Scurvydog

And with the battalion for this example, when you roll the 1, 3 and 6 to allocate the mortal wounds, the 6 is completely discarded, and the immortis will not need to roll any shrugs at all. So it is a decent battalion rule that will heavily discourage anyone to target heroes near these guys or the morghasts, hence I believe some archai bodyguards and this battalion flying around near a Arkhan will be great and a tough nut to crack, especially in petrifex.

Yes once the hero fails a save or gets a MW you roll a dice to transfer the wound. On 2+ it works but on a 5+ in the battalion it is ignored and not allocated at all. If the roll is 2-4 then it is allocated to the bodyguard. In the case of archai and mortal wounds they can then ignore it on 5+ and after that their 6++. Basically it is a bad idea to try and throw mortal wounds at a hero with archai guards from the aegis battalion.

I completely agree with this, the balance is really off with the legions. I do not concern myself with choosing a legion model wise, I paint them as I want and just play the legion rules I want. I am not in the spot some space marines players are, being die hard about only playing their own chapter rules. But I can respect anyone who prefers to do it like that and completely dedicate to a theme. I prefer the Praetorians style, just because they really have that military theme going. Orderly ranks of cold killers, a mix of death and horror with the style of the most feared ancient and historic armies from the real world. Both the internal and external balance is rather terrible, yes playing Tzeentch VS Null Myriad is going to be all kinds of terrible, probably the worst matchup in the game now for Tzeentch by far. I would also have preferred a bit more power put into the general allegiance rules, and a bit less into especially petrifex. The Crematorians are indeed in the spot I would consider interesting, as that brings more flavor than power. The idea behind Ivory host is also more interesting, but the execution ends up falling short, as the drawbacks are just too severe and the benefit not even 100% reliable when you need it. The crematorians have a horrible command ability and even worse traits and artefacts, yay my general just died a bit harder

Running and charging is better than -1 bravery, although if you do not use any cavalry the command ability is useless, so it is a bit niche, but far superior in that niche though (kavalos spam). Katakros in a praetorian army you get: +1 hit and save 18"/36" bubble costing 1 command point. you get the -1 bravery and reroll hit vs chargers. The trait is not used as Kat is the general. The artifact is useless. Katakros in petrifex: The +1 save is gained by everyone, no range, making it no loss to miss out on from Kat. you then just get the +1 hit 18"/36". You get the +1 rend command ability which is far superior. You get no trait still. You get an artifact ignoring 1st wound in any phase, which is far better than the blade, as you should really not need a Liege combat hero anyway with Kat. In petrifex you dont have to worry about a wounded katakros giving a smaller +1 save bubble, you just got it. I will easily trade -1 bravery aura and the reroll hit vs chargers command, in favor of constant +1 save no matter what and access to a +1 rend command and an actually useful artifact.

Wound allocation is a bit wonky at times, but I believe it will basically follow normal processes after the armor save step, so whatever the heroes armor save fails will then carry over on a 2+ to the morghast. Then this is treated as an unsaved wound or mortal wound with all the secondary saves and ignores after that. I might be wrong but this is how I see it.

Vokmortian would be more interesting if the immortis ability was to intercept rules, but having your high save guys just take wounds handed out by a 5+ save model will just crumble them right away. If you somehow were allowed to use their saves to intercept the hits, then Vokmortian and some bodyguards could parade up and try to bad touch some nasty beast, but that seems suicidal still. Vokmortians -1 to be dispelled might just be worth his 180 pts if he was not locked to a legion, but alas he is locked to the worst one, if not I might have considered him instead of a Soulmason to get of crucial endless spells, but the soulmason is 40 pts less and can 5/6 times cast 3 spells or even more if rolling a 6.

Regarding stalkers, without any buffs the falchions seem pointless, only 0.2 damage better when using reroll to hit (but why) and a loss when using precision as all sane people will, besides the occasional reroll saves in a pinch I guess. 10.4 with falchions vs 4+ saves and 11.1 with all 3 using the blades. I think they look kind of badass, but they are plain worse, if at least they had 2" reach to do some more clever positioning, but nope.

