High Aelves Help

[axisandallies]

Hello! I'm looking to start a High Aelves army. Other than the Spire of Dawn contents, what other units are feasible? Do I need to mix in Wood Aelves? Any help would be appreciated.

[chord]

Probably most of the obvious ones... Dragons, Loremaster, Phoenix Guard, Annointed on Phoenix.  More reavers (they are highly mobile generic battleline)

[axisandallies]

Probably most of the obvious ones... Dragons, Loremaster, Phoenix Guard, Annointed on Phoenix.  More reavers (they are highly mobile generic battleline)

I am hoping I can find most of these. I also wonder if new Aelves are coming up soon, also.


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[swarmofseals]

5 hours ago, chord said:

Probably most of the obvious ones... Dragons, Loremaster, Phoenix Guard, Annointed on Phoenix.  More reavers (they are highly mobile generic battleline)

I don't think the dragons are anything to write home about. Loremaster is a great support caster if you have a big bad monster in your army, can't disagree there! Phoenix Guard are decent but expensive. They basically function a lot like Chaos Warriors. I didn't like Reavers at first but have since come around. Their points per wound is on the high side, especially considering their poor defense, but they are among the fastest units in the game and can put out a respectable number of shots. I wouldn't go hugely overboard on these guys, but having some around is definitely nice. 

The Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix is definitely one of the best High Aelf warscrolls. It has respectable offense and excellent speed and defense for its cost. It also provides a nice debuff that can help your other units out. Flamespyre Phoenix is currently terrible because you have to pay the points cost again if you manage to bring it back from the dead.

Aside from those, there are a couple of units that stand out to me. The highest risk/highest reward one imo is the Lothern Sea-Helm. He's cheap but has a couple of very powerful abilities. He provides a to-wound bonus to nearby highborn and his command ability is incredibly good. You really want him to be your general, but he's a 5 wound support hero with little defense. He's like to get blasted off the table quickly in a lot of matchups. If he survives for even a few turns though he will be worth his weight in gold.

High Aelf Archers are solid and a bit underrated imo. They take some work, but they can put out a ton of wounds. They kinda suck against heavy armor, but any lightly armored target will get shredded by a big unit of these supported by a Sea-Helm. Their once-per-game double volley combined with the Sea-Helm's command ability puts out an absurd number of wounds. 

Repeater Bolt Throwers are decent and have a very long range. Again, they really benefit from the support of a Sea-Helm. If you are facing a lot of long ranged shooting though these will get picked off pretty easily.

 

I think there are a couple of good ways to play High Aelves. The Spire of Dawn battalion is a nice starting point, although I do have something of a dislike for Spireguard. I may be underrating them though. A big unit supported by a Sea-Helm and firing twice per turn using the battalion ability could do a lot of work, and they stand up better to shooting than regular archers.

I think there are two natural directions to go with HE. One is to play a defensive, counterpunchy type army using your strong shooting to dictate the flow of battle and then using your fast units to intercept threats. The other is to play a very fast, offensive army that de-emphasizes static firepower for a ton of mobility. Both can work well, I think. Do you have a sense of what playstyle appeals to you?

1 hour ago, axisandallies said:

I am hoping I can find most of these. I also wonder if new Aelves are coming up soon, also.


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There have been rumors of new Aelves for a while, but it's very hard to tell what they will be like. Some have suggested they will be Death Aelves and not even be in the Order alliance, others have said it will be more of a nautical/cthulhu-esque theme playing more off the Dark Aelves. There's also some evidence for stuff that plays off what used to be High Aelves, but it's unclear how soon any of this will show up. It's also hard to say how much the new stuff will synergize with the current stuff. In the Chaos GA, allegiances tend to be pretty open because of the way the marks of the gods work. You can do mixed daemon/mortal armies no problem, so the new stuff tends to work with the old. In GA Destruction, mixed lists are popular because the GA Destruction rules are strong and the allegiance stuff from the Destruction factions that have come out so far are relatively weak. Order, on the other hand, has tended to push out factions that operate relatively independently. There are mixed order armies for sure, but in general Stormcasts want to be Stormcast only, Sylvaneth wants to be Sylvaneth only (with some small exceptions), and Kharadon certainly looks to be stronger as pure Kharadon rather than mixing with, say, the old dwarves or Fyreslayers (I could be wrong about this). Maybe if Aelves are the next Order faction they will work nicely with the older stuff, or maybe they will be totally independent. Aesthetically, if you are drawn to the High Aelves you may or may not like whatever comes out next.

 

I'd say that if you like what is currently out there, go for it. It's not going to be a top tier army, but I think High Aelves can be perfectly serviceable in all but the most nasty metagames. If the current aesthetic isn't really doing it for you and you feel on the fence about it, maybe wait a couple of months and see if we get any clarity on what the new Aelves might be (and when we might see them). I'd say it's pretty likely we'll know more by the Autumn at the very least. 

