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Except much of what made up traditional Dark Elves are now DOK. So I think they're going to be something quite different. More demonic.

I think that's a really good point. There's no such thing as a perfect paint job and theoretically any painter can spend an infinite amount of time painting any model, but the results of doing so are going to plateau at some point. But there's an inverse effect too in which a model looks complete, and I think what's apparent from this thread is that the incline to the plateau for both is steep with GW rank and file. One of the really big things that influences a sense of character is a face/head and this has a lot to do with it. With more fantastical proportions the head is maybe 30% of the mini vs GW's like 8% or something. A lot of middlehammer or oldhammer-esque minis, do the face or a big shield well and the mini is basically going to look good and charismatic, do them well, you're pretty much done. Do the face right on a GW model, you still got masses to do. Another one of a reasons I was drawn to the KB's- the shields are basically their face. Got those established and you just need the shapes of everything else really. Contrast that with the grotz and weird stuff frpm the range I dislike so much- there's no centre to them, they're just a collection of weird angles and doo dahs. I had an epiphany when i started to limit my painting to "Get them done in a few hours" because I realised at this scale the collective effect is more important than painting 10 Individuals, and that the workload and process is very different if that's your aim with GW stuff. You can get trapped in the design with their stuff otherwise.

I would argue that GW stopped designing things with gaming in mind at least a few years ago, in terms of purely functional considerations. Compare the centre pieces of modern GW armies with those of a decade ago. There's no actual gaming reason for the hyper inflation involved. Its pure spectacle.

To be fair I literally just did that 😉 It's just a matter of tricking people into your perspective. Contrast paints are a god send for this. They cover things opaquely and quickly. Also inks. Also basing. You can hide any number of omissions through creative basing. I spent about 3 minutes on the feet of my troggoths per troggoth and the same again framing them with basing to hide the fact. Out of the hundreds of liked they've got across my social accounts not one person has commented on the multiple shortcuts I took: I say shortcuts but I really just see it as an extension of the design philosophy we're discussing- if a model is too loud in its sculpt, turning the volume down with a paint job is likely to produce a better balance overall, if you know where you want to accentuate and where you want to turn it down. Although it always needs to be said- don't hobby for other people, you'll never be able to control how and what they think of your work and even why. If they don't like what you've done, but you do, that's really all that matters 🙂

GW teach a painting technique designed to amplify all the details on their models too which I think conditions quite a lot of this mentality as well. It's exhausting painting every inch of every model multiple times in ever decreasing amounts. When I was learning to move away from the tedium of base shade highlight method I found a really useful exercise was to just paint one or two areas-face and shield, say- really well and literally just have everything else one colour, even leaving the bottom of the model black. It's a good way of seeing how context and contrast define a paintjob. People won't look at things you don't want them to if you make the other bits interesting. Of course, a good sculpt accentuates this for you by accentuating and framing the key elements. But Since learning to feel comfortable with this, I've never sweated over a random bracelet, gem, rope, trinket, wrap, etc. Just paint it in a colour complimentary to everything else and move on don't think about it. I also leave them til last so that I can spend my peak energy doing stuff which is enjoyable and interesting. By the time I get to the stupid stuff um happy with the overall composition so I know it's just a case of colouring in a few stray pixels rather than agonising over what colour to paint whatever this weird piece of garbage is.

What I will say is that its possible to paint very detailed sculpts in such a way that enables you to more or less ignore alot of the pointless junk and still end up with a good result. You need to understand how values and contrast work as concepts, but if you know how to use those techniques you can literally give extraneous bits a single coat of contrast or whatever and not have it effect the overall job. Obviously I'd rather not have to paint pointless things *at all*, but it dosent need to be a cause for paralysis. I didn't even know what these bits on the back of Rippa were (quiver and random fur) til I got half way through filling them in with paint. Those details are *right in the centre* of the sculpt, first place your eye goes to. They're pointless and they disrupt the otherwise excellent flow of the model. So I knew that I should just paint them a few complimentary shades of Brown, so they would be in keeping with the tone of the rest of the model but also hopefully muted enough to encourage attention towards the more important parts. There's little teeth and ropes on the shield too. Does it matter they're not picked out? Nope. The orange of the shield is in symmetry and harmony with the leather barding and plume, if the shield was broken up with a painted line across that would probably detract from the overall finish. That's the stuff that makes a pleasing finish, composition, not painting individual shoelaces. Which again, is why I would advocate that detail is very much secondary to shape and character. I'm confident you could remove all those aforementioned bits without affecting the integrity of the design in any way.