They only have 5" move, but their 3+ base save should not be ignored. In Petrifex they have a 2+ making them a great all around unit, although in the anvil role they overlap with mortek guard. 12 wound with a 2+ save for 200 pts is quite good, mortek can get 20 wounds for 260 pts with 3+ rerollable save and possibly more damage, but that really depends on how many can get into combat, which is easier for 3 immortis than 20 models. Obviously the Immortis will have the most value also protecting something precious. Your army will really hurt if you lose your Liege, but if petrifex he will have a 2+ save, his 6++ and probably 9 wounds from the trait, so not particularly squishy at all... Guarding a wizard might be prudent, which allows you to more safely parade a boneshaper up table next to these guys, safely supporting your army.

I really like them too, but yea without buffs Immortis guard and Morghasts are about equal in output ~6.5-6.7 damage against 4+ save models, while stalkers using precision is 10.4 damage. The immortis guards scale quite well with additional attacks if they have a Liege nearby to give that though. I am still not sure what to build immortis or stalkers, I already got myself 2 morghasts before the box was announced so I will get 2 more I guess... yay... For pure damage dealing I think the choice is stalkers all the way only due to precision stance, all the others will give them less damage than morghasts and immortis guards. I would ideally have 1 of each, but the battalions are messing with me here, making it attractive to stack up on at least 2 similar units, so have access to an 80 pts battalion. Choices choices...

My point about the +1 hit from Katakros is that yes it is good, but the skrieker spell for 30 points can give a +1 to be hit 12" bubble and also the helm artifact on a standard liege kavalos provies +1 hit 12" bubble and as just about everything hits on a 3+, there is not really a need for more. a 200 point kavalos in petrifex will give all the +1 save for the legion, and the 12" +1 hit bubble is so good, that I do not think 300 points more for Katakros justifies a larger bubble of +1 hit, a 50/50 CP steal and a -1 hit debuff. I think most opponents can mostly ignore him and come out on top points wise. (I wont say he is terrible, just his main niche easily replaced by less than half the points cost). A Liege Kavalos gives 2 CP and the +1 attack command. Katakros already gives 1+d3 points and also has the +1 attack, so taking Zandtos along with Katakros will most likely just be overkill in CP and also overlap in command abilities and now you have 720 points of characters and nobody yet to give an artifact and no wizards, that does not seem efficient sadly. We will have to see with the Vokmortian battalion, usually these boxed battalions are not allowed in matched play.

I originally found AoS to be a huge downgrade to Warhammer fantasy, as a setting and game. In the start there was just all this completely wacko fluff about Sigmar having a space dragon friend, talking about their feelings for thousands of years and then making the realms and for some reason remaking chaos as well, to then be stuck in endless war with them for no apparent reason. Then we had all the imaginary horse rules and other nonsense for old models, which to many was just insult to injury. I only really got into AoS last summer, as I stuck to 40k for a long while. Now I only really care about AoS so that is telling. The original nonsense fluff is still there, but now I can better view it as our real world mythology, which is the same nonsense, but if you think of the age of myth stuff as being what is told at campfires of the common people, it creates some value to it. The new fluff is much better and even though I am normally the "knights in armor" kind of guy, I currently have much more interest in Nagash, and all stories about the realm of death in general are super interesting I think, the soul wars story included, despite being perhaps a bit formulaic. Nagash is just a great character and the pantheon bickering and fights are great, and how these characters interact is fun in all stories. I weep for the loss of the old world, and somehow wish it was still its own thing. All games being released like total war, vermintide etc in the old world is a bit like parading a corpse around at this point, but I digress. Fantasy is now an old lost friend, but AoS is a new friend, and it has a lot of new interesting things to offer. I like how GW just goes crazy with the designs and I bet they are having tons of fun coming up with all these new factions. We are playing a game with flying war turtles and eels, dwarfs on fire or flying in steampunk airships and delusional ghouls thinking they are noble knights, all great fun. AoS has grown so much and still has plenty of room for growth, they made their sandbox setting and are playing their hearts out and everything feels much more fresh than 40k, despite some positive developments in that game as well. Both AoS and 40k to an extent are plagued by a big problem though, the fear of squatting or becoming obsolete. I lost interest in my imperial 40k armies with the down the the primaris, great models and all, but my old marines and grey knights etc were just right for the bin, people said otherwise back then, but to this day this still holds true. AoS has it even worse, with the mix of "old world" stuff and new models/factions. Perhaps the price of creativity, but making "safe" purchases are difficult, as we have even seen a shift from AoS 1.0 factions to AoS 2.0 factions. My armies are Seraphon, nighthaunt and Ironjawz, currently waiting for my boxes of bonereapers. I have little faith in the support for my Seraphon, they are hardly mentioned in any stories at all, not present in any of the other games in the AoS setting and have a bunch of outdated sculpts. I currently do not wish to invest in them, before I get any 2.0 tome news, and who knows what they might squat, perhaps all the resin models? I thought Ironjawz, being models made for AoS were sure to get great support, but they suffered for a long while and the new book, while having some power, seems like an afterthought with no terrain or spells, no new models or boxes or anything, still hardly a handful of heroes to chose from and 3 units, thats it, so disappointing. If they can clean it up a bit more concerning their supported main factions, keep the fluff moving forward and just trim a bit of the top balance wise of the current meta sweepers, then the game would be from great to incredible.

