which is not the case for other summoning armies who can summon while still benefiting from their allegiance abilities (Tzeentch's fate dice being unaffected by their summoning as one example, Slaanesh Host rules unaffected by Depravity Points being another). Again we are forced to choose between the tithe abilities which can be incredibly effective and game clinching, or the summoning, which has the potential to be critical to success however also pretty useless if charges are failed and units are too small to survive getting charged next turn. But why is this so? Why do we have to choose when other summoning armies get the best of both?

Finally, once an endless spell is successfully cast, only a Wizard can use it or dispel it, forcing us to take an un-thematic wizard in our list taking up a valuable hero slot (and no doubt incurring Khorne's wraith) or basically hoping our unbinding is enough to stop endless spells in the first place. No doubt we have a ton of unbinding options however only a few of those options get a bonus to the roll, many casting armies will use the spell portal to stay out of the 30" range anyway and anyone who has attempted to unbind against Tzeentch (fate dice + casting bonuses) or Nagash (+5 to cast) will know this isn't the best of strategies to rely on... 

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion]

Clearly the intention is that you choose a mark at the start of each turn and he then benefits from whatever buffs/abilities affect that mark. You do not get all four marks at once like Archaon and you do not gain the bonuses from the individual god marks that a dedicated Lord receives. 

[AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion]

Thanks for the tips @Lakides!

Will certainly consider dropping the 2nd Beastlord and 3rd Shaman for some Ungor to screen.

Also thinking I might give the Beastlord the bray blast trumpet instead of the axe and have him ambush with the chariots and one or both Raider units.

[AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion]

Thoughts on this list???

90 points left over = 1 command point and 40 points worth of endless spells

Allegiance: Brayherd

Leaders
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- General
- Trait: Scion of the Dark Gods 
Great Bray Shaman (100)

Great Bray Shaman (100)
Beastlord (90)
- Man-render Great Axe
- Artefact: Herdstone Axe 
Beastlord (90)
- Man-render Great Axe

Battleline
30 x Bestigors (300)
20 x Ungor Raiders (160)
20 x Ungor Raiders (160)
30 x Gors (210)
- Gor-Blades & Beastshields

Units
4 x Tuskgor Chariots (240)

Behemoths
Cygor (180)
- Allies
Cygor (180)
- Allies

Total: 1910 / 2000
Allies: 360 / 400

[AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion]

Any rumours on changes to the allegiance ability or points?

[AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion]

Also didnt realise Karank is not a hero. Thats great for freeing a hero slot but also means nearby flesh hounds dont get an unbind reroll from him (needs to be a daemon hero). And if anyone has faced a magic focused Tzeentch or Death list you would know that basic unbinding is pretty toothless. Nagash has +5 to cast while Tzeentch, apart from any casting buffs, will have more spell casting attempts than you have unbinding attempts (hell they may even have more wizards then you have unbinding attempts), and thats without fate dice ensuring a few autocasts. The spell portal will even enable some wizards to stay out of the 30" unbind range anyway and without a wizard, khorne will not be able to dispell it (or any other endless spells) once its out there. 

Certainly you can build a Khorne list dedicated to shutting down the magic phase but you are probably sacrificing some melee prowess and wont generate much blood tithe. You might get away with that against tzeentch but against Death you will get tabled. Going to be a long wait for a new battletome...

[AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion]

Look, being positive is good, but how could prayers getting rule of one'd not make you pessimistic??? The last think Khorne needs is another nerf! If you did want to build a list around generating blood tithe then taking Blood Sacrifice more then once would be crucial. Yes there are a  few artifacts that can generate blood tithe in certain situations but then you are missing out on the damage dealing capabilities of things like the Crimson Crown or Death Dealer which are greatly needed to buff our units or Heroes. Not to mention the Brazen Rune is pretty much mandatory in the new magic heavy meta so thats one artifact slot permanently locked up. And it means we will pretty much never consider the new realm specific artifacts as we are forced to take specific artifacts from our own allegiance just to make our already mediocre allegiance ability functional... thats pretty broken design from Khorne's perspective. 

Its nice that virtually none of our heros need to be the general to use their command abilities, however if taking Skarr & Karanak is mandatory, and you also run a maxed out gore pilgrims with 3 priests and a bloodsecrator, then none of your heroes would have a command ability anyway...

Even without gore pilgrims you will still want a bloodsecrator and at least one slaughter priest for unbinding if nothing else. Including Skarr and Karanac still only leaves you with 2 hero slots for about 10 viable choices. Even then, if you go for a bloodstoker or an allied wizard or Cygor, you still might only end up with one Hero with a command ability. Once per battle we might use an extra command point to ensure an auto run of 6 or to reroll a charge... whoopy do...

As for summoning, if you somehow manage to bank the points without using any of the original blood tithe abilities (good luck not needing spell eater curse in the first few turns), bringing in a bloodthirster is nothing to sneeze at. However its likely to not occur until turn 4 and with the charge likely to fail, the summoned unit has one turn to do something. Considering you wont have any blood tithe to start the game and prior to summoning a bloodthirster you have probably not spent any bloodtithe in turns 2 & 3,  our allegiance ability brings us absolutely zero benefit for 60% of the game. 

I admire you for staying positive but perhaps you haven't fully considered all of the implications the new edition brings? Yes all the tools are there for Khorne to be competitive, however the in built limitations of the game and our allegiance ability mean we can't ever access all of the tools at once and therefore will struggle to compete.