Empire Gunline List

[ltpliskin]

Cheers guys.

Me and my friend are aiming for 1,500 points armies as a starting point. Hes going ironjawz.

My new list is:
Freeguild general
20xhandgunner(x3)
10xguard(x2)
Hurricanes
Mortar
Cannon

Which all totals to a nice 1,500.

I've attached what I think my order of battle will look like. I imagine the battle Will be decided on whether I can kill most of the ironjawz before they can reach my line.

Key question is whether if my handguns are 2 inches behind my guard they all get a free shot and if so does that shot take place before the orcs get an attack in? That could feasibly mean that the orcs charge and are then killed before attacking which would give my guard another round before they are sent to meet their maker.

Excited to get this battle tested.

Aiming to bring some cav in when my army is bumped up to 2,000 points.

What do you guys think? Any flaws?

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[arka0415]

35 minutes ago, ltpliskin said:

I've attached what I think my order of battle will look like. I imagine the battle Will be decided on whether I can kill most of the ironjawz before they can reach my line.

Key question is whether if my handguns are 2 inches behind my guard they all get a free shot and if so does that shot take place before the orcs get an attack in? That could feasibly mean that the orcs charge and are then killed before attacking which would give my guard another round before they are sent to meet their maker.

Your list looks like a good start- abusive numbers of Handgunners, a General, and a Hurricanum. This list looks a lot like mine, and if this is your first shot at list-building, you're off to a great start. Here's the suggestions I would make:

First, the Mortar is a very weak artillery option, sadly. You'd be better off with almost any other weapon, but since there might be more things to add to your list, just drop it for the time being.

Second, your 3x20 Handgunners are great! Given that a unit can split fire any way it wants in AoS, there's not much reason to run 2x30 instead though. You do get 1 fewer Long Rifle... your call. Place them 1" behind your swordsmen, just for safety, and be sure not to leave any gaps in the melee screen.

Third, and speaking of melee, you might not have enough swordsmen. Your 2x10 Swordsmen can stretch out to cover about 40" of tabletop, but even just a little shooting will start making holes in your line that the orcs can charge right through. You may want to increase the number of Swordsmen in your army, as it may be difficult for 20 Guard to adequately protect 60 Handgunners. Since we removed the Mortar, let's add another group of 10 Swordsmen.

You have 60pts left, so feel free to add a Witch Hunter or Gryph-Hound or some other adequately-small unit!

[ltpliskin]

1 hour ago, arka0415 said:

Your list looks like a good start- abusive numbers of Handgunners, a General, and a Hurricanum. This list looks a lot like mine, and if this is your first shot at list-building, you're off to a great start. Here's the suggestions I would make:

First, the Mortar is a very weak artillery option, sadly. You'd be better off with almost any other weapon, but since there might be more things to add to your list, just drop it for the time being.

Second, your 3x20 Handgunners are great! Given that a unit can split fire any way it wants in AoS, there's not much reason to run 2x30 instead though. You do get 1 fewer Long Rifle... your call. Place them 1" behind your swordsmen, just for safety, and be sure not to leave any gaps in the melee screen.

Third, and speaking of melee, you might not have enough swordsmen. Your 2x10 Swordsmen can stretch out to cover about 40" of tabletop, but even just a little shooting will start making holes in your line that the orcs can charge right through. You may want to increase the number of Swordsmen in your army, as it may be difficult for 20 Guard to adequately protect 60 Handgunners. Since we removed the Mortar, let's add another group of 10 Swordsmen.

You have 60pts left, so feel free to add a Witch Hunter or Gryph-Hound or some other adequately-small unit!

Glad to hear I'm on the right track! 

I've tried to make the list as geared towards stopping an Ironjawz force as possible so it is a bit lopsided towards ranged to maximise the pain I can deal out before they break through the frontline. As far as I know Ironjawz only ranged unit is a dragon with a 8' attack so not expecting too much ranged which could punch through the auxiliary front line. For the same reason I'm probably going to go with a repeater rather than long-rifle.

I take the point that extra melee screening could be useful, could it be worthwhile swapping the mortar out for a volley gun instead?

I had a look at the Witch Hunter and for 60 points that is a really strong unit!