That is the depressing part, the Praetorians are not even worth taking with Katakros. The +1 rend command ability is generelly more useful instead of reroll hit against charging units. -1 bravery aura hardly matters. The -3 to rend artifact is silly as well, If you run Praetorians without Katakros or the Arch Kavalos, what are you doing. You dont want to use both even, and certainly not another Kavalos liege, so who will use that -3 rend? a Wizard?... This in turn drastically reduces the use of Katakros. If he is not wounded, he deals no damage at all and hardly any movement. His +1 save is not relevant, as you can just run petrifex with basically only upsides. His +1 to hit is decent, but you can get that from the shrieker or from the helm of the ordained in a 12" bubble from any old Liege Kavalos, as long as you have a battalion for that extra artifact. So Katakros' +1 to hit aura is only half decent and can easily be replaced. His +1 save is pointless. He has no board presence or combat ability worth talking about if simply ignored. Then all he brings is the 4+ remove command points and his -1 to hit for any enemy unit as well as some healing. This is all quite decent, but is it really worth the points? Rule of cool yes, but otherwise not really I think. Even worse is the Arch Kavalos and Vokmortian. The Arch Kavalos loses all his value due to the existence of helm of the ordained, and I doubt any setup will use him and another kavalos liege, that seems like a poor idea for 400 points. He has the +1 dmg on charge for 3 attacks and his reroll 1 to wound command, not that impressive. If petrifex I'd use the CP for 1 rend anyway, not like we lack things to use points on. I'd like to hear reasons to use the new unique characters, as being locked into praetorians to me seems so terrible and the minimal upsides (arch kavalos and Vokmortian) compared to not being able to get traits and artefacts. I think Arkhan is really cool though and will probably pick up the model finally. Nagash is just overpriced nonsense, but good for a laugh I guess, having access to an entire spell lore mostly around buffing a non excisting army because he takes all the points.

So a 200 point model can once per game have a 50/50 chance to kill a grot hero for 70 points? I do not see how that is so incredibly good, lots of spells and other things are just as likely to do that just fine. The base catapult shots are decent with 3 shots 2+/3+ 5 dmg, but no rend hurts a lot. The average damage against a unit of Liberators for example is 4,17, meaning you will more often than not kill 2 of these guys. Assuming you get to shoot all 5 rounds, you will on average kill 10 liberators, which costs 200 points. So basically the standard shot will at best earn home the point cost in the very last battle round. The cauldron of torment is only good against select few armies, anything with bravery 7+ is completely immune to the shot, while it can wipe out half a stabba unit, this is more the exception than the norm. It will have no effect on basically all top tournament armies currently. The cursed stele is very hit and miss as well. 2d6-3 at full wounds modifier, so on average it can kill a 4 wound hero and a bit less than average the more common 5 wound hero. That is decent, but as mentioned above, is it really all that impressive with a 50/50 chance from a 200 point unit to once per game kill a typical 100ish point model?

