dmorley21

Just wanted to give a quick shout that I the latest Cubic Shenanigans podcast, one of the hosts talks through his 5 games at NashCon with a Nighthaunt list featuring Big Drogg.

The model did get slight improvements, now debuffing enemy units and not models. In addition, it's bracketing got slightly better. I don't think it's unplayable or a flat out don't take the way something like Glaivewrath Stalkers are, but at 300 points you have to have a clear plan for it. I could see it as part of a moving castle/deathball as it does have 2" reach and could reach over a 32mm or two rows of 25mm. I'd want to buddy it up with a Krulghast (5+ ward gives it survivability) and Spirit Torment. I know Tyler Mengel plans on running multiples of them at a tournament I'll be at as well in October, so I'll be curious to see how that build does. It's not something I'm personally excited about though, as I already run an elite list and don't see where it would fit for me. I'll second that I haven't seen too many people putting the Mourngul into Soulblight, or seeing it in too many lists doing well at tournaments in the US/CAN/UK. I have a local guy who does it from time to time, but that's all I know of. I'm not so sure - there really wasn't anything I expected to get changed from the battletome. I had hoped they might add "Warmaster" to Olynder at least in the Emerald Host, but alas.

The Mourngul is now legal and 300 points.

Yeah, that seems to be it. I was so married to playing aggressively coming out of the underworld and fishing for Wave of Terror; I just need to really in my mind tell myself I have to play differently. So I used the extra cairn wraith to be the champion in a unit of Hexwraiths, as I had trouble identifying the champion of the unit and champions are more important now. I also used my regular Cairn Wraith model I had (as I'll never use in this edition unless it gets new rules) as a champion for another unit of Hexwraiths. You can probably pick them out in the image I've attached.

So after only losing and then reading/listening to success stories people have had with Nighthaunt in 3rd edition, I retailored my list to the following: Emerald Host Lady Olynder (general, Soul Cage) / Mannfred / Guardian of Souls (Spirit Drain) / Spirit Torment (PotFW) / Krulghast (Midnight Tome / Shademist) 30 Grimghast Reapers / 5 Hexwraiths / 5 Hexwraiths / 10 Dreadscythe Harridans Mortalis Terminexus And then I went and won a game against the new Stormcast (well an army based on the Dominion units)! Some thoughts: 30 Reapers supported by the Krulghast (5+ ward), Spirit Torment, Guardian of Souls (spell), and Lady Olynder (command ability) proved to be a major tank. They definitely suffered on turns when I didn't have a command point to give them All Out Attack - I feel that's necessary to really unlock their offense. I had imagined running Olynder in the midst of the Reapers as my moving castle, but ended up putting her and the Hexwraiths on the other side of the support heroes, which created two bubbles for me. I was also able to keep everything in range pretty easily that way (one unit of Hexwraiths kept slipping in and out of bubbles). Mannfred unlocked a lot for me. His warscroll spell in conjunction with the Mortalis, and Lady Olynder's abilities, allowed me to deal out a decent amount of mortal wounds. He also allowed me to easily score the battle tactic Monstrous Takeover and was able to just be a presence on his own, unsupported. He can also literally be anywhere he wants and has enough offense to take on strong units (though I wouldn't run him into true offensive powerhouses). Overall, I was very pleased. I only own 10 Chainrasp Horde, and don't feel like collecting more for a horde in Reikenor's subfaction, so I feel locked into Emerald Host. The Hexwraiths I find much more lacking in this edition, but they do keep Olynder alive so that she can dish out some offense. I don't know that I'm in love with the list, and would be open to more tweaks, but I do like what it's got going on after one game. I also only put the Harridans in the underworld, which was weird. But without Cogs and/or Death Riders, I just find deep striking to be a lot more limiting. And I do miss the Black Coach and to a lesser extent Reikenor - both more so visually than what they actually brought to the table. I'm looking forward to getting in more games with this list soon!

As someone who chose Lumineth as a second army after Nighthaunt… yes, this is true.

Yeah the ideal death star / battle ball / moving castle composition will be very meta dependent I think. I thought about what you mentioned above, then realized it will have pretty much zero game against the many Sons of Behemat lists in my area as it won't take down Megas and the Megas will outscore me on objectives. Otherwise though, I do have to say it's a great anvil.

Thanks @CaptainSoup and @EnixLHQ for the podcast. It was a great listen and I found it a bit recharging after losing four games with NH in AoS 3.0 and switching my focus to my Lumineth. I did want to bring up a couple things: Sotek was calling his list a death star, but that's not quite right, as his "death star" is a combo of the Chainrasps/Reapers/Olynder/Kurdoss all doing damage with buffs from the other heroes. I'd best describe as an aggressive mobile castle. He mentioned some weaknesses. One specifically that he didn't mention is Sons of Behemat. I've been on the receiving end of their impact hits on the charge hitting multiple units in a castle and it's not fun. Plus, then they're big monsters with a limited base size for you to swing at. Overall though it was great, and provided a lot of food for thought.

This has been my experience too. 7 out of 10 getting in. It's why Reapers got a hypothetical buff - though I've had trouble with them too as there aren't as many hordes running around now.

