[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

4 hours ago, stratigo said:

If you nerf the khemist, you have to buff every weapon. If you nerf the skyhook, the only change would be making khemists cheaper again.

 

You have to nerf skyhooks anyways since they are always going to be superior to the other options, since the other two weapons are just lackluster. I don't think there will ever be a point where the volley gun is balanced to the level of the skyhook, they will inevitably always be a winner and a loser in that. But the pikes should cater to a different style, and just be strictly mathmatically superior to the ranged weapons to compensate for being a melee weapon on an extremely fragile unit

You're leaving out the Riggers again, but anyway. As Kramer said we probably won't agree on this, so let's just see what (and more importantly when) GW will do with the Overlords. 

They deserve some changes and the sooner the better at that. Way too cool a concept to leave it half-baked.

[AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion]

That's a general problem with battle lines across multiple factions. 

But I too think the main problem is 3x10 instead of 1x30. 1x30 would fit in many armies.

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

That's what I meant. Thanks @Kramer for explaining it better!

You're basically saying the same thing, @stratigo. The Skyhook should be nerfed. And I'm saying nerf the Khemist instead, make him less swingy, see where we stand & buff Volleygun & Sky Pike (and points) accordingly.

The difference can also be seen with Skywardens & Endrinriggers. The Latter double their attacks, the former don't get picked. Do you want to nerf Endrinriggers, too? In order to buff Skywardens? I'm saying nerf the Khemist, see where both units stand, then buff.

Now, Skywardens have their own problems, but Khemist doesn't help their cause either.

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

1 hour ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Look no further than the Bloodsecrator, who at 140 points projects an 18" bubble where every unit within 18" gets +1 attack AND battleshock immunity.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm not even saying that it shouldn't exist in the KO army in one form or another (+1 attack Command ability maybe?).

I'm saying that I think it should be part of an overhaul so that our RANGED units won't be held back by its existence. 

In short I'm against "must have"s and "only viable with X" (not to be mistaken for "more viable with X" which imo is good synergy).

But I'm completely with you that no change should be made without an overhaul.

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

10 hours ago, Nicholunch said:

I don't think the khemist is the problem for the army. If anything it's what helps make it competitive to other new, strong armies. DoK get +1 attacks, Death get +1 attacks, chaos get additional attacks, etc.

The Thunderers were poorly written at first, and that's why they got changed, I think. Even 10 guys shooting hand cannons 36" with d3 damage would've been too much. No other units get all special weapons choices unrestricted. Especially not for 100 points. But other armies get +1 to attacks all the time.

Magic unbinding helped the Navigator be relevant. If anything, they need to find more value in the admiral and emdrinmaster. 

The changes created a little more difficulty. But after a few games, I feel we still have a chance to make some room for ourselves. I do agree we need more unit choices. And I feel like we need more opportunity to deal out mortal wounds. And we should be able to fire from the ship decks without having to disembark.

 

We're not saying the Khemist is the problem for the army. We're saying he's the problem regarding future buffs. 
Many armies get +1 attack but to my knowledge only through command abilities. Static buffs most often come in the form of +1 to hit/wound, rerolls or extra saves.

I agree on the matter of admiral & endrinmaster. The former could be helped by the Arkhelian King treatment - meaning Skywardens become battle line when he's the general.

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

Well, to my knowledge - and I sadly can't point you to where I read it, so take it with a grain of salt - the KO are at least the "other faction" (besides SCE) that are confirmed to get a new battle tome some time in the future.

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

3 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

If the Khemist granted a simple +1 to Hit and/or to Wound, it would easier to justify this affecting all of the units weapons rather than just one yes?  Because that's something I would really like to see.  A unit wide effect would really help out Thunderers, and Arkanauts, and Skywardens...everyone really.

An Aethermatic Volleygun hitting on 4s (3s against characters and monsters) and wounding on 3s would be quite nasty yes?  And Aethershot Rifles hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s?  Yes please!

This is definitely something I'd consider "part of the deal". Steamlined, easy to implement, good for all types of weapons - like the Volleyguns that look fantastic, feel like they should have a place in a generic KO army - but just don't, because Khemist as of now is just awful on them & without any buffs they just don't hit well enough.