Well then you could counter following RAW they should not be setting up the other terrain in the first place. Completely ignoring 1 rule (however silly it might be) and then go all in RAW on another is complete nonsense. Tournament organizers will have to take this into account. RAW is that players not alternate between setting up terrain pieces. I personally dislike this rule, but it is what it is, and now it is also beginning to be integrated directly into battletomes, making it harder to ignore. Both Orruks having a clan based on 1 terrain piece, and now Bonereapers working different than others, this is something TO's need to consider. Once you divert from the core rules, such as house ruling terrain is predefined on tables, then they need to make a sweeping house rule for faction terrain, or have a judge/3rd party to the game make sure this is set up in a fair manner. This is complicated though, and not made easier by every battletome basically having unique rule for their terrain setup, even the 2 new tomes of bonereapers and ogors their terrain setup is vastly different, both in relation to when they are set up but also the limitations to where it can be placed.

So I have been reading the rules for the Crawler again and again for the Cauldron of torment and this is how I understand it: For example you shoot at a unit of 20 stabbas. These guys have bravery 4. You roll a dice for each model in the unit, so 20 dice. you add the modifier, which is 0 at full bracket. If the roll is equal or greater than the UNMODIFIED bravery characteristic of the unit, 1 model is slain. So in this example you roll 20 dice, and they are bravery 4 unmodified, meaning out of 20 dice, each 4+ is a dead stabba. Is that correct? Also meaning bravery 7+ units are completely immune, as it is only based on the unmodified bravery, so you can not debuff them for greater effect. At first I thought it was the total roll of all dice killing 1 model, but that did not really make sense...

You can't do this though, as the first artifact needs to be the petrifex one, ignoring the first wound in each phase, so you need another hero to get the helm of the ordained. With just a lot of mortek guards you will have a lot slower army too. It will be a bit tougher to remove from the table thanks to mortel reroll saves command, but will be less mobile and have less of a hammer with no kavalos. An easy fix for the artifact problem is to split the 40 unit into 2x20 and remove 1 unit of 10 and get a boneshaper. The additional magic output, his healing and being able to use the +1 hit helm should easily be worth it.

Yes and the battalions including them are only 80 points, although it does require very specific investments in morghasts and 2x stalkers or immortis. I tihnk the Aegis the superior one, for example in a list such as the one I posted a bit earlier, running next to Arkhan. The other one giving the single 6" move is very very niche, and almost only worth it for the artefact and 1 disc point per turn, just running the stalkers and morghasts ahead of the rest of the army is a great way to get them picked of and killed, but I guess it could work in some battleplans, the harbingers alone would be able to cover 6"+3"+9" and charge 3d6". I have a feeling it is better to run with Mortek guards, Kavalos and harvesters than the other big guys, but I don't think they are leagues behind and got a place in some plans and lists. I would not completely disregard the importance of Morghasts having either 5+ ignore mortal wounds or 3d6 charges and -1 bravery aura. With the Hekatos keyword and especially in petrifex, they are certainly far scarier than before, it is just the stalkers +1 rend and damage stance that makes the other big guys look bad

Yea so far if not stated specifically, you can stack anything, like how Ironjawz used to stack waaagh, but now the ability states once per battle for example. If not stated, you can trigger it multiple times. This might get FAQ'd though.

