HollowHills

I agree about idoneth warscrolls. It's interesting that the two big armies released as brand new for AoS, other than stormcast, kharadron and idoneth both struggle with their core design. I suspect that both these armies will need to wait for their second book before becoming more stable across their range. I also believe idoneth suffered by releasing just before aos 2, so they don't quite fit the rules philosophy of either edition.

Actually this is all based on my own experience playing deepkin. I've never actually used more than 6 morsarr in a game. I've played with large units of thralls and used both types of eidolon. I have had moderate success on a local level, for instance winning a small tournament, using mixed idoneth lists. However, I am very much aware of where the army struggles against those at the cutting edge.

Following on from idoneth discussion in the rumour thread. The main issue for Idoneth is that right now to be competitive you have to take eels. You can either do this in a reverse tide build or a deepstrike king and eel build. This is less to do with the fact that eels are really strong, although they are good, and more that everything else in the army is weak. If you compare an eidolon (either type) with similar units. For example Treelord ancient / durthu or any of thee verminlords. The eidolon comes off very poorly for its cost, even considering all the book rules avaliable to respective armies. The shark and Leviadon are both low damage for the points cost with underwhelming abilities. For example, the cover bonus sounds good but you're an army that wants to be charging. It would benefit thralls most, but it's hard to get them in range due to their large base sizes. Thralls and reavers are struggling. Reavers mainly because shooting in general is fairly poor at the moment. Thralls main issue is that the 5 up save means they get wiped off the board unless they attack first, but the wholly within limits of support abilities stops you taking them in units of 30 to offset the poor save. They also struggle with bravery. Lastly, the elephant in the room, 32mm bases are very punishing. Lotann is... I don't even know what lotann is. Probably my favourite model in aos with some of the worst rules in the world. Anyway all this combines to basically lead me to state that eels should probably be higher points, with everything else much lower.

Basically agree. 10 points isn't enough to stop the eel meta and other units (levi / eidolon / shaerk) probably needed 40 to 60 point reductions. I was personally hoping we'd see morsarr at the 200 mark and those massive drops come elsewhere. Lotann should legitimately be about 50 points. Part of me wonders if they are just accepting the non-eel lists just don't work rules wise for idoneth and waiting for a new book.

So I played a few small 500 points games today using the new sylvaneth rules. These games were also against relatively new players. Obviously this is not representative of a competitive environment but some observations to share. My list Winterleaf Arch Revenant - heart is ice / frozen kernal. Spite revenant x 20 Kurnoth with swords x 3 500 points. Game 1 and 2 played FEC Blisterskin He was using crypt flyers 2 x 3 and an infernal crypt courtier. I made a little line of spites and flew the rev into a Wyldwood nearby. Kurnoth popped up in the wood. He got turn 2 and charged into the woods. Activated his unit fighting the kurnoth who did 1 wound vs a 3 up rerolling failed. Fought twice with that unit but they failed to do any damage the second time. Spite revs attacked next, no buffs on them (I had fired them onto kurnoth). I got 11 in range, they managed to get 24 successful wound rolls through which was sufficient to kill the three enemies. Kurnoth went next, more than comfortably killed the three crypt flyers and then used the second pile in to kill the infernal. The second game was fairly similar. Game 3 vs gloomspite. He had 20 squigs, 10 bounders and a fungoid. I got into a tank spot with the woods and he charged. Killed 6 spites with the mortal wounds from bounders, then activated squigs into kurnoths who tanked it like a boss. Spites were in a small spot so didn't get many in, but they killed 4 bounders, then only suffered another 4 loses from bounders. Kurnoths (again buffed) smashed the squigs. Battleshock then brutalised the remaining gloomspite units off the table. Anyway, general observation is that kurnoths are very effective and spite revs can put out incredible damage now. Winterleaf is pretty great. Main concern is our mobility is quite weak. I enjoyed using the spite revs but they are definitely dying if they get hit by anything half decent.

This thread is everything and nothing. It started as rumours of course, but what is has become is so much more. I dreamed I was a butterfly and when I awoke, I wondered if I was a butterfly dreaming that I was a rumour thread. It's too late to stop it now. The bell has rung.

That sounds like it could potentially break things a bit. What is the use of a unit that gives you rerolls when you can just buy that? I know people will say because it costs a command point, but it does potentially devalue already underused units.

Well it should be you grog! *foams at mouth*.

I don't think it would work to be honest, or necessarily be good for the game. If you think about your average player who enjoys matched play and the hobby side of things, it takes awhile to build an army. A fully painted 2k to a decent standard might take near enough a full year to complete. Especially with a job, family and other obligations. If points were to change on more regular basis then people could see their WIP armies go all over the place. You need to have a sense of how long a specific army list will be valid for when you buy it. Realistically, I think it would only benefit tournament players chasing the meta to have updates on a very regular basis. The fundamental issue at the moment is powercreep, which they could theoretically stop any time they like. For instance when idoneth came out they had the first "always fight first" rule. This was very powerful but countered by the fact the army was balanced to be very weak in sustained combat. Your opponent knew it would only be for one turn and could plan around it. Now you have FEC and Slaanesh with very easy access to "always fights first". Armies which very clearly outshine deepkin even with an eel list. How anyone even thought skaven hordes with immunity to battleshock, 3 or more attacks each, hit and wound buffs and an ability to pile in when attacked would work out well is beyond me. Some of the points costs are absurd as well. Thankfully, it looks like Khorne and Sylvaneth are a bit more balanced.

