COS counter to LRL Dawnriders: Suggestions, please

[Kirby]

I'm starting out with cities, and my main opponent is running magic-heavy Lumineth.   With so many wizards, I have to try and prioritise trying to dispell  the more destructive or defensive LRL spells.  The Vanari units meanwhile tend to have a free reign to cast whatever they like unchallenged.

In particular, Im unsure about how to deal with the mounted Dawnriders who cast speed of Hysh on themselves, sprint 28", and shred my infantry lines with their Deathly Furrows ability.
 

Spoiler

Speed of Hysh: Casting Value 5. Give a unit wholly within 18″ double speed.

Deathly Furrows: At the start of the combat phase, you can either add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of this unit’s melee weapons, but it can only target units that have a Wounds characteristic of 1 or 2 and do not have a mount, or you can add 2 to the Attacks characteristic of this unit’s melee weapons, but it can only target units that have a Wounds characteristic of 1 and do not have a mount. 

So far my solution has been to try and use chariots as chaff, but frankly the Dawnriders are too fast and just dance around them.  And, when they do get in combat the chariots dont actually do enough damage to slow the Dawnriders down.   I tried a dreadlord on black dragon but it struggles to keep up, too.

Any other suggestions appreciated.


 

[Aelfric]

54 minutes ago, Kirby said:

I'm starting out with cities, and my main opponent is running magic-heavy Lumineth.   With so many wizards, I have to try and prioritise trying to dispell  the more destructive or defensive LRL spells.  The Vanari units meanwhile tend to have a free reign to cast whatever they like unchallenged.

In particular, Im unsure about how to deal with the mounted Dawnriders who cast speed of Hysh on themselves, sprint 28", and shred my infantry lines with their Deathly Furrows ability.
 

  Hide contents

Speed of Hysh: Casting Value 5. Give a unit wholly within 18″ double speed.

Deathly Furrows: At the start of the combat phase, you can either add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of this unit’s melee weapons, but it can only target units that have a Wounds characteristic of 1 or 2 and do not have a mount, or you can add 2 to the Attacks characteristic of this unit’s melee weapons, but it can only target units that have a Wounds characteristic of 1 and do not have a mount. 

So far my solution has been to try and use chariots as chaff, but frankly the Dawnriders are too fast and just dance around them.  And, when they do get in combat the chariots dont actually do enough damage to slow the Dawnriders down.   I tried a dreadlord on black dragon but it struggles to keep up, too.

Any other suggestions appreciated.


 

My first thought was either Sisters of the Watch or Handgunners.  Both have a stand and shoot when charged, so should be the perfect foil to Dawnriders, who are not particularly tanky.  I would suggest units of twenty Sisters, but handgunners are cheap enough to also work as chaff in units of 10.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Aelfric

[Boar]

So he takes first turn, and does that? How many Dawnriders does he use, in what unit sizes? What models do you have?

[Landohammer]

So I have played quite a few games vs Dawnrider (and sentinel) heavy LRL and I have found the below methods work great for mitigating their damage.

1) Screen. Use a cheap screen such as dreadspears, flagellents, freeguild, or darkshards and screen your  vulnerable units. 

2) If you can't screen with chaff, use a behemoth, chariot or cavalry to screen. Dawnriders lose a lot of attacks vs non-infantry, so you can make the player have to make a hard choice about potentially sacrificing them. Cheap units with big bases like a scourgerunner can be used to plug holes between terrain. Combined with the 3" rule, you can zone them out and force them to engage undesirable targets. 

3) Screen with units that can overwatch. 20 Sisters of the watch  or 20 Handgunners will damage a unit of 5 enough so that they aren't a threat anymore. In many cases the player may choose to not charge at all. 

4) Bringing shooty units that can deepstrike is also a good answer, especially if you can catch them outside of shining company.  Living City is good for this but so are shadow warriors in any city. However don't fall into the trap of trying to use artillery against them. Their -1 to hit will put most artillery on 5+ or 6+.

 

At the end of the day Dawnriders are quite a bit undercosted for what they bring to the table, so I am hopeful they (and sentinels) will see a firm points increase soon. But until then make sure you have an answer for them in your competitive lists. Because they are very popular!

[Kirby]

17 hours ago, Aelfric said:

My first thought was either Sisters of the Watch or Handgunners.  Both have a stand and shoot when charged, so should be the perfect foil to Dawnriders, who are not particularly tanky.  I would suggest units of twenty Sisters, but handgunners are cheap enough to also work as chaff in units of 10.

I mainly have D.Elves and have been using multiple msu darkshards that can absorb a wave of attacks each.  I guess overwatch handgunners are the sweet spot between weak corsairs and more expensive sisters. 

15 hours ago, Boar said:

So he takes first turn, and does that? How many Dawnriders does he use, in what unit sizes? What models do you have?

Its not necessarily an alphastrike issue.  Although it could be.  Nor is he overwhelmingly me with too many units of the dawnriders. Its just i dont feel i can manoeuvre fast enough to react.

