1500 point Tzeentch army

[seraphor]

I’m playing a 1500 point game (having only played 1000 points before) and trying to cobble together something with what I have.

 10 Tzaangors
10 Acolytes
Tzaangor Shaman
3 Skyfires
Gaunt Summoner
Magister
Changeling 

Picking up the Tzeentch Daemons set to buff up my numbers on a budget, and considering the following set up:

Leaders:
Shaman (General)
Summoner
Changeling
Herald

Battlelines:
Tzaangors
Acolytes
Pink Horrors

Others:
Skyfires
Screamers

 Totalling 1480 points and leaving me with Flamers, Chariot and Blue/Brimstone Horrors for summoning.

 Questions:
1.       Is this efficient for what I have?
2.       Having learned that the Magisters Chaos Spawns are now free, I could pick those up too, and if so, what’s the best way to fit him in there?
Exchange him with the Herald?

Herald gets the ‘roll a 9 and cast again’ skill, while Magister gets an extra cast on rolling a double. Now I could use Destiny Dice to get that 9 (required for pink Fire anyway) and guarantee at least 1 double cast with the Herald. However bringing the Magister means potential Chaos Spawn, and a reason to bring Arcane Transformation to double his Staff attacks along with the Gaunt Summoners.

3.       Speaking of Arcane Transformation… can the wizard cast this on himself? (if I give it to the Magister)
4.       Is there any way I could take all available wizards and not have to choose between Herald and Magister?
5.       If not taking the Herald, would it be worth building him on the Chariot with a lone Exalted Flamer instead of on foot with Burning Chariot?

[seraphor]

Bonus question:

Gaunt Summoner is with his Familiars.
If I give him Treacherous Bond to harvest Blue Horror points from my Pinks... do I get to send all wounds he receives their way? Or do they have to be specifically allocated to him (as opposed to his Familiars) before they're redirected?

[themortalgod]

Changeling is really expensive for what he brings. That is one option to free up pts.

Alo imo, screamers are horrible for their pts. Like, think of it this way. pt for pt they are weaker than zombies. You are basically paying 100pts for 9 squishy wounds that move fast and hit like wet noodles. Compare to 100pts for blue horrors that give you 20 wounds of chaf that are actually more likely to do more damage at range that screamers can do in melee. (2.5 wounds avg vs 2.25)

Yes arcane transformation can be cast on self

 

[Magnus The Blue]

Completely agree that Changling is a bit too expensive for this points level, the disruption is nice but you really need a change host  for full blown changling high Jinx.

I don;t think screamers are as bad as all that, their movement, locus ability and bonus damage Vs  Monsters make them more of