As someone who was drawn to LRL as a second army due to the different types of playstyles, I found it interesting after listening to The Honest Wargamer's stats show this past Monday that there were 3 very different LRL lists that did really well this past weekend, all at least going 4-1. The other two were at Mancurain Carnage and were: Helon Sevireth / Windmage / Calligrave 15 Windchargers / 30 Wardens / 10 Sentinels 10 Sentinels / 10 Sentinels Warlord / Hunters in the Heartland / Spell Enhancement Spellportal and Syar Teclis / Lord Regent 10 Wardens / 10 Wardens / 20 Sentinels / 5 Dawnriders Starshard Ballista Spellportal Battle Regiment

This is cool to see! As for the lists, you can look up all of the lists at tabletop.to. Here's a direct link to his: TTT | Mike 'Ellarr' Chadderton - List (tabletop.to)

The knights were the main draw, but there were others as well. It was a more or less historical army set in a fantasy setting - so that in itself was rather neat. Very classic fantasy. They also played differently than any other army and the Lady of the Lake and weird relationship with Wood Elves led to them feeling shrouded in mystery. But I really think all of the WHFB armies had plenty of character. That was never the problem.

I'm not sure 6 months is realistic. I think there will only be the three announced books in 2021 (Stormcast, Orruk Warclans, and the Chaos one). They typically don't realease a lot of books during the calendar year after the new edition (just Beasts of Chaos with 2.0). There will probably be two in the January/February timeframe, but I could realistically see a lot of books leapfrogging Nighthaunt due to the lack of need for new models. While we're one of the books most in need of new rules, I'd argue that the likes of Nurgle, Beasts of Chaos, Idoneth, and OBR leapfrog us. In terms of age, Nurgle and Idoneth leapfrog us. In terms of models... most armies leapfrog us, which is why I'd expect Nighthaunt's release alongside another faction with a bigger model update. Anyway, I'd guess winter if we're lucky. But I'd think sometime in 2022 would be fair.

It’s silly to be angry about Kruleboyz when the books were designed at least 4 years apart for a different rule set. I think it makes more sense to look at recent books to make educated guesses about where a new Nighthaunt book will go. Army-wide frightful touch? Possible now that we’ve seen Kruleboyz. A spell or something similar granting mortals on a 5+? Based on LRL, it could happen. Dropping opponent bravery by 2 if they’re facing two or more units of ghosts? Soulblight does that, so very possible. I’m curious to see how deepstriking works with the new Stormcast book too, as that might give us clues for future rules. It’s also worth noting that there was some turnover in the rules writing department this spring, so it’ll be interesting to see if that shakes things up. I’d imagine these books get written about a year before they get released.

Yeah, I should have been clear. The bonus to charging helps with fishing for Wave of Terror by making it less likely that you will fail a charge if you re-roll it. Yeah, I tried two units of 5 but they just got wiped out too quickly.

This is great information, thanks for sharing! As for the cavalry bases... I rarely had success getting every model in a unit of 10 Hexwraiths able to attack in combat in 2.0. I didn't find that any worse except when fighting a single large model (you can't encircle an opponent entirely, which is lame cinematically), and in some instances found it easier to get more models into the fight thanks to the better pile in rules. I still think Reapers shine due to their 2" range. A unit of 20 Reapers will always outperform a unit of 20 Bladegheists or Harridans in my experience. In 10s, that's very different. I feel you on the mortal wounds, but I think Spirit Hosts have been hurt the worst due to coherency rules. I'd consider taking them in a unit of 9 to be an anvil supported by a Black Coach / Ruler of the Spirit Hosts / Emerald Lifeswarm / Rally; etc. But at this point, I just don't think you can rely on 9 to be an offensive threat. You're just not going to get enough of them into your target IMO. So this is something GW could have done a much better job clarifying, but the Leader for battalions does not need to be a general. It can be any hero of your choosing.

I've gotten some more test games in now, and have some thoughts. First off, I want to stress that these are very much test games and that this new ruleset has a lot going on and will take some practice (though I quite like it overall - but it's not an easy game to pick up). Anyway, some more thoughts: Nighthaunt can now do the death thing of bringing back models fairly well. All armies have access to Rally and Emerald Lifeswarm; but when that is combined with Ruler of the Spirit Hosts or Lady Olynder as general, a Black Coach, and the Guardian of Souls; it's not that difficult to replenish a unit anymore. Charging out of the underworlds is just gone as a strategy. Without the +2 from Chronomantic Cogs and/or Death Riders, it's just not a viable strategy. That being said, Chronomantic Cogs still has play. If you take enough casters (3+) and run Cogs, Emerald Lifeswarm, and a mortal wound nuke spell; it's a feasible strategy. And the +1 to charge ability doesn't hurt when fishing for Wave of Terror. Reikenor without an endless spell that you want to cast feels like a waste of points. Overall, I think Nighthaunt are slightly more competitive than they were last edition before Broken Realms: Be'Lakor, but weaker than the list I ran after that book. They don't rely on heroes as much anymore, and benefit from the new way of scoring for about half of the battleplans. Also, the new pile in rules pretty much make the new coherency rules a wash for us. I felt like I was able to get more of my Harridans and Hexwraiths into the battle then before, except when fighting just one large single base behemoth type of model. My Reapers didn't struggle last edition and don't struggle this edition with getting into combat. Final thought: The battleplan you play has a major effect on the game. With the new way of scoring, you're typically only fighting over one objective, with many not that protected and thus it's easy for Nighthaunt to use movement shenanigans to change the structure of the game. I've held units back until turn 3 in every game so far just because of the tactical advantage it was giving me. It allows our army to do more focus fire. The core of the list I've been running is: Emerald Host Battle Regiment Battlaion: Lady Olynder (general) Krulghast Excruciator Guardian of Souls or Reikenor or Dreadblade Harrow 20 Grimghast Reapers 20 Grimghast Reapers 10 Chainrasp Horde 10 Hexwraiths 10 Dreadscthe Harridans 1 Black Coach I've then been playing around the edges with a fourth hero, another small unit, and endless spells; and haven't settled on a definitive list.