3 hours ago, Kramer said:

Yes, and one more unit just because it's cool  

The melee equivalent of Thunderers would be my pick. I refer to them as "Ironbreakers on Airships" =D. With Cutlass, Shield and a short-range gun in the cutlass (or shield) because reasons! Also 2 new ships. The "no transport all shoot" version of the frigate & a small Gunhauler size transporter.

All 3 together basically make up my complete wish list.

2 hours ago, Nick907 said:

This is a great discussion, I hope the company picks up on it and acts. GW has been really good about that lately. KO are a fun concept and my favorite force so far in any tabletop war game, so I will continue to collect them regardless of the rules. Thanks to the yearly release of the GHB and the ease of changing online warscrolls, it really wouldn't take too much effort to change rules for the Khemist and reduce points for infantry.
I  think the KO can avoid a 'total remake from the ground up' this way.

A good way would be some changes sooner than later, and a revision of the Battletome in the foreseeable future - meaning some time in 2019.

11 minutes ago, stratigo said:

the level of changes we're talking about now is a full on new battle tome though, which is probably more than a year off

We're definitely talking full on new battle tome here. But I think it's kind of justified here. KO are so cool, so thematically interesting, have such great models that it's a shame they feel so pigeonholed and kind of incomplete.

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

18 hours ago, stratigo said:

again, only if you change the rest of the book too, because this would make the bottom fall out under KO entirely

I think we've established that any changes to the Khemist would have to be met with compensation elsewhere in the book.

In fact that whole discussion is based on that. Weaken the one thing that has to big an impact in order to be able to bring the rest on par.

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

What about generic +1 to hit (or wound) and a Command ability that buffs both instead of one on the affected unit (units?)?
Could be the sweet spot.

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

That would depend on the overall "balance overhaul", I guess.
There would be many ways to incorporate the Khemist-Buff. Rerolls, +1 to hit, to wound, both, something inbetween. +1 Attack via command ability. The list is long. 
It all depends on the rest, because without the Khemist-Buff as is, KO would need an overhaul & a few new units to fill the blanks even more. 
With that being said, I'm all for it. If a Buffer leads to a unit being nerfed, the buffer is probably too strong.

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

Instead of (or maybe in addition to) 3+ hit I could also see "+1 attack when charging" as a special rule for them. 

Would compensate some of their weakness & also make them less reliant of the Khemist buff. 

But something else that occurred to me. They did get their points increased, didn't they? Do you guys think that's an indicator of a 2.0 book some time soon? February or something like that?

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

It's basically the Khemist that singlehandedly makes Skywardens so much worse than the Riggers. 
They're worse without the buff (except in units so large the 2" reach makes a difference) but much worse with the buff. 
4+ to hit REALLY hurts them & I'm not sure why they don't hit on 3 (rest stays the same). 
They do get better with "Settle the Grudges" though and that's where I see some potential but probably not enough.

 

[AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion]

I think it's fairly safe to say both have their merits. 
However one could argue wether to take 2 units with one weapon type each or mix them up. 
That's assuming we'll field cleansing phalanx and hence 2 units of Evocators.

[AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion]

19 minutes ago, AdamR said:

They are worse against 4+ or better with rerolls though.

I think a 50:50 split is probably best for an all comers list.

Looks good, too. Bit of variation both visually & tactically.

[AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion]

I just think AotSea is just much more flexible than the AotStorm.

I might however underestimate how good 12 wounds and no stat-loss are. That's indeed super strong.

[AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion]

On 8/8/2018 at 9:58 PM, Amradiel said:

Aspect of the sea or Aspect of the storm? What do you people use? 

Sea looks like it fits better in most cases. 
Storm imo needs to be a 1 spell caster in order to compete.

[AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion]

I as of now don‘t have any Idoneth Players in my group (or, more precisely I have, but they wanna paint first) & am wondering how the „real world difference“ between the Morrsarr & the Ishlaen is. 

Real world difference as in „what units you can come across can either defeat or soak“. 

The math is relatively clear, but how it translates into actual game experience is a different story, so that‘s why I‘m asking. ?

[AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion]

1 minute ago, aceytrixx said:

Solbright has a better version of the command ability and is cheaper but has a worse spell and is limited to hammers only. 

