Gryph Hound Usefulness

[Cerlin]

I have been playing a lot of sylvaneth and in general I am seeing the utility of units that can teleport around the map, especially against my shooty Free Peoples. 

My question is how can I best use a gryph hound? I got it with the Excelsior priest and I specifically was planning to use it to zone my Sylvaneth opponent so I can get a chance to shoot him.

The rule only lets my ranged units shoot if they are in 2d6 of the gryph hound, right? 

Also what experiences have y'all had with them? Are they worth the 40 points for matched play?

[Aezeal]

I think they are worth the 40 points but not worth breaking sylvaneth allegiance.

[Cerlin]

How are they for GAO to counter wildwood teleporting?

[Alexxk]

Your unit has to be within 2d6 of the gryph hound. While the appearing unit can be in 10". So one gryph hound should be enough to shield of 1 wyldwood consistent of 1 citdae, wood for sure; maybe 2 wood bases if you stand quite near them. (But then the sylvaneth cant teleport, right?)

 

What shooting are you palnning to use?

[Aezeal]

They might just accept the shots and try for the charge anyway ofc.

[RossMHoward]

They can be great for that reason, but additionally they're fast and can nip about capturing objectives in certain scenarios, once the teleporting is over. 

[Cerlin]

I am currently using 20 - 40 Handgunners and Artillery (Cannons, Organ Guns, Bolt thrower) as my ranged core. 

The hound gives one ranged attack, right? This does not include melee weapons? The rule seems somewhat ambiguous. 

[RossMHoward]

"Any unit within that many inches of the Gryph-Hounds is alerted to the enemy unit's presence, and can attack with one of its weapons as though it were the shooting phase." 

That's from the warscroll. From the main rules:

"In your shooting phase, you can shoot with models armed with missile weapons"

So by declaring you can attack with a weapon as though it were the shooting phase, you must then make your attacks following the rules for the shooting phase. 

 

Also that list sounds nasty as hell! I don't think you need the Gryph Hounds given that if you win a double turn there'll be very little left after all that firepower. 

Also if you're worried about people not setting up within range of your Gryph Hounds abilities it could be a lot worse. Your opponent could decide to set up on a whole other table and just play somebody else

[Mirage8112]

Advice from a Sylvaneth player: take the gryph hound.

You can't count on the double turn. There have been a few games where neither player gets one, and even if you do, there's no way to tell if it will be at a useful time.

Secondly some Sylvaneth battalions nearly guarantee a first turn charge. Careful positioning with a hound might make the difference between peeling a few wounds of Drycha before she crashes into your unit of hangunners and ruins your gunline.


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[Cerlin]

8 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Advice from a Sylvaneth player: take the gryph hound.

You can't count on the double turn. There have been a few games where neither player gets one, and even if you do, there's no way to tell if it will be at a useful time.

Secondly some Sylvaneth battalions nearly guarantee a first turn charge. Careful positioning with a hound might make the difference between peeling a few wounds of Drycha before she crashes into your unit of hangunners and ruins your gunline.


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Thanks for the answer. I have been having trouble with Sylvaneth teleporting and wild woods fighting. I should really just shoot 'em and let Sigmar sort it out. Getting an extra turn of shooting would be really nice. 

I only have one hound right now but I think I can find a place to put it in my army. I think I am playing Sylvaneth tomorrow. I will let y'all know how it worked out.

Would you put the hound say 3-5' in front of my gunline?

[Mirage8112]

Thanks for the answer. I have been having trouble with Sylvaneth teleporting and wild woods fighting. I should really just shoot 'em and let Sigmar sort it out. Getting an extra turn of shooting would be really nice. 
I only have one hound right now but I think I can find a place to put it in my army. I think I am playing Sylvaneth tomorrow. I will let y'all know how it worked out.
Would you put the hound say 3-5' in front of my gunline?

It depends on the wildwood placement, and the type of Sylvaneth army your facing.