I posted this elsewhere on here but it's germane to the discussion so I hope you don't mind me repeating it here: My increasing feel with GW is that their designers do not trust or place enough interest in "line" or silhouette. Yes art is subjective, but undeniably most of the most celebrated, popular or attractive figures in any form of art have a defined and fairly simple shape. GW do an excellent job of line and dynamism but then they as often as not demolish it under gubbinz and bits. I sometimes think all miniature design at GW requires authorisation by someone with a fetish for bags, purses, pouche and pointless jewellery. I painted this Rockgut the other week which is a gorgeous homage to the original Stone Troll, one of the first minis I ever bought. Except for that f**king shoulder rock. Yes, I know why its there, there's narrative or whatever. But part of storytelling is economy. Not everything that can be there, should be. GW models are often three paragraphs when a sentence is better. Compare that with this from Knightmare miniatures: They're both lovely models, it's not a competition. But the above mini demonstrates that the shoulder rock not only adds nothing, but actually subtracts from the sculpt. It draws attention away from the face and pose and anatomy , which are excellent. They are excellent on the Knightmare Troll too, the difference is, the Knightmare sculpt expresses itself without any impediment. There is nothing eise there. I would say the latter Troll is like a sort of Platonic Form. As a concept, it is more self confident, and clear, and as a consequence, despite its proportions and comparative absence of detail, closer to seeming "real". The Dominion set of Kruelboyz are some of the best GW sculpts in an age precisley because they're uncluttered. They have excellent proportions, a central aesthetic and silhouette- shield, ropey muscles, spikes- and everything is in service to that. Their poses- hunched, bent- add to the overall feel of menace undercut by a faint pathos. I wanted to paint them as a project precisley because they had this aesthetically pleasing, chaotic but coherent look. That to me is sort of the sweet spot for how an army of any faction should look: uniform without being robotic, diverse without being distracting: Which is why I really dislike the little grots and the big monsters and the Underworlds warband- they make sense thematically for the KB, but artistically they're obnoxious and cluttered in opposition to the tensile menace of the gutrippaz and hobgrots. They might seem to look OK next to each other because of the narrative we've been given as to why that is, but they're in fundamental disagreement in respect to how they actually compliment each other visually . The Rockguts on the otherhand, or Rippaz Snarlfangs, look perfectly at home with the Dominion Kruleboyz, because they share similar visual notes. The mirebrute for example is *supposed* to look like it goes with the Kruelboyz, but it misses all the most important elements that actually make them work and looks like a weird pastiche as a result. The Skareshields work in combination with the otherwise stringy, quite pathetic form of the Kruelboyz. Blowing one up to the size of a car and sticking it on something with the build of a Sumo Wrestler misses the point entirely. Basically- GW design serves lore and narrative first. Which is fine, of course. When those two come together, as with much of the Gloomspite range, it's wonderful and original and timeless. Sylvaneth, DOK, Idoneth and Slaanesh are my personal exemplars of GW producing miniatures which stand on their own but are enhanced by knowledge of their lore. They do elves really well, basically (Slannesh is basically elves on acid). Drukhari, Ad Mech and Genestealer Cult over in 40k. But elsewhere the bombast of said lore often obscures pure aesthetic in other areas. In which case, a lot of the models feel trapped in their own logic. I expect to see this increase fwiw. GW is trying to push its lore further into the cultural mainstream, so the likliehood is that models covered in associated fictional ephemera will be accompanying that.

Now I know what the worlds most expensive tufts look like so that's something

To be fair it was only a few years ago that they made a big announcement that there was going to be a subsequent big announcement, which was that the Old World was coming in the future, at some non specified point

The thing that puts me off them is that every pic of them I've seen dosen't really distinguish between material on the fugure, it all looks soft and organic- clothes, armour, weapons. The stuff like the Jo'tun and the similar viking dudes and anyone with a lot of skin on show look good though. The weird creepy guys just look weird, they have no centre to them.

My pleasure! That's an excellent conversion, love it. This is mine, when I get round to him, hopefully in orctober. Very simple, just stripped the weird forklift prongs from his shield and replaced the chandelier on his hat, but I think its a big improvement. Keeps the main things the main things basically. Although I like the fact that for a first time the chief orc is *really* much bigger than the others, his size is slightly over the top I think. But not much can really be done about that.

I was 1 day away from finishing in September, furious Anyway, 3 Trolls

Hi all I'm more of a painter than a gamer but our local 1K group are struggling for numbers so I'm going to see if I can join them with what I have, there or thereabouts, from my current painting project. Not going to buy the book if I can't use it so could do with some help: I have Dominion Set Rippas Snarlfangs Gargant 3 Rockgut Troggoths I know I'm short BL if I don't want to Big Yellerz (which I don't) so I need another 10 GR. Besides that, can I make 1000 points with what's there? Can I ally in any of my fun guys and still keep KB allegiance, or does it have to be 100% KB for that? Thanks all

Thanks for starting this. I have a lot to say on GW design philosophy. If you want to make an army, or a big collection of 40+ models, I think they're still the best, yex. Not just in respect to "quality" but also coherency and composition. A few regiments, a hero or two and a centrepiece of some description, I think they do that better than anyone. The more recent diorama sculpts like Katakross or the Triumph of St Katherine are GW at the top of their game. Bottom line is, if you want variety in an army, most other lines just can't touch GW for quantity of choice to quality ratio. I think the Warcry range and Shadespire are strong ranges, but I would say there are multiple skirmish games which are as good or better. Some of the Underworlds stuff actually betray the strengths of the armies they belong to, ie that they are armies. The Ironjaws, Idoneth and Ossiarch warbands for example look very peculiar. Individual figures, I think GW are comfortably middle of the pack. As someone who primarily paints, my observation is that the best miniature painters tend to favour other manufacturers for single or focussed pieces. There are exceptions of course. But by and large those with the most skill to execute are choosing a different canvas for theit skill and expression than a GW miniature which I think says a lot. My increasing feel with GW is that their designers do not trust or place enough interest in "line" or silhouette. Yes art is subjective, but undeniably most of the most celebrated, popular or attractive figures in any form of art have a defined and fairly simple shape. GW do an excellent job of line and dynamism but then they as often as not demolish it under gubbinz and bits. I sometimes think all miniature design at GW requires authorisation by someone with a fetish for bags, purses, pouches and pointless jewellery. I painted this Rockgut the other week which is a gorgeous homage to the original Stone Troll, one of the first minis I ever bought. Except for that f**king shoulder rock. Yes, I know why its there, there's narrative or whatever. But part of storytelling is economy. Not everything that can be there, should be. GW models are often three paragraphs when a sentence is better. Compare that with this from Knightmare miniatures: They're both lovely models, it's not a competition. But the above mini demonstrates that the shoulder rock not only adds nothing, but actually subtracts from the sculpt. It draws attention away from the face and pose and anatomy , which are excellent. They are excellent on the Knightmare Troll too, the difference is, the Knightmare sculpt expresses itself without any impediment. There is nothing eise there. I would say the latter Troll is like a sort of Platonic Form. As a concept, it is more self confident, and clear, and as a consequence, despite its proportions seeming more fantastical, closer to seeming "real". What these two also demonstrate is how much character comes from the head/face. For models concerned with more "realistic" proportions that's much harder to establish in a smaller space than a model not bound by that requirement. The charisma has to come from much more of the overall body. And if you're going to obscure that body in pointless fashion accessories, you're reducing the chance of creating character further. By way of example of how to do "realistic proportions" correctly, I would suggest Black Scorpion: The weight of clothes, weapons and armour are really apparent here. Note the guy with the sword in the air is visibly affected by its heft. Its stuff like that which sells the illusion of realism. Like.. real stuff. Physics. The character of these as humans is sold through proportion but also through how their context responds to and imposes on their humanity. They look more real than pretty much anything GW have ever done because of artistic choice. Not because of high fidelity brocades or whatever. The Dominion set of Kruelboyz are some of the best GW sculpts in an age preciskey because they're uncluttered. They have excellent proportions, a central aesthetic and silhouette- shield, ropey muscles, spikes- and everything is in service to that. Their poses- hunched, bent- add to the overall feel of menace undercut by a very faint pathos. Which is why I really dislike the little grots and the big monsters and the Underworlds warband- they make sense thematically for the KB, but artistically they're obnoxious and cluttered in opposition to the tensile menace of the gutrippaz and hobgrots. They might look OK next to each other because of the narrative we've been given as to why that is, but they're in fundamental disagreement in respect to how they actually compliment each other visually . The Rockguts on the otherhand, or Rippaz Snarlfangs, look perfectly at home with the Dominion Kruleboyz, because they share similar visual notes. The mirebrute is *supposed* to look like it goes with the Kruelboyz, but it misses all the most important elements that actually make them work and looks like a weird pastiche as a result. The Skareshields work in combination with the otherwise stringy, quite pathetic form of the Kruelboyz. Blowing one up to the size of a car and sticking it on something with the build of a Sumo Wrestler misses the point entirely. Basically- GW design serves lore and narrative first. Which is fine, of course. When those two come together, as with much of the Gloomspite range, it's wonderful and original and timeless. Sylvaneth, DOK, Idoneth and Slaanesh are my personal exemplars of GW producing miniatures which stand on their own but are enhanced by knowledge of their lore. They do elves really well, basically (Slannesh is basically elves on acid). Drukhari, Ad Mech and Genestealer Cult over in 40k. But elsewhere the bombast of said lore often obscures pure aesthetic in other areas. In which case, a lot of the models feel trapped in their own logic. I find that with most of the Bloodbowl stuff for example. But the best example is Kragnos. Bad miniature, dumb face, dosent fit anywhere. He's not a good giant, or centaur, or anything really. The above are the areas which mainly interest me and on which I gauge my enjoyment with a mini. But as a side note, the notion of quality in terms of I guess detail, fidelity etc- GW are easily beat by a lot of the competition. This awesome hippo dude (edit, just seen the udders! So Hippo Gal, I guess) thing came from a boardgane, but it makes that Troll look like Duplo. And it cost like a quarter of the price.

The bottom line is from a hobby perspective, it's never been a better time for availability of quality miniatures at an affordable price. Maybe not to quite the degree of GW- say 7/8 to a lot of GW's 9- but half the price or less. One of the ways you can tell GW is feeling outside pressure is the aesthetic of the more recent stuff, Kruleboyz in particular. The existence of a wider, healthier market for fantasy products and a renaissance for its 70's/80's origins is making a lot of GW's stuff from the past decade look a bit plastic and directionless in comparison. GW are definitely leaning into that source material more. But again- you can buy models from the people who actually pioneered most of those miniatures. Again, for cheaper than GW. Basically my point is that for most of this century, GW has been the only game in town in respect to quality miniatures. Not only is that no longer the case, but smaller independents can easily and cheaply buy into the latest trends and commission quality talent on a freelance basis to produce it, usually within a pretty short window. Compare that with GW's glacial lead up times. That's the main reason behind +. They want an ecosystem in which you're all in, live and breathe only one grimdark licence and associated product. They have to be the only game in town, because the completion is getting stronger by the day. The future of overpriced miniatures, hobby supplies and labyrinthine game systems is by no means guaranteed. But IPs and associated narrative content can survive and boom like nothing else right now, thats where GW's future is, and they know that. Hence all this stuff right now.

Of course they can't provide the experience GW can at scale at a fraction of the cost. But that's not what I said. If you want to refer what I actually said, here is an example of the quality vs cost below. Designed on artwork by Adrian Smith and production overseen by Mike McVey. I have them, they make GW sculpts feel like Duplo, the details on them are incredible. The Gods are about 60mm tall, the smaller guys about 32. I got about 70 miniatures of that quality and an entire boardgame at less than £2 per model. Granted they are from a boardgame, but their quality equals or surpasses GW for an astonishing reduction in cost. Highland Miniatures, Lost Kingdom, One Page Rules, Bushido, most things from Creature Caster and a Song if Ice and Fire are all examples of sculpts that would drive GW fans wild if they released something similar into their ranges. Many of them less than half GW price. It's a culture shift. 3D designs are getting better every day and the fact is the production cost you pay for them is miniscule whether you print them yourself or get them done by someone else. I bought this giant below for £15. That's less than an Underworlds warband.

I continue to be unsurprised by GW doing the things that companies with rapidly growing profits and increasingly popular products do. I don't moraly condone it, I'm just not surprised by it. What's been interesting to me over the past month has been discovering how wrong I have been in one of my continous assumptions, that GW make the best models out there. There is now ample completion of equal quality for far less money. In some ways I think this is another reason why GW are pushing all the + stuff at this point in time and building an increasingly punitive legal structure behind their product promotion - they need to capitalise on all the benefits and goodwill attached to their lore and make that more profitable, because returns on models are going to diminish as their monopoly of model quality gets eroded.

No UK based company can really pre-empt anything with confidence at this point. Things are getting really bad Help

Free for only £150

I meant as in as close to as possible there's a guarantee that your game will be widely available and supported with new rules, models etc on a consistent basis. Not something that most wargames systems can confidently assert.

GW *is* elite. It is by far the upper end of the scale for wargaming in pretty much every area. If you want to play wargames, there's great models available far cheaper without an expensive rules ecosystem. If you want to paint there are as good hobby resources cheaper, and vastly superior artist products for the same price as GW. GW is a brand, and you pay a premium for a buy-in to it and its associated perks. If you want to play wargames without worrying about player base, product availability, continous product service and developments etc they're unrivalled. So GW are already elite. That's not a danger, its already a reality. The risks of + and the warscroll stuff is that it becomes impossible to engage with a hobby which requires an already considerable investment on the hobby front without also having to pay for access to the "Universe" of GW. At the beginning of 2020 it was possible to engage with GW products as a gamer without caring or investing in the lore if you wished. I think the aim of + is to make it impossible to be abreast of GW gaming trends and rules without also having to buy in to their wider ecosystem of lore, content, animations etc. Basically, it's the cost of 2.5 supplement books a year. It's a way of making gamers give them the revenue of supplements, ostensibly in return for content, but a lot of that is content gamers would never otherwise want. And then they'll have to buy the *actual* supplements to play the game. Basically, not become an "elite" but a superfan, or at least willing to pay as much as a superfan as the cost of entry to the wargaming.

I've maintianed 2 things pretty consistently about models in the hobby in my years in and out of wargaming: A) I hate making them B) GW Makes the best ones without exception Primarily I'm a painter now, I don't have much time for gaming and would much rather use it for paitining when time is limited, so very much coming at it from that perspective. Obviously if you like playing warhammer games you're tied into the models to a fairly non-Negotiable degree. But I have been amazed by the quality of some boardgame miniatures I bought recently, just for the purpose of painting. They were designed by Adrian Smith and Mike McVey, who were absolutley key figures in the Warhammer aesthetic mid-late 90s. The details are crisp to the point that they make a lot of my GW stuff feel like Duplo. More to the point, I got about 60 of them at about £2 per model, and an entire board game on top of it all. And I don't have to stick them together. The more I've looked into similar items, the more I've realised that there are an increasing number of companies able to offer sculpts which either rival GW models in quality for slightly less price, or are slightly inferior but available by the absolute job load for an equivalent amount . Basically, they are my first real engagement with the possibilities of modern technology and miniature production outside of GW (not even going to touch on 3d printing) , and it's radically altered me perspective on the vale of and approach to GW models. I get why some people like models as kits, it's not for me but I get it. But I guess aside from the modelling possibilities (which, compared to about ten years ago, are dramaticlly reduced witout consierable modelling skills, even stuff like simple head swaps etc are far more complex) I had always thought it was the only way to create quality. I now realise this isn't true at all. But also, I can't help but feel, especially given the monopose nature of a lot of modern GW stuff, that it would make the hobby even more accessible to at least have some single casts. Do you think this could be the case in the near future? It's not new, of course. This was exactly where the hobby started, single sculpts, and a lot of the designers of those classic figures are still designing things as whole, single piece master casts. When i was just getting into GW, multi part sculpts were the new hotness but very much the exception. In some ways the current situation feels pretty counter-intuitive with GW, increasingly you have multi part kits which for most people end up being built into one or two monopose variations. The selling point with the multi kits was customisation and variation. I'm aware typing this that multiple other wargame producers have followed suit with the multi part kits too and that it's not just as GW thing. It's just quite interesting to me, I'd always assumed that the new Computer design process was synonymous with weird kit assembly requirements, but apparently not. Just thought it would be an interesting conversation. For me as a painter who basically approaches model making with a combination of fear and disgust, to the point that I now pay a friend to do it for me when able, the dawn of/return to excellent single piece sculpts is very exciting, what do others think?

To be fair to GW, * they * don't push it as competitive. Not at all. Competitive minded players want GW to see their games equivalent to MTG etc, but GW manifestly don't. Their investment on a competitive game infrastructure and development compared to their investment in lore and models is utterly miniscule. And they're just getting richer by the day, so clearly that approach is working just now

Pretty sure ES are done in that sense, they were marketed as being part of the Necroquake fallout, which Teclis has since sorted out. I think that was sort of short hand for "less random magic now". Also they were marketed initially as "cinematic representations" at the start of AOS 2.0 and I think envisioned as the next big thing by GW. But clearly it hasn't had the take up they were expecting.

Not something I ever tested but the idea of just using warscrolls really appealed to me for a really lite wargame. Most of the rules that makes AOS more interesting than that are the stuff in the BT's, but they're also the same stuff that makes it at times unwieldy, bloated and gimmicky. Making an army that was literally just the sum of its parts- spearman do this, archets do this, wizard does this etc- without any further rules gubbins would have been quite enjoyable I think Ah well