Carnith

@swarmofseals to be clear, I am not suggesting that only Hedonite models should be the only units allowed in our army, just that if that was the case, our points are more justified then. 150 point myrmadesh make more sense when only when our units deal damage or take damage for depravity and get double taps, and only hedonite heroes can summon, but this is simply not the case. So to remedy this, our units should likely only cost a bit more, but definitely not 40-50 points more than their slave equivalents for the ability to double hit anywhere.

But the points are already a factor. When you take away everything that is unique to a hedonites model from our AA, it's just double hits and access to two CA for units that might not even be taken, and I agree then that should be the factor. Summoning can happen for all slaves to darkness models too. That's why I said an increase of points would be reasonable if it was tied purely to Hedonites in some way. When people talk about just disregarding some units in favor of cheap battleline elsewhere and still get access to depravity, then something is wrong. I'll concede that maybe slickblades suggestion was a little too low. 180-190 but they also run away due to low bravery with nothing really able to keep up with them besides the keeper to keep them from running.

So for our units, the idea of summoning being baked in is baloney. It's an army mechanic attached to all units in the game, whether its hedonite or not (The case might've been made for this if a hedonite model took damage or delivered damaged this turn). So the only thing our mortals are really getting over slaves to darkness is our double taps, which 2 of our units don't even get access to. For my suggested points, this is where I'd go. Archers 120-140, they are still paper thin and we do have access to other forms of shooting. Slaangors 90-100 Myrmadesh 120 (these guys are just Chaos warriors +. a 60 point increase for their abilities is absurd. Symbaresh 150 Seeker archers are 160 Slickblades should be around 170. Lord of Pain and Shard Speaker should go down to 120 (their counterparts are both 110 in Slaves, with the chaos lord giving double pile in and chaos lord giving reroll all saves, hits, and wounds, though the shardspeaker does have a defensive buff and an ability to hurt the enemy though short range). Sigvald is not worth more than eltharion and should be around 220. Glutos seems fine with all of his buffs that he brings to the table. I don't think any warscroll is truly terrible, just that their points don't reflect it.

What is Glutos doing in this list? Or is he just for the casting? Cause some of his buffs are locked to Mortal Hedonite.

Ain't that the truth. Like I've seen "this unit literally wins the entire game" to "nothing is good at all". It's boggling. Like honestly, points are the thing. 20-30 down nearly everywhere, and it's good. I thought of some of the math and the whole "our units summon! that's why we're expensive!" doesn't add up for me anymore. Every unit summons and contributes to that. So what from our AA do our units uniquely get that can't be gained by bringing in slaves? Locus and double taps on 6's, and that doesn't feel like an appropriate cost increase. Listening to HeyWoah go over the battle tome, a lot of his commentary is "good warscroll... should be 160? 200?! Oh nevermind" Glutos, Shalaxi, and Masque were on his list of units points and theme appropriately.

You either got posts of how "its the best book ever" to "its utter trash" with some people having no nuance at all.

Man Hedonite facebook is a wild place to be

Yeah Slaangors aren't great. Talking with @Chaos Shepard IRL, I hope your book fixes them... cause yikes...

Wheels got updated to not effect Slaanesh units.

Well remember, they also decided to nerf us initially from an outcry of people. We deserved SOME of the nerfs, but not nearly all that we were given. The book now is very fair.

No one is planning to do nothing. The suggestion is play a few games and test how it all feels. If you feel your games are just horribly imbalanced and you can't possible ever win with a mixed army, then go ahead. Slaangors are probably the only thing in the book that need a points adjustment. Also, I think that our hedonite units are points increased due to summoning might be a poor excuse when people are just passing on our warriors for chaos warriors due to just being bodies to get depravity.

6 man fiends i think are very attractive. They can go over big targets, and now make sense as an anvil with their -1 to hit and wound.

Its only a distraction to people who don't read the ability. It's like the evocators ability where the dice rolled is dependent on the number of slaangor. If they were horde busters with how people think it's read, they would be well worth their points.

I wish the lord of pain could keep up with them seekers. Really feeling the lack of lord on seeker.