 

I'm imagining the battle will go into 3 stages which will be the initial rush for the orcs to hit my screen at which point my handgunners will get a free shot.

Then my handgunners will move back 5 inches to take up position in front of my arty (They should still get a 2+ shot due to hurricanum despite moving) and will then fire until the orcs break the screen at which point they'll get a free volley when the orcs make contact with them.

At this point either there is either enough room for another withdrawal and fire (Depending on how far my arty are placed away) or the handgunners will fight and die around the artillery pieces and general.

 

When I build the extra 500pts for a 2000pt list I'll make it more adaptable with some cav on the flanks for objective capturing and maybe one or two hero type units.

 

 

[arka0415]

On 2017/5/15 at 11:30 PM, ltpliskin said:

As far as I know Ironjawz only ranged unit is a dragon with a 8' attack so not expecting too much ranged which could punch through the auxiliary front line. For the same reason I'm probably going to go with a repeater rather than long-rifle.

I take the point that extra melee screening could be useful, could it be worthwhile swapping the mortar out for a volley gun instead?

I had a look at the Witch Hunter and for 60 points that is a really strong unit!

...

Then my handgunners will move back 5 inches to take up position in front of my arty (They should still get a 2+ shot due to hurricanum despite moving) and will then fire until the orcs break the screen at which point they'll get a free volley when the orcs make contact with them.

Regardless of the range the Long Rifle will do more damage than the Repeater. You'd need to be very lucky with the D3 roll for the Repeater to outperform. I'd still go with them.

Melee screening would be a good addition, I think. A Volley Gun is stronger than a Mortar, but it can jam in the worst of times. It's only a 1/6 chance of jamming, but, that can cause issues. Given your Hurricanum an elf Bolt Thrower might be a better pick, but that's not Empire.

The Witch Hunter is a fantastic hero for 60pts... however, as far as heroes go he's quite weak. Use him to hunt down enemy combat wizards or take objectives in Three Places of Power, but otherwise he is no combat monster. Even a mediocre combat squad will kill him.

Your last point, a squad of 20 moving Handgunners with Hurricanum support will hit on 3+ I think. 5+ base with +1 from the Hurricanum and +1 from the squad size.

[MrCharisma]

@ltpliskin in the spirit of securing objectives, I'm not sure you have enough to win certain missions. I'm not sure how you would handle a deep striking Stormcast, tunneling Fireslayers, special deployment Ripperdactals, etc (I think you get my point. You might not have enough Guard to hold up a Stonehorn or hero's to secure Three Places of Power. 

Drop the Mortar and reinvest into another Battlemage, specially take the Lifesurge spell to keep the Hurricanum healed. 

Consider taking the Phoenix Stone artifact for your Hurricanum, and Strategic Genius for your General. 

 

[arka0415]

22 minutes ago, MrCharisma said:

@ltpliskin in the spirit of securing objectives, I'm not sure you have enough to win certain missions. I'm not sure how you would handle a deep striking Stormcast, tunneling Fireslayers, special deployment Ripperdactals, etc (I think you get my point. You might not have enough Guard to hold up a Stonehorn or hero's to secure Three Places of Power. 

This is a big issue with pure Freeguild, certainly. Free Peoples in particular get access to loads of budget heroes, but we only have the General on Griffon if we want to really contest an objective in Three Places. A regular mounted general can claim things well if infantry clear it out for him, but at 5 wounds each all of our heroes can't exactly storm an objective by themselves.

[Trout]

14 hours ago, arka0415 said:

Regardless of the range the Long Rifle will do more damage than the Repeater. You'd need to be very lucky with the D3 roll for the Repeater to outperform. I'd still go with them.

I've put together a script that simulates all of the rolls 100,000 times and spits out the average number of wounds dealt against opponents of various saves. In this configuration (2 leaders with long rifles or with repeaters), assuming handgun volley and steady aim, the averages for both weapon types are exactly the same; going from 1.11 wounds against units with a save of 3 to 2.22 against units with a save of 6. So, on average they are identical. What I'm not taking into account yet is standard deviation. My guess is that while they both do the same amount of damage on average, the repeater is more consistent while the long rifle misses more often (because the long rifle always has only one chance to hit while the repeater has between 1 and 3). Since games only last a few rounds, consistency is very important. Thus I think the repeater is likely to be better at close range due to being more consistent. Having said that, you may get an extra attack or two off the long rifle because of the distance, making that the better option all around.