Exactly. And if she wasn‘t Hammers only, I‘d be ok with that. But as it is it feels just a tad wrong to auto-include the Gryph Charger Dude.

[AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion]

51 minutes ago, Roark said:

What do you mean mate? Sorry, I'm not really deep into Stormcast fluff yet, but what's un-thematic about the Gryph-charger?

I‘m talking about the fact that the whole Sacrosanct Chamber is thematically built around Dracolines & the Tauralon - but the guy with the best command Ability (who also has a pretty potent spell) rides a Gryph Charger.

The Gryph Charger on the other hand is the mount of choice for the Vanguard. But the command ability of the Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger doesn’t affect Vanguard units. It‘s instead specifically for Sacrosanct Chamber Units. 

It‘s a bit as if there was a Lord Celestant with a potent command ability that affects the whole Dracothian Guard. Except he neither rides a Dracoth nor a Star Drake but an „Angry Moa“ that completely breaks with the visuals of the rest of your army.  

[AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion]

Is anyone else here kind of annoyed, that the Lord Arcanum with the best Command Ability is the one with the thematically least fitting mount?

I‘m off course talking about the Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger and strictly from a fluff perspective. The model is good & Ride the Wind fits the Lord Arcanum‘s playstyle well.

[AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion]

On 8/4/2018 at 5:09 PM, Curzex said:

Hi guys, yesterday i play vs Stormcast. I just win so fast, my club dont want to play vs idoneth, they think we are OP.

What  can  I do? 

I just have 12 eels 1 shark turtle volturnos and one king, 1 caster and 1 Aspect of sea. 

Should i just buy suboptimal infantry? Or dont play with fuethan?

Thx.

 

@Kitty wrote about playing to your respective community. That‘s imo definitely the way to go. 

What you could also, but in the same spirit do is, to help your club built more competitive lists. That way you can have fluffy games if you want (where everyone cuts back) or „harder“ ones, where you go all out - but everyone with good lists, not just you. Some factions basically built themselves, others need more tinkering. Help them, get better together!

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

4 hours ago, BWG Cannonball said:

So I know it doesn't follow a lot of the mainstream tactics of KO, but I almost always run a 10 man Thunderer unit with Rifles and Mhornar.  Hop out 3", move, run, Khemist Buff, gives me an effective threat range of 31" firing 32 shots, rerollilng misses against the planned target with a -1 Rend.    In the last tournament I went to between that unit and some skyooks I was able to take out Nagash first turn.

 

I understand the want to upgrade the aether saws on the Endrinriggers, but I absolutely hate the d3 rather than flat damage.

That is in deed pretty potent. Works on a great variety of enemies, too. Basically everything but Hordes. But even then it‘s not so bad. ?

Nice. I‘ll look into that. 

Besides. I don‘t think there is much of a relevant KO mainstream. We have to try out stuff. And I for one like the reasoning behind your Thunderers a lot!

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

These are stock Thunderers (or should i say „stok“ Thunderers, huehuehue), no special weapons, equipped, right? I „guess“ for Khemist reasons. 

I‘m really torn on these. I kinda of want to give them some sort of special weapon, taking all of them totally ruins the Khemist buff, while taking only some of them feels wrong, too. Have you experimented with something like 2 Aethercannons in 10 Thunderers, but nothing else?

It feels so wrong not to give them something, yet, gut feeling & naive fallacy point me towards 10 without any special weapons.

[AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion]

I‘m looking forward to this. Especially should the meta have shifted to a more alpha strike environment. We‘ll see. 

Keep us updated, please!

[AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion]

Well, depends on your goals. For some it‘s ok to do well, if the army as a whole is fun to play and you bond with your guys and their story etc. 

For others it isn‘t.

And I think nobody enjoys painting a cool army just to get your ass whooped  every time.  That also really takes the fun out of the game =D.

So, yeah, some kind of balance has to be archived, no matter how fluff related you play. And that balance always has to do with how strong your guys are.

So I think apart from cavalry looking good next to the coach, the Hexwraith in said army idea could (even storywise) be Grimghasts, which I think would make a stronger choice - although maybe not better looking or not as well fitting (Hey, did I mention how dated the Hexwraith look? ).