[axisandallies]

There have been rumors of new Aelves for a while, but it's very hard to tell what they will be like. Some have suggested they will be Death Aelves and not even be in the Order alliance, others have said it will be more of a nautical/cthulhu-esque theme playing more off the Dark Aelves. There's also some evidence for stuff that plays off what used to be High Aelves, but it's unclear how soon any of this will show up. It's also hard to say how much the new stuff will synergize with the current stuff. In the Chaos GA, allegiances tend to be pretty open because of the way the marks of the gods work. You can do mixed daemon/mortal armies no problem, so the new stuff tends to work with the old. In GA Destruction, mixed lists are popular because the GA Destruction rules are strong and the allegiance stuff from the Destruction factions that have come out so far are relatively weak. Order, on the other hand, has tended to push out factions that operate relatively independently. There are mixed order armies for sure, but in general Stormcasts want to be Stormcast only, Sylvaneth wants to be Sylvaneth only (with some small exceptions), and Kharadon certainly looks to be stronger as pure Kharadon rather than mixing with, say, the old dwarves or Fyreslayers (I could be wrong about this). Maybe if Aelves are the next Order faction they will work nicely with the older stuff, or maybe they will be totally independent. Aesthetically, if you are drawn to the High Aelves you may or may not like whatever comes out next.
 
I'd say that if you like what is currently out there, go for it. It's not going to be a top tier army, but I think High Aelves can be perfectly serviceable in all but the most nasty metagames. If the current aesthetic isn't really doing it for you and you feel on the fence about it, maybe wait a couple of months and see if we get any clarity on what the new Aelves might be (and when we might see them). I'd say it's pretty likely we'll know more by the Autumn at the very least. 

I love the current aesthetic. I would want to play a hit and run army. I guess that's move of defensive. Hitting hard with archers and retreating into terrain for cover bonuses; and hardy screeners. Is that possible?


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[Aesir22]

From the few games I have had with my aelves, once you get the swordmasters into the fight they are lethal. Not keen on spireguard, they have only served as cannon fodder so far. Ellyrion reavers are lethal and fast. From what i heard phoenix guard are also pretty awesome. 

 

The mage in spire of dawn doesnt seem that great. I swapped him out for a loremaster. I also got a couple of waywatchers (sylv) they are pretty cool. 

 

The high warden can be good. He died pretty fast against storm fiends in one of my games, but destroyed a big fat chaos dragon and only took two wounds. 

 

What you expand with depends what kind of player you wanna be. If you like to whittle the enemy down before combat get reavers. Or extra sword masters if you want to kick a$$ in melee. Aelves usually have good magic so look at some mages. 

[chord]

15 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I don't think the dragons are anything to write home about. Loremaster is a great support caster if you have a big bad monster in your army, can't disagree there!

No Dragon?    The Dragon is the big bad you can use the loremaster with.  Plus the dragon has the dragon fire which is an autohit that can do up to D6 mortal wounds. 14 wounds, etc.

[Mayple]

3 hours ago, axisandallies said:

I love the current aesthetic. I would want to play a hit and run army. I guess that's move of defensive. Hitting hard with archers and retreating into terrain for cover bonuses; and hardy screeners. Is that possible?


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Swifthawk agents got you covered order draconis also hits like a truck (at the speed of light)

Underrated armies, for sure.

[swarmofseals]

3 hours ago, chord said:

No Dragon?    The Dragon is the big bad you can use the loremaster with.  Plus the dragon has the dragon fire which is an autohit that can do up to D6 mortal wounds. 14 wounds, etc.

Didn't say the dragons are bad, just that they don't particularly stand out in terms of efficiency. Compare the Frostheart Phoenix to the Dragonlord. Frosty averages 8.89 rend 1 damage while the Dragonlord averages 7.56 rend 1 damage (a bit more if using the lance and charging) plus 4.375 rend 2 damage. It's a bit hard to quantify the value of rend in an expedient manner, so let's just call rend 2 damage 20% better than rend 1. That's at least in the right ballpark. That leaves us with 12.81 for the Dragonlord and 8.89 for the Phoenix. When you factor in the cost of 400 for the Dragonlord and 260 for the Phoenix, you end up with 31.23 points per damage from the Dragon and 29.24 for the Phoenix. Now the Dragon also has his breath weapon, which averages another 2.16 mortal wounds for a nice bonus (but only on your turn). Additionally, the Dragon benefits from its own command ability nicely (although it's a bit redundant if you are using a loremaster), so overall I'd call it a win for the Dragon but not by a huge margin or anything. If you have multiple dragons working in tandem, using warhorns and the command ability then yeah, I could see the offense getting quite nasty there.

In speed, the phoenix is a bit faster.

Defensively, the dragon starts with a save of one better (and rerolls to saves, but only if foregoing the horn) and an additional 2 wounds. The phoenix gets better armor when spells are cast nearby and has a 4++ ward save. So basically the phoenix has 24 wounds compared to the dragon's 14. The dragon gets an edge in armor if you use the shield, but otherwise I'd say the phoenix is about equal on that front. So that's 10.83 points per wound for the phoenix and 28.57 for the dragon.