[arka0415]

10 hours ago, Trout said:

I've put together a script that simulates all of the rolls 100,000 times and spits out the average number of wounds dealt against opponents of various saves. In this configuration (2 leaders with long rifles or with repeaters), assuming handgun volley and steady aim, the averages for both weapon types are exactly the same

...

Since games only last a few rounds, consistency is very important. Thus I think the repeater is likely to be better at close range due to being more consistent. Having said that, you may get an extra attack or two off the long rifle because of the distance, making that the better option all around.

Wow, thank you very much!! That's a tricky question then... I guess it all comes down to your local meta. Given that the Long Rifle will (usually) be 2+/3+ I'm not worried about it missing, so the fact that it gets 1-2 more turns of shooting might sway it for me. The fact that the Repeater *can* get 3 damage is important though. A Repeater in a squad of 20 Handgunners with the General's "Hold the Line!" ability will be 2+/2+, and with 3 shots that's brutal.

[Trout]

8 hours ago, arka0415 said:

Wow, thank you very much!! That's a tricky question then... I guess it all comes down to your local meta. Given that the Long Rifle will (usually) be 2+/3+ I'm not worried about it missing, so the fact that it gets 1-2 more turns of shooting might sway it for me. The fact that the Repeater *can* get 3 damage is important though. A Repeater in a squad of 20 Handgunners with the General's "Hold the Line!" ability will be 2+/2+, and with 3 shots that's brutal.

Well, I play freeguild, so when someone brings something up that changes the way I think, I like to run the numbers and see if they are right.

 

You're saying the opposite of what I was originally thinking. It's not the consistency that makes it better but the chance of a big hit. So...maybe it's both. The repeater damages more consistently AND has a chance for big hits, but on average is identical to the long rifle.

 

I still think the range wins though. Even just one extra attack is a big deal when the two guns average identical numbers otherwise. Plus, that's more flexibility in who you can shoot at.

[arka0415]

26 minutes ago, Trout said:

Well, I play freeguild, so when someone brings something up that changes the way I think, I like to run the numbers and see if they are right.

 

You're saying the opposite of what I was originally thinking. It's not the consistency that makes it better but the chance of a big hit. So...maybe it's both. The repeater damages more consistently AND has a chance for big hits, but on average is identical to the long rifle.

 

I still think the range wins though. Even just one extra attack is a big deal when the two guns average identical numbers otherwise. Plus, that's more flexibility in who you can shoot at.

I like to run the numbers too, but I use a calculator and a sample size of 60... you go all the way man! I'm impressed.

I agree that consistency is important, but I'm too wedded to MathHammer to believe a D3 will roll anything other than a 2! There"s no such thing as low or high rolling!!  Joking aside though looking at your numbers the Repeater simply is the better option at short range. Given the great range we Freeguild get with Long Rifles, Cannons, etc., we tend to out-range everybody. Maybe the Repeater has a place then? But the fact that we can split-fire and kill artillery crews or combine the damage output of a few Long Rifles and knock out a Wizard on turn 1 is such a fantastic ability.

[Trout]

1 hour ago, arka0415 said:

I like to run the numbers too, but I use a calculator and a sample size of 60... you go all the way man! I'm impressed.

I agree that consistency is important, but I'm too wedded to MathHammer to believe a D3 will roll anything other than a 2! There"s no such thing as low or high rolling!!  Joking aside though looking at your numbers the Repeater simply is the better option at short range. Given the great range we Freeguild get with Long Rifles, Cannons, etc., we tend to out-range everybody. Maybe the Repeater has a place then? But the fact that we can split-fire and kill artillery crews or combine the damage output of a few Long Rifles and knock out a Wizard on turn 1 is such a fantastic ability.

Yeah, I had chosen to go with long rifles just because of the range while assuming that the repeater did more damage in short range. So, actually running the numbers makes the long rifle even more appealing than I initially thought. The repeater may have advantages in short range, but they are minor advantages based on standard deviation; on average they do exactly the same damage the long guns do.