I favor Anvilgard or Tempest Eye.     I have most of the current D.Elve range, except for the drakespawn knights.    Are the knights tanky enough to hold a line?  The pts cost per model seems expensive ill need more than msu just to shield

13 hours ago, Landohammer said:

So I have played quite a few games vs Dawnrider (and sentinel) heavy LRL and I have found the below methods work great for mitigating their damage...

There’s a lot of good ideas here, 🙏🏻
As above, I guess i will have to double down on overwatch screens in the short term.  shining companies, in conjunction with protection of Hysh / Teclis, make it all the harder to thin the ranks before they charge.  
 

i know there are strong opinions over the points cost of LRL, but i dont want them to be nerfed too hard.  Perhaps, if speed of hysh broke shining company that would be enough.

[Boar]

13 minutes ago, Kirby said:

I mainly have D.Elves and have been using multiple msu darkshards that can absorb a wave of attacks each.  I guess overwatch handgunners are the sweet spot between weak corsairs and more expensive sisters. 

I also have dark elves, so what I would do is screen with units of 10-corsairs and simply sacrifice them. Darkshards are to valuable for that IMO. Putting chariots also could work as mentioned. Since you mentioned Anvilgard, Kharybdyss with Acidic Blood comes to mind. You just need to put them close enough together and for that corsairs work as they have larger footprint when string out than chariot

Behing screens at some distance would be darkshards, and some melee hammer whether f.ex. 40 corsairs, 30 executioners, or like me in Har Kuron some Blood Sisters (or something similar).  Screen is there to buy you time, not to do any damage (unless you invest heavily into that).

10 Handgunners will kill on average one Dawnrider when charged, doesn't sound like much, so I would still prefer corsairs, cheaper too.

Drakespawn Knights will lose 1-2 models when charged by 5 Dawnriders, tough wont deal much damage back. When they got to charge they would kill 2-3 Dawnriders, and then with 3+ save could shield part of army somewhat.

There is also question of pre-emptive strike as Scourgerunner Chariots could perhaps deal significant damage to them before they charge. Tough that depends on positioning, their buffs, shining company on/off. If he wasn't careful one thing that could be done in certain situations is closing with scourgerunner chariots, firing weapons and actually charging them with say 3 chariots. This could pin them in place for next turn, or force them to put resources  (magic, shooting) into chariots leaving rest of your army undamaged.

 

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, Kirby said:

 

There’s a lot of good ideas here, 🙏🏻
As above, I guess i will have to double down on overwatch screens in the short term.  shining companies, in conjunction with protection of Hysh / Teclis, make it all the harder to thin the ranks before they charge.  
 

i know there are strong opinions over the points cost of LRL, but i dont want them to be nerfed too hard.  Perhaps, if speed of hysh broke shining company that would be enough.

I think a lot of the LRL hate would subside if Sentinels were nerfed. Right now they just ignore too many rules of the game and exacerbate an army that already has a bit too much control and reliability in its function. 

Dawnriders over perform for their points for sure, but they at least require player involvement and can be mitigated with screens and combat is always inherently risky. Sentinels just point at units 36" away and say "Take X mortal wounds" . That's not really something that belongs in a wargame, much less in a -1 to hit wizard battleline unit. 

 

[Kirby]

2 hours ago, Boar said:

also have dark elves, so what I would do is screen with units of 10-corsairs and simply sacrifice them. Darkshards are to valuable for that IMO.

Yeah, i think you are correct here. 

One thought ive been pondering is whether to use Gryphhounds as a screen.  i know this would eat in to my SE stormhost allowance, but at 3 wnds they avoid the worst of Deathly Furrows.

If my calculations are correct charging dawn riders will on average only cause 5 or 6 wounds to the gryphounds, despite their lack of save.  Thats only 1/3 of a unit.  meanwhile,  they can easily wipeout 10+ corsairs/darkshards/handgunners.

Even i lose two models to battleshock on bravery 6, i guess i could tar pit them for two turns.

Retrearing just outside 3” after my melee attacks is an option. While this would leave the hounds vulnerable to another charge, it could save a lot of damage if the LRL get a double turn.

Do you think this would be  viable or would i be better sticking with handgunners?

[Boar]

4 minutes ago, Kirby said:

One thought ive been pondering is whether to use Gryphhounds as a screen.  i know this would eat in to my SE stormhost allowance, but at 3 wnds they avoid the worst of Deathly Furrows.

Had to check what Gryphounds do. So that sounds quite clever actually. They have decent wounds/point ratio and can cover similar ground to 10 corsairs/handgunners, and as you pointed out they avoid Deathly Furrows with 3 wnd a piece.

Just one thing if you are thretened by double I wouldn.t generally retreat them. As once in combat, unless shot/magicked off they would force cavalry to either fight them again or retreat. And since you are retreating after they hit you Grphhounds screening capacity would be diminished and I guess you wouldn.t be able to protect anything really.

 

[Kirby]

1 hour ago, Boar said:

Just one thing if you are thretened by double I wouldn.t generally retreat them. As once in combat, unless shot/magicked off they would force cavalry to either fight them again or retreat. And since you are retreating after they hit you Grphhounds screening capacity would be diminished and I guess you wouldn.t be able to protect anything really.

Sounds about right, thanks