So thinking of the 40 archer list. Keeper of secrets General Lord of Pain 2 Shard Speakers 11 archers 11 archers 22 archers at this point there is 410 points left in the list. I'm thinking either 6 fiends + wheels of pain 10 slickblades or 10 twinsouls the twins leave 70 points in the list. Thoughts?

I can easily seeing a lot of mortals come down 10-20 points in time. Just going to be rough waiting for the next faq since I doubt we are getting anything in ghb.

Fiends still have 20 points to go until their pre-battletome cost, but if everything is 20 points extra cause of nu-summoning then they are probably where they will be at. It'll be hard to take old hellstriders in our lists I think. they just don't chaff as well as you'd want and don't do any damage. If they were 2 attacks with their weapon maybe. but spending 140 points on 15 attacks is eh. Also, while I'm still confused on lack of special rule for the twin soul whip, blissbarb seekers have poisoned weapons due to the seeker venom... why not give seekers mw on 6's to wound since it is literally licking them with their poisoned tongue.

Old seeker battalion is going to be good for seeker heavy lists. The 6" pile in is good. I was thinking about what to do with Dark Carnival. Maybe Lurid Haze? So the base of this list would be LoP shard speaker shard speaker Archers Archers Bigger blob of archers (22-33) Battalion The archers outflank due to Lurid Haze can you use them to double shoot and harass. This is atleast 1250 if you go 22 archers. But thats still over 100 bow shots a turn. Also thinking old battalions, since we aren't moving towards only heroes, we could think about normie exalted chariots in epicurean revellers with some daemonettes. Exalted chariots still have a lot of attacks, and with a keeper with them, them double pilling in is a fair bit chance of mortal wounds.

There is a lot right with this book... and some really bizarre steps. Slaangors? What happened there? My BoC friend is saying he'd rather play bulls than them. The 20 point different in archers is also an issue for nearly twice the wounds? Something doesn't seem right. Archers feel like they have to go in the shoot twice battalion, but its 3 5 wound heroes, which never bodes well. Also symbaresh, the dude has a whip and there are zero rules for the whip? Seekers are pretty decent with both having a place. I'd rather spend the extra points for archer seekers to go hold an objective and ping some unit for depravity. Slickblades with some neat double pile in might be good as well with epitome stopping enemies from attacking her until she's attack. Not fixing some issues with the daemons, but actually nerfing them and keeping them the same points feels bad. Epitome only rerolls her casting, not dispelling or unbinding. Enrapturess up in points but nothing with depravity anymore. Keeper nerf. Weird syll'esske change where he only again buffs mortals but you need demons near as well. If they increased the points cost of everything because of summoning (which we already had to begin with) then why not just make it harder to summon and keep points of what we plan to take lower? I know pre-order day is tomorrow for me... but I'm on the struggle bus here with actually wanting to buy a lot of things. I'll have to play with some list ideas before I commit. The high prices on both kit and points in game add to the difficulty.

Its all units taking damage and survivng through battle shock. Someone who inflicts damage onto themselves such as ogor caster would actually give us a depravity I think. But, my google translate skills could be bad and hopefully tomorrow they actually talk about whats happening.

Sigvald's attacks cannot be negated like Drakkfoot bonesplittaz, which means they still only do a max 3 damage to morathi. HGB cannot save against him, but Gotrek will also decrease all damage to one.

Our 6 to hit ability is untouched. Locus changed to stop pile in. Depravity is gained by units being damaged but not being slain at the end of battleshock.

Depravity change is rather close to what I was suggesting! So I'm pretty happy about that. Locus change is also interesting.

leaks from an itallian battletome.

Well we are about 24 hours away from new zealand pre-order which will we will find out most of our mortals do. Man readeth the book in hopefully 36 away to paint a clearer picture. Now I know for warcry stuff before the units were announced, they told reviewers to skip Slaanesh, so hopefully people pick up the book to talk about the chances. Ash from GMG tends to read most things word for word, so that's nice, but I'll watch miniwargaming if I gotta to hear some changes, though I know they won't talk much at all about actual rules written. I was hoping we weren't orktobered, but we got our models in time, we just didn't get the hype to go with it. There was plenty to write, and they decided not to write it.