Can you score the Beast Master Grand Strategy using a wizard you turned into a MONSTER?

[yukishiro1]

Beast Master says you score it if "there are any MONSTERS from your starting army on the battlefield."

If you have a wizard cast Metamorphosis on turn 5 to turn itself (or another hero) into a MONSTER, and that unit survives the battle, do you score Beast Master if that unit is your only MONSTER? It's a starting unit from your army, and it's a MONSTER at the time the game ends, so that would seem to qualify? (Yes, I know that in most cases it'd be better to just pick Prized Sorcery instead - but there are certain lists where Beast Master would be the better choice if this works b/c you're taking other MONSTERS.) The definition of "starting armies" doesn't seem to really help here. 

Just checking to see if this was answered somewhere I couldn't find, or what peoples' thoughts are? 

 

 

[Marcvs]

I would lean for no, cause it wouldn't be a MONSTER "from your starting army"

[yukishiro1]

Well, I guess that's the question - it's a MONSTER at the time the check happens, and it's a unit from your starting army. Is that enough to make it a "MONSTER from your starting army" or does it have to have the MONSTER keyword before the game starts to qualify for that? I see your point but I also see the point that it's a unit from your starting army and it's a MONSTER. 

 

[Dogmantra]

For what its worth, this is what the GHB says about starting armies, on pg 14:

Quote

Several grand strategies and battle tactics refer to a player's 'starting army'. A player's starting army is made up of the units in the army that were set up before the first battle round, including any reserve units. Units that are added to a player's army after the battle has begun are not included, and neither are units that have been destroyed and subsequently returned to play.

From this it does seem to me that you would be able to score by using the metamorphosis spell just because this clarification doesn't say anything about checking the state of the unit at the start of the game.

I realised also that I have naturally been using this interpretation in a different way -- Evocators are wizards only when they have 2+ models in the unit. It seems plain and reasonable to me that you cannot score Prized Sorcery with only a single evocator model and no other wizards.

[yukishiro1]

That's an interesting point re: units that are WIZARDS conditionally. I do think we'd all agree that if it isn't a WIZARD any more at the end of the game because it no longer meets the requirements, it can't be used to score Prized Sorcery. I'm not sure that necessarily means the opposite is true - that it is ok that it isn't a MONSTER at the start as long as it is at the end - but it certainly seems to suggest that to me as well.

FWIW I also took another careful look at both Metamorphosis and the MONSTER section of the Core Rules. 21.0 says: "A unit with the MONSTER keyword on its warscroll is a MONSTER." And Metamorphosis says: "That HERO gains the MONSTER keyword until your next hero phase." Again while not conclusive, to me this makes it seem like there is no real rules distinction between a "real" MONSTER and a HERO that's been turned into one later - the HERO isn't just "treated" as a MONSTER or can act "as if" it was a MONSTER, it actually has the keyword added to its warscroll. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by yukishiro1

[Painbringer]

No, you can’t. This model was not a monster at the moment it was added to your army. It became a monster later (after the keyword was added) and became able to do things like Rampages, but it does not count as a scoring unit in this case. A model from your starting army that becomes a monster later and a monster from your starting army are not the same things. As the rules state: “A player's starting army is made up of the units in the army that were set up before the first battle round” - this model did not have a MONSTER keyword at that time, so it cannot fulfill this requirement.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Painbringer

[yukishiro1]

20 minutes ago, Painbringer said:

 A model from your starting army that becomes a monster later and a monster from your starting army are not the same things. 

The rule you quoted doesn't say that, though, or say anything about keywords needing to be there before the game starts. That's a gloss you added. All that rule talks about is what counts as a starting unit from your army. It distinguishes between units that are in your starting army and units that are not, not between units with keywords before the game starts vs those that gain them later. 

Is it from your starting army? Yes, that's what the rule confirms. Is it a MONSTER? Yes, that's what the core rules and the spell say. So doesn't that mean it's quite literally a (1) MONSTER (2) from your starting army? I mean like do you really think the answer would change if the wording was: "if there are any units from your starting army on the battlefield that are MONSTERS?" I guess it's possible. 

Maybe the answer is that there is no real answer because both readings are plausible and it just needs a FAQ.

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by yukishiro1

[Painbringer]

5 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

The rule you quoted doesn't say that, though, or say anything about keywords needing to be there before the game starts. That's a gloss you added. All that rule talks about is what counts as a starting unit from your army. It distinguishes between units that are in your starting army and units that are not, not between units with keywords before the game starts vs those that gain them later. 

Is it from your starting army? Yes, that's what the rule confirms. Is it a MONSTER? Yes, that's what the core rules and the spell say. So doesn't that mean it's quite literally a (1) MONSTER (2) from your starting army? I mean like do you really think the answer would change if the wording was: "if there are any units from your starting army on the battlefield that are MONSTERS?" I guess it's possible. 

Maybe the answer is that there is no real answer because both readings are plausible and it just needs a FAQ.

 

 

 

For me, the wording is clear: monster from your starting army is a very precise term. If you did not have any monsters before the game started/after the setup - you simply have no monsters from your starting army. It does not matter if one of your units becomes a monster later - the requirement is clear (at least to me).  If there is anything that can happen before the first battle round that can satisfy this condition (for example, an ability or artifact that would turn your hero to a monster, then yes - you would have a monster from your starting army. Otherwise, you don't have one, regardless what happens later. 

I am not saying that what you described does not make sense - it does and I believe that a lot of people probably play that way. In games I played, there was a  similar situation with Monstrous Takeover battle tactic, that uses the same wording (monster from your starting army). In a group that I play with, the general consensus was you cannot use Metamorphosis for scoring that tactic, for the reasons I listed above (however, you could still deny it to your opponent). Maybe both readings are plausible until there's an official statement confirming this, as you say. 
 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Painbringer

[Dogmantra]

6 hours ago, Painbringer said:

In games I played, there was a  similar situation with Monstrous Takeover battle tactic, that uses the same wording (monster from your starting army). In a group that I play with, the general consensus was you cannot use Metamorphosis for scoring that tactic, for the reasons I listed above (however, you could still deny it to your opponent). Maybe both readings are plausible until there's an official statement confirming this, as you say. 
 

This is different because the battle tactic Monstrous Takeover requires you to pick a monster from your starting army when you choose it. Since it happens at the start of your hero phase before you have cast spells but after any previous metamorphoses have worn off, so any unit that doesn't inherently have the Monster keyword is never going to have it from metamorphosis at the time you choose the battle tactic.

Beast Master as a grand strategy has no such requirements to choose a monster at the start of the game.

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, Monstrous Takeover unambiguously doesn't work because at the time you select it there's no possible way for the unit to be a MONSTER, because you can only cast the spell to make it one after you select, and it wears off before you select. So the question never comes up in the first place.

The other battle tactics, the ones that give a bonus point, you can definitely get the bonus point with a Metamorphosized HERO. But the wording on those is admittedly slightly different - it first says "starting unit," then "if that unit is a MONSTER, you get a bonus." It seems unlikely to me they meant for there to be a rules distinction between "starting unit from your army that is a MONSTER" and "MONSTER from your starting army" but I suppose it's possible.