Ok new attempt, my calculator betrayed me, and warscroll builder has spoiled for for too long Petrifex Elite Arkhan: 360 200: Liege Kavalos - general (+2 wounds trait), Helm of the ordained (+1 hit 12" bubble) 130: Boneshaper - forced ignore 1st wound artifact 200 - Immortis guard 200 - Immortis guard 210 - Morghast Archai 360 - 2 x 5Kavalos riders 260 - 20 x Mortek guard 80 - Aegis battalion Total: 2000. 112 wounds. Generated 5 discipline points per turn + 8xd6 rolls on 6+. The shaper can handle the endless spell, his own are not that hard to cast, take one of the easier to cast spells. Arkhan is free to use curse of years and the 2 last spells for damage and debuffing for example, with access to all the spells he will be very flexible. With his morghasts bodyguard and +1 to saves they can also go in as a hammer in combat without risking Arkhan too badly. The Liege is expensive, but decent hitting power, generated 2 points per turn and has auseful +1 attack command and can get the 12" +1 to hit bubble, which can all make the Kavalos terrifying. Add in the +1 to rend command from petrifex and they will rip through stuff. The immortis guards can go where needed, they might be a bit too slow to keep up with the riders, but they can also create a front line along with the mortek, which is a very hard to kill combo. Keep Arkhan near enough for his passive 3 wound heals, and this line will be rock solid to break, as each healed wound will have a great value. This list will push out rend 2 or 3 all day, can cast 4 spells per turn and 4 dispells, with Arkhan having +2, so a tough spell defense, everything with 3+ or 2+ saves. Some ok healing with Arkhan and shaper. On average quite mobile and fast, and access to average 6-7 discipline points per turn, will allow for a nice amount of movement uses, while also having enough for offensive commands. The helm will give a nice chunk of units +1 to hit to end up on 2+, which is why I did not go for the skrieker spell in this list. The mason can hand out reroll 1 to hit, so hitting things should be fairly reliable.

I updated it, I saw something was off

Edited, math is hard

All this talk about the support heroes keeping up, really drives it home how useful Arkhan is, as he can easily fly around where needed and extend spell ranges. With petrifex he will really benefit from +1 save, and I could see a scenario where running the aegis immortal battalion could be useful, it is only 80 points and you could have the morghasts guard Arkhan, and use the immortis guard where needed. Immortis guard fighting alongside harvesters and with support from Arkhan will be really annoying to remove from the table (especially as petrifex). Pepper ind some mortek guard and a catapult for some more ranged threat, and I think that could be a cool defensive army.

You can bring them, but for example the arch cavalos command ability only works on praetorians. So if you bring him in a petrifex elite army, you pay 20 more points to get a slightly better weapon (2" reach and +1 dmg on charge), you get 2" more move and he has reroll 1 to wound against non death. Compared to a regular liege, who will cost 20 points less, but have the +1 save and the ability to use an artifact. As I mentioned if you have a battalion to grab another artefact, then getting that Helm of the Ordained giving 12" radious of +1 to hit for bonereapers is a nice prospect and basically ends up with Katakros command benefits in a smaller bubble (+1 save petrifex, +1 hit helm bubble). This combo being possible makes it far less likely I will play praetorians and use Katakros sadly, although I will get the model due to the rule of cool.