If you're expecting a first turn charge, you'll likely see the wyldwoods strung out end-to-end lengthwise across the middle of the table. This basically gives a wood 33" long and around 9" deep. You need at least a 3" buffer between the wood and any of your units to prevent them getting attacked by the wood from spells. I would put the hound as close to the edge of the wood as possible, with your gunline behind, no closer than 4". Sylvaneth players can't set anything up closer than 9" from enemy units and have to set up completely within the wood. Gryph hounds go off within 10", so that only gives him 2" of wood to set up in unless he wants to try for the extra 1" and risk a (likely) double round of shooting (once from the hound, once from the regular shooting phase.) Ideally with a long shallow wood, you'd have two hounds, about 20" apart to cover the whole wood.

If the wood is deep but not long, the same applies but you'll have a pretty good idea where along the board he'll be, just not how far away. That is probably more ideal because you only need 1 hound to push him back enough to guarantee 1 round of shooting.




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[Cerlin]

A follow up question about death, If I am fighting an army that has the banner (such as Skeleton Warriors) that lets them regenerate, these units count as newly set up models and I can shoot them, right?

[Nico]

Good thinking. It may depend on whether it says that a unit setting up is the trigger or the trigger is models being set up.

[Aezeal]

Rule says it's about setting up units.

[MrCharisma]

On 11/1/2016 at 1:55 AM, Cerlin said:

I am currently using 20 - 40 Handgunners and Artillery (Cannons, Organ Guns, Bolt thrower) as my ranged core. 

The hound gives one ranged attack, right? This does not include melee weapons? The rule seems somewhat ambiguous. 

 

Did you ever try this @Cerlin . I'm revisiting my Free Guild list for an upcoming tournament and considering a similar approach with my crossbowmen. I'm anticipating that the cannons will be often out of range.

Also, is there any way of buffing the 2d6 that anyone has found?

[MrCharisma]

On 11/6/2016 at 2:35 PM, Cerlin said:

A follow up question about death, If I am fighting an army that has the banner (such as Skeleton Warriors) that lets them regenerate, these units count as newly set up models and I can shoot them, right?

 

My interpretation is that it wouldn't count.

If it was a newly summoned unit, I would say yes. If they are regenerating an existing units,  I would say no.

[Nico]

Quote

Sylvaneth players can't set anything up closer than 9" from enemy units and have to set up completely within the wood. 

The second part of this is wrong - it's all the models within 3 inches of the Wyldwood.

[Cerlin]

I have found the utility of the gryph hound in non-tourney play; having him in your kit forces your opponent to rethink teleporting/transporting heavily. The chance of having 50+ shots into your teleporting unit forces him to be conservative even if the actual effect of the hound would be minimal.  For shooting armies I'd recommend picking up an unpacked Excelsior Warpriest + hound on Ebay for 10 dollars. For that price it is worth it to have the threat. 

[Mirage8112]

Sylvaneth players can't set anything up closer than 9" from enemy units and have to set up completely within the wood. 

The second part of this is wrong - it's all the models within 3 inches of the Wyldwood.


Technically that's true, but if your brining on anything other than a monster, most Sylvaneth players will opt to have them in the wood for the cover bonus.


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[Aezeal]

On ‎24‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 10:02 PM, Mirage8112 said:

The second part of this is wrong - it's all the models within 3 inches of the Wyldwood.


Technically that's true, but if your brining on anything other than a monster, most Sylvaneth players will opt to have them in the wood for the cover bonus.


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Not really.. they'll set up 9" from the enemy as far outside the woods as possible if they want a charge, or move to an objective.

[Mirage8112]

A smart player will drop his woods directly on on objective so he/she can hold it for a turn and get the save when enemy tries to take it.

If you are teleporting and counting on making a 9" charge you're probably doing it wrong. (unless you're playing a dreadwood/freespirits battalion, in which case you'll get an extra move anyway so it shouldn't be an issue)


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[Aezeal]

True but the range on the woodplacing spells isn't that long and in my last game 3 of the 4 objective where in or on a pre-placed piece of terrain and you'll have to stay away from that too.

[Mirage8112]

That's unusual to be sure. Pre-set terrain or cheeky opponent?