Add on top of that the wound debuff aura that the phoenix gives off and you can see why I say that the Frostheart Phoenix is a more efficient choice, particularly in an environment where characters and monsters get targeted by so much ranged fire. The dragon is maybe 25% more efficient on offense while the phoenix is nearly three times more efficient on defense. 

 

Anyway, this shouldn't stop you from fielding a Dragonlord if you want to! It's a very powerful model and can hang with stuff like the Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, Dreadlord on Black Dragon etc. I certainly don't mean to say that the choice isn't viable... just that it's pretty "average" for what it is. 

 

My thinking is similar for other choices that people are touting, like Swordmasters. Yes, they are good in melee but they also cost 20 points each for 1 wound and decent but unspectacular defense. 

[axisandallies]

Didn't say the dragons are bad, just that they don't particularly stand out in terms of efficiency. Compare the Frostheart Phoenix to the Dragonlord. Frosty averages 8.89 rend 1 damage while the Dragonlord averages 7.56 rend 1 damage (a bit more if using the lance and charging) plus 4.375 rend 2 damage. It's a bit hard to quantify the value of rend in an expedient manner, so let's just call rend 2 damage 20% better than rend 1. That's at least in the right ballpark. That leaves us with 12.81 for the Dragonlord and 8.89 for the Phoenix. When you factor in the cost of 400 for the Dragonlord and 260 for the Phoenix, you end up with 31.23 points per damage from the Dragon and 29.24 for the Phoenix. Now the Dragon also has his breath weapon, which averages another 2.16 mortal wounds for a nice bonus (but only on your turn). Additionally, the Dragon benefits from its own command ability nicely (although it's a bit redundant if you are using a loremaster), so overall I'd call it a win for the Dragon but not by a huge margin or anything. If you have multiple dragons working in tandem, using warhorns and the command ability then yeah, I could see the offense getting quite nasty there.
In speed, the phoenix is a bit faster.
Defensively, the dragon starts with a save of one better (and rerolls to saves, but only if foregoing the horn) and an additional 2 wounds. The phoenix gets better armor when spells are cast nearby and has a 4++ ward save. So basically the phoenix has 24 wounds compared to the dragon's 14. The dragon gets an edge in armor if you use the shield, but otherwise I'd say the phoenix is about equal on that front. So that's 10.83 points per wound for the phoenix and 28.57 for the dragon.
Add on top of that the wound debuff aura that the phoenix gives off and you can see why I say that the Frostheart Phoenix is a more efficient choice, particularly in an environment where characters and monsters get targeted by so much ranged fire. The dragon is maybe 25% more efficient on offense while the phoenix is nearly three times more efficient on defense. 
 
Anyway, this shouldn't stop you from fielding a Dragonlord if you want to! It's a very powerful model and can hang with stuff like the Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, Dreadlord on Black Dragon etc. I certainly don't mean to say that the choice isn't viable... just that it's pretty "average" for what it is. 
 
My thinking is similar for other choices that people are touting, like Swordmasters. Yes, they are good in melee but they also cost 20 points each for 1 wound and decent but unspectacular defense. 

Thank you for this analysis. Some things to think about! Gotta get the phoenix for sure.


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[aquietfrog]

If you plan to use the dawnspire battalion as the core of your army, bring a skywarden to buff all units with the swifthawk agents keyword

 

[axisandallies]

If you plan to use the dawnspire battalion as the core of your army, bring a skywarden to buff all units with the swifthawk agents keyword
 

Looks like you can't get high aelves archers anymore. What are the best options for straight archer units? Are the artillery good to get ?


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[aquietfrog]

Reavers provide enough shooting that you wont really need archers.  Get three units of them so your battleline requirements are filled despite whatever other high aelf factions. Shadow warriors also provide great shooting but are quite overcosted.

If the repeater bolt thrower is still available, it's also a good source of shooting with rend, but will die quite easily when facing other long range shooting.

[swarmofseals]

1 hour ago, axisandallies said:

Looks like you can't get high aelves archers anymore. What are the best options for straight archer units? Are the artillery good to get ?


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You can, just not directly from GW. You might be able to find them in some stores if you are lucky, and you can certainly get them secondhand on bartertown, ebay, /r/miniswap or similar. Same goes for the bolt thrower.

 

EDIT: Also, I agree with @aquietfrog about the Skywarden. He's like a Lothern Sea-Helm in the sense that he provides a nice buff to wound. He doesn't have the same command ability, unfortunately, but his command ability is also potentially strong.

[swarmofseals]

One more thing that I forgot to mention earlier: if you are OK with using non-GW models, there are some fantastic substitutes out there particularly if you live in the EU. 

Gamezone: http://www.gamezoneminiatures.com/tienda/en/46-elves

I really like Gamezone's products for a number of factions. Their elf Veteran Archers make great substitutes for the classic GW ones, although they are metal and can get a little pricey for a large unit. I was lucky and got mine on deep discount. Their Elf Lancers are also really nice and look great when deployed in a square formation. this kit is a fantastic value. Their bolt thrower is quite nice too.