Treelord Lash and Tangle ability...does an enemy unit get to Pile-In at the end of the turn?

[Lord Krungharr]

Been a heated debate on my local Discord about this.  Many seem to think that if a Treelord scores a hit activating Lash and Tangle, that an enemy unit would not get to pile-in at the end of the turn, because nobody can pile-in if not in the Fight Phase.  And some even seem to think that the end of the turn is somehow not part of the turn.

I however, and maybe a couple other people, DO think the enemy unit gets to pile-in at the end of that turn, because of a few reasons.  1) The Treelord ability says just that.  2) Other certain abilities, like the Ironjawz one and the Khorne Blood Tithe I think allow Hero Phase pile-ins if in range of an enemy unit.  3) I can't find anywhere that specifies a pile-in only can happen in the Fight Phase.  4) While beginning or end of the turn is not a phrase I found in the rulebook at my cursory glance, beginning or end of the phase is spelled out as part of that phase, just before or after everything else in the phase happens.....thus we can deduce/infer? that beginning or end of a turn is indeed part of that turn (just like the end of my rope is part of my rope!)

I'm fine with either way but just really strikes me as obvious that yes the enemy piles-in at the end of the turn, which is even after Battleshock.

What say ye, fellow members of The Grand Alliance? 

[Mattrulesok]

So to make it clearer because you seem to have missed my point.

 

If effected by this ability you do not pile in at all. "Until the end of the turn" is how long the effect lasts, it is not moving the action to a different part of the turn.

 

"Until the end of the turn" is used on multiple rules and abilities to determine the length of time the specific effect lasts. It is a measurement of time and it's ridiculous to think that this single rules is somehow different.

 

Also I never once suggested that the end of turn means the turn is over per se. There is still some housekeeping and the occasional ability that can take effect but the end of the turn is still the end of the turn, it's the last part before the start of the next turn and therefore a great place for abilities to end. The fact you decided I don't know the end of turn exists is a weird misreading of what I wrote and is concerning because you are severely misreading this rule as well.

Edit: Added to this your logic would suggest the Kruleboyz Nasty Hex spell means opponent move their ward rolls to the end of the turn but what happens between their? I do damage, you remove models and at the end of the turn you roll wards and bring models back?

 

Same with Seraphons Celestial harmony, do you think it moves battleshock tests to the start of your next hero phase? So a unit could conceivably roll 3 stored battleshock rolls in a hero phase?

 

You're reading it wrong, you cant pile in during the end of turn unless you have an ability that lets you but this doesn't. It's a simple rule that prevents you pileing in, that's all.

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Mattrulesok

[Mattrulesok]

Edit. Misread question 

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Are you suggesting because the ability prevents pile in during combat that the units move their pile in to the end of the turn?

Edited September 2, 2022 by Mattrulesok

[Lord Krungharr]

21 minutes ago, Mattrulesok said:

Edit. Misread question 

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Are you suggesting because the ability prevents pile in during combat that the units move their pile in to the end of the turn?

Yes I am.  The ability says cannot pile-in until the end of the turn, it doesn't say that can't pile-in period.  This suggests that they can.  And because we know pile-ins can happen in other phases, why not the end of the turn as the ability suggests? (which would be in the Battleshock Phase I suppose).  

Since RAW is unclear, as pile-in is not limited to the Fight Phase, I tend to ask RAI, do they want units to potentially be never able to pile-in vs a Treelord?  Which is very possible due to its Tree Stomp monster action to make a unit strike last.  So 30 Clanrats for example with maybe 2 in base to base with a Treelord, Treestomp, fight last, Treelord hits, never be able to pile-in, rat turn, STOMP, fight last, never pile-in if Treelord hits, so on and so on.  Doesn't seem like that's what GW intended to me.  

[Mattrulesok]

That seems like the wrong reading to me.

You can't pile in until the end of the turn means you are unable to make pile in moves, once the game state has moved onto the end of the turn effected units are once again able to pile in when able. End of the turn is how long the effect lasts, it's a qualifier used across the entire game. Almost all buffs and debuffs say X unit is buffed/debuffed until end of turn/next hero phase, end of phase etc. Why would this be the only ability that acts differently to this phrasing?

So RAW seems pretty clear, they have a set convention for the effect than the length of time the effect lasts.

RAI is not a great way to measure anything but to me the rules are clearly designed to work together so I would say it's definitely RAI but who care what randoms think the intention is.

 

Either way the unit effected cannot pile in that turn, at the end of the turn the debuffs turns off and the effected unit is able to pile in during combat next turn or during any other phase it has the ability to do so.

[Lord Krungharr]

RAW I agree is clearer than unclear, as the Treelord ability itself mentions the unit not being able to pile-in until the end of the turn, which implies that they can right?  Why say that if they cannot pile-in?

The fact that it happens at the end of the turn doesn't mean it doesn't happen.   You also seem to be saying that the end of the turn means the turn is over.  That is incorrect and a misconception by many folks.  The End of the Turn is part of the turn after EVERYTHING ELSE happens (emphasis mine)....this can be inferred by the very definition of the Beginning/End of a Phase in the Core Rules, which has the definition I've inferred for End of the Turn.  So if something happens at the beginning or end of a turn, just like if it happens at the beginning or end of a phase, it DOES happen, it doesn't not happen because the beginning/end of a phase does not exist.

But if I missed somewhere that says Pile-Ins can only happen in the Hero Phase or Fight Phase, that would convince me otherwise.

I emailed the GW AOS FAQ about it.  Hopefully it'll get addressed soon.