I don't see anything meta breaking here, and they are most definitely not designed in any way remotely close to Slaneesh, FeC and skaven and even DoK. These top dog armies all are able to do a series of things that make them top armies: 1. Manipulation of the activation order in combat. The big one, the reason KoS slaneesh spam wins all in combination with - 2. Ability to fight twice. Slaneesh takes the cake of being able to do this and force you to fight last. In general just gives the most value for 1 CP by far. 3. Easy summoning. Both Slaneesh and FeC get their summoning for basically no effort and it is really powerful. 4. High movement/board presence. Easier to play the pbjectives when stuff moves fast, and these armies can all either get around fast (like monsters flying) or run+charge, teleport (gnawholes). 5. Stackable saves/survivability. This is mostly for DoK, but also goes for Fyreslayer hearthguards and FeCs ability to bring stuff back easily. These are all so powerful because it hinders your opponents ability to combat you greatly, and makes some engagements nearly impossible. Like engaging 1 keeper of secrets with any 1 unit will just kill you 5/6 times. You will have to deal with models coming on the board all over the place. Be unable to account for specific units being summoned etc. Bonereapers have none of these things that make out a top tier army. They are REALLY powerful within all the more grounded aspects of the game, although this is heavily based on the Petrifex Elite legion, and armywide average save of 3+ is good. However a 10 pts Witch Elf with 5+ rerollable wound ignores is still more efficient survivability wise, as every wound is pricey for the reapers, and the cost per wound, and the effort needed to remove said wounds is what creates a total army survivability. Reapers have very limited "healing" compared to LoN or FeC, on average you will not see many models brought back. A far cry from a LoN list bringing whole units back for 1 CP. Healing is also limited, with only Arkhan, Nagash and Katakros being able to do any real output of this, and even that will not be massive, with max 3 wounds healed for a unit. They have a lot of points to do "command abilities", but no access to the core book abilities, only their own warscroll and allegiance ones. They have no fight twice abilities or something like that, so despite many points to play with, the impact of each is rather average, with no real standouts. Board presence and movement is also somewhat poor, but is within what I'd say is alright and proabably a good balance, but compared to teleporting armies, Kepers moving 14", across the board runs+charges etc, they do not have a lot to work with here, other than their +3" movement for 1 CP. Remember they have no access to an auto 6 to run though and no access to the basic reroll charges either. While saves are good, especially with the unfortunately sort of mandatory legion with +1 saves, this can all be dealth with with rend attacks. They have little mortal wound protection, other than 1 legion vs spells, but any other sources of mortal wounds will hurt them really really bad, as mentioned before, each wound is very costly. I actually think they are in a spot where the game should be, around the level of Gloomspite Gitz for example. Some fun combos, some really good and cool stuff, such as impactful command abilities and access to a lot of tactics and strategies, but no access to any specific "I win" mechanic, like discussed above. You can actually play within the core rules against these guys, on any aspect other than battleshock (but who does this anymore anyway). They work very much like a "traditional" army, you know how far those guys can move, how the cavalry can move etc, no shenanigans suddenly happening. All their spells are somewhat tame, mostly being buffs or debuffs, but still useful. Against the reapers you can use all the tools of your army reliably and plan ahead. If you charge them, you hit them in the order stated by the core rules, You also know they will not suddenly fight you out of order or in the hero phase or whatever, so less stuff to consider in your planning, so you can focus on other things. I hope the rant makes sense, but I think the generel point should be rather clear, that the more an army operates outside the normal rules of the core book, the more powerful they usually are. The Bonereapers only change this up slightly with their command points, but otherwise you can face them and expect everything to work within the core ruleset, they are very powerful in that regard, but do not break any game mechanics in the manner the top armies do.

So you want to run Praetorians for the Arch Kavalos? That sounds like a really really bad idea. If you want advice on the "best" way to run this list, I think Petrifex elites is the best, and with the Kavalos battalion. But why not Stalliarch lords? because the battalion already allows you to retreat and charge, for no cost. The battalion also gives you more discipline points, 1 free use of the riders ability and an artifact! And this is important and why you want 2 normal lieges, so you can dump the ignore wound artifact on 1 and take the Helm of the ordianed on the other for +1 to hit 12" bubble! This effectively gives you 1-2 more discipline points per turn, it gives you +1 to hit bubble, running petrifex makes them all +1 save and you can then use all those extra discipline points on the petrifex command ability, to get an extra rend on your attacks. This will deal a tremedous amount of additional damage compared to anything else and be far sturdier with 3+ saves too. The arch kavalos and Vokmortian are not really worth the poor legion in my opinion, such a shame they are locked to the praetorians. The reroll 1 to wound thing and slightly better spear is so little, and you cant give him artefacts or traits. Vokmortian is mostly decent due to the -1 to get dispelled, but I don't see that as being better than the mason, who at 40 points less got a more useful spell and ability to possibly cast it even more times. I liked stalliarch lords right until I saw the battalion, which does the most important part regarding retrait and charge for free, and makes it far better to go petrifex by a huge margin.