Did they delete the video? I haven't been able to watch it.

This is quite a cool idea. Thanks for that and the rest of your post too.

Thanks for the input everyone, some really good comments. I think what I am taking from the combined thoughts of everyone who has replied is this: I need to be more assertive and actively challenge, even if it does result in some conflict. Ultimately, it's on myself and others to make it clear this behaviour isn't acceptable and ensure it's stamped out. (I say myself and others as we are those who tend to organise events etc).

I wanted to question the wider community on dealing with toxic players, as recently (the last 6 to 8 months) one in particular has shown up. Prior to this individual turning up we had a small, but dedicated, local AoS community who generally all got on. Not that we were all best friends, but there was always respect and a common honesty for following the rules. Then person X arrived. Immediately I got bad vibes but I thought it might be down to awkwardness. They presented in quite an untidy and socially unaware way, seemed to have limited life away from warhammer and mentioned anxiety. Again though being "weird" is not a crime. So with the benefit of the doubt I tried to be friendly and welcoming. Cue the first game. It was the single most unpleasant experience in gaming I had ever had. Horde units on square bases, pile ins that were meant to be 3' but went to 7', dice rolling without declaration and all sorts of other bad behaviour. Fast forward to now and despite the fact person X insists on coming to the local every week, their behaviour is just as bad. I had to play them in a local tournament and it genuinely put me off the hobby for a month. It's made worse by the fact they seem to enjoy taking competitive lists and then cheating on top. Several others have now got to the same point and we all refuse to play this person. But, with the local group being small, we are still forced to associate / may be drawn in local tournaments etc. We have all tried to call person X out on their behaviour but they refuse to change. They respond extremely badly to any critique no matter how friendly and take it all as a personal attack. They seem to use personal issues with anxiety and the fact they are "transgender" as a shield. (note I only mention this as it relates to the issue of getting their wargaming behaviour to change, please no politics). I'm so sick of dealing with this person and it's already impacted my hobby enjoyment. I don't want to get to the point where I lash out verbally. Has anyone got any advice or experience in dealing with similar situations? How did you find your zen?

I did say some of the kits are very dated... https://i0.wp.com/www.warroomgaming.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/99120217003_SkeletonHorsemenNEW01.jpg https://www.dhresource.com/0x0s/f2-albu-g9-M00-43-E7-rBVaWFw5UESAXMB7AAI1YkuL_wk266.jpg/metal-models-tomb-kings-bone-giant-.jpg https://www.westernvalleymodels.co.uk/games-workshop-warhammer-tomb-kings-skeleton-warriors-94-06-3169-p.asp

I doubt we would get Tomb Kings as in a re-release of the old sets. Most of those old kits look pretty dated and they certainly don't stand up to the recent quality of releases. I'm also not convinced that "skeletons but different" is what they would want to go for with a death release either. If there is any credence to these rumours I suspect what people are calling "new Tomb Kings" will be an army that bears some resemblance to old Tomb Kings, perhaps a death army with an ancient or antiquated style, but entirely new. Just like the rumour of "cthulthu elves" was for deepkin, but when deepkin came out they were quite different to what people had imagined from the rumours.

I can't speak for other factions, but those points would only do the following for the idoneth. 1) The eel meta / competitive King + soulscryer build dies out. You'd have to take 10 x 3 thralls as a tax which would make the list too weak. Otherwise take 3 x 3 ishlaen, which at 140 you wouldn't want and 160 you definitely don't want. 2) the points decreases elsewhere don't help, because mixed idoneth was weak already and will stay weak. The points changes just sort of cancel each other out. So your 2k mixed list basically is the same. 3) thralls and reavers haven't dropped enough to make such a list anymore viable than it is now. 4) the only viable list basically becomes reverse tide Fuethan which uses thralls for battleline and eels to charge. Maybe you fit an eidolon in there.

Looks like a load of ****** to me.

Nagash has a load of elf souls he has gotten from Slaanesh. New army are undead elves with the Slaanesh keyword, but death. After that the idoneth endless spells will release 100%.

There are a few undersea races that we haven't seen any art for, presumably because they are unlikely to be models. GW are unlikely to have two undersea armies I think. Kelpdar are meant to be sentient and afraid of the idoneth, there is another group afraid of the idoneth also. There are beastmen of chaos who have sea creature bodies to some extent. Also lots of huge sea creatures and monsters who occasionally attack. Some of which are presumably large enough to threaten settlements. It also seems to be implied that daemons of chaos can manifest in the sea. So lore wise idoneth have a few threats, but generally they seem to be pretty dominant. The main threat is not having enough souls or losing too many on raids.

Gud 1 m8 Point is birds have feet because they land on the ground / trees, idoneth have noses because they still go above water.

Why do birds have feet when they live in the sky?

Look at that sassy pose from the Idoneth. Less like Akhelian King, more like Yass Queen.

Darkoath chieftain, darkoath war queen and godsworn hunt. Also arguably archaon and the varanguard, who though lacking the StD keyword, are chaos undivided.

New battletomes in the works for every grand alliance, plus preview seminar must equal new death army.

I wonder if this is the most off topic we've ever been... Anyway, GW business model over the last few years seems to be built on hype. Generally they announce the next big release for a game then continue to hype this until it releases. The cycle then repeats with the next Announcement. Presumably the fear is that announcing another battletome would dilute sylvaneth sales before that product even releases.