Even so, remember we get a 1" space between the 3 section that make up a single wildwood, and it's easy enough to surround a piece of scenery that's holding an objective and still keep an 1" away from the terrains' edge. I've used that tactic with the numinous occulum, Dragonfate Dais, Ophidian archway and Dreadstone blight without any problems or conflicts. Plus, if you surround terrain with a wood, you could feasibly teleport into the terrain holding the objective (the 1" buffer gives you 2" to set everything up and if you manage to surround the scenery evenly, you might even be able to put any pain in the center 3" away from a wood edge). That way, you still get a cover save while forcing your opponent to charge through the wood and risk losing models, (which is the other benefit of not leaving the wood after teleporting.)

As for ability range, verdant blessing has a range of 18" and if it's cast by a character wearing the silverwood circlet, that's an extra 6" on top of that. 24" plus the natural 32" range of the wood (strung out with 1" between sections) gives plenty of reach to surround objectives embedded in existing terrain. The acorn of the ages is next best, with a 5" range from the caster and a 32" wood reach. It requires a bit more forethought, but if you're playing border war, take and hold, blood and glory, or escalation that's enough range to drop a wood and encircle a piece of scenery before the enemy can get to it. 

The TLA's silent communion ability is the only one where that would be problematic (each wood within 15" of the caster). But because it's a 4+ roll, I almost never rely on that ability to get woods down. If it fails, its unlikely you'll be able to get it off next turn in a useful way because its the only "wood summoning" ability that requires a 3" buffer between existing units (oddly enough not terrain). By turn 2 on, that becomes more and more difficult to position in a useful way at all as models start clogging up the spots where a forest would be useful and the 15" limit really hurts you. So really, if your relying on the TLA for your woods; you're doing it wrong. 

[Aezeal]

6 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

That's unusual to be sure. Pre-set terrain or cheeky opponent?

Even so, remember we get a 1" space between the 3 section that make up a single wildwood, and it's easy enough to surround a piece of scenery that's holding an objective and still keep an 1" away from the terrains' edge. I've used that tactic with the numinous occulum, Dragonfate Dais, Ophidian archway and Dreadstone blight without any problems or conflicts. Plus, if you surround terrain with a wood, you could feasibly teleport into the terrain holding the objective (the 1" buffer gives you 2" to set everything up and if you manage to surround the scenery evenly, you might even be able to put any pain in the center 3" away from a wood edge). That way, you still get a cover save while forcing your opponent to charge through the wood and risk losing models, (which is the other benefit of not leaving the wood after teleporting.)

As for ability range, verdant blessing has a range of 18" and if it's cast by a character wearing the silverwood circlet, that's an extra 6" on top of that. 24" plus the natural 32" range of the wood (strung out with 1" between sections) gives plenty of reach to surround objectives embedded in existing terrain. The acorn of the ages is next best, with a 5" range from the caster and a 32" wood reach. It requires a bit more forethought, but if you're playing border war, take and hold, blood and glory, or escalation that's enough range to drop a wood and encircle a piece of scenery before the enemy can get to it. 

The TLA's silent communion ability is the only one where that would be problematic (each wood within 15" of the caster). But because it's a 4+ roll, I almost never rely on that ability to get woods down. If it fails, its unlikely you'll be able to get it off next turn in a useful way because its the only "wood summoning" ability that requires a 3" buffer between existing units (oddly enough not terrain). By turn 2 on, that becomes more and more difficult to position in a useful way at all as models start clogging up the spots where a forest would be useful and the 15" limit really hurts you. So really, if your relying on the TLA for your woods; you're doing it wrong. 

Nah I actually set most of it up myself but a largish terrain piece in a 1/6th of the board (largish like garden of more etc) just ends up covering a lot of that 1/6 th

 

I usually set my given forest in the middle so I can place my dryads there as a strong tarpit. (I play gnarlwood so no alpha strike stuff for me). Then I keep space for 2 forest in my deployment zone (at least near an objective) where I'll acorn them. The rest I'll see where there is room. If enemy has turn 1 then getting forests near their lines will be almost impossible.

[MrCharisma]

I need to learn more about the forest teleportation to understand how the Gryph-hound would help. Anyone willing to share the rule fundamentals (who, how, when, what)?