Got my first test game of 3.0 and have to say... it's going to take a lot of reps to get it down well! Ended up only playing three turns because there was so much to learn, and definitely forgot to Redeploy a couple times when it would have made a big difference. At first blush, I will say: I like the new scoring system a lot. Played first blood, and only having to control two objectives was neat. Rally can be really swingy... and also don't leave a unit underpowered thinking it's no longer a threat. My example: I used rally to try to bring back some Grimghast Reapers, with 11 rolls. Brought back none. Meanwhile, I had left a unit of 5 Dawnriders with one horse left, and on the same turn that I brought back no Reapers the Lumineth player managed to bring back 3 Dawnriders. That was a major swing. Don't forget about redeploy! I did, and it cost me the game (granted, we only played 3 turns, but it would have made a huge difference as two units only just made the charge against a unit I could have redeployed). I really miss Cogs. I think I'll have to give the new version a spin, but really miss the 2" charge. It makes charging from the underworlds so much more difficult. Just one test game, and a lot more practice will be needed! Okay, wait, one more thing because it was just great and lucky: Lady Olynder managed to kill a Cathallar, Windmage, and 10 Wardens in a single turn. The heroes were at full strength too.

Yeah, Myrmourns are probably the biggest losers in the book this edition. There are other similar units that got hit like this in other books. Skywardens and Endrinriggers in KO can no longer go up to 12, meaning no Aethergold, for instance. One of those small things that it will take a new book to fix.

Gotcha. That’s a tough one. I really miss the old cogs. And I though you said you got WoT with the Reapers? That’s why I figured 5-8. Also, All Out Attack would have added some punch there - I’m guessing you used it elsewhere? Sturdy castles are definitely difficult to chew through, but glad you had some success in your second game.

@Landohammer What was the scenario/setup in your game against LRL? I'm surprised with PotFW you weren't able to get at them with your non Undworlds troops. I've found that unless Teclis gets his aura spell off, the Lumineth castle is easy to chew through. Even with what you were up against with your Reapers, you should have ended up dealing 5-8 wounds on average. Dealing only one stinks!

I still see both Emerald Host and Reikenor's Command being valid choices. The -1 Save part of Emerald Host is useful with so many heroic monsters running around. And keeping a general alive is quite important, as it grants you an extra command point (Reikenor's Command features two generals though) but also makes the Slay the Warlord battle tactic tougher to achieve. It's a slam dunk for our opponents to take outside of Emerald Host, but with Emerald Host you can make them think twice... and anytime Nighthaunt players can get their opponents to think twice, it's well worth it. A couple other things I've thought of or seen worth discussing: Warhammer Weekly was really high on the Mortalis Terminexus endless spell on this week's episode. I'd been too busy hoping it would change to be like the old Cogs to really notice, but it is a rather nice mortal wound bomb, especially against armies that like to castle. I think our army has two grand strategies that work for us - the battleline one (Hold the Line) and the one where you have to claim more terrain than your opponent (Predator's Domain). I see the latter one being the better right now, due to the army's ability to go where it wants. Two Mournguls is useful for both the Monstrous Takeover and Savage Spearhead battle tactics. Being relatively small bases (for a monster) that you can deepstrike almost guarantees getting these battle tactics. I saw two because they'll claim 3 VPs with Savage Spearhead. The trick with the Mournguls is keeping them alive so you don't sacrifice VPs, which if I ran them I'd try to buddy them up with a Krulghast to give them the 5+ Ward.

It’ll take some actual games, but I see Nighthaunt as being pretty much in the same spot as they’ve been.

@anorek I run a similar list with Olynder in Emerlad Host. A few things: First, I’ll second that Bladegheists are better in 10s than 20s. I always tried running small groups of Hexwraiths so Olynder’s command ability could work on multiple units but in gaming have found that the unit of 5 gets deleted too quickly to be effective bodyguards. A unit of 10 serves me a lot better for that purpose, even with it being inefficient for attacking. Fianlly, I think you need another hammer unit. Luckily, just going 10 and 5 Hexes and 10 and 10 Blades should do the trick.

It’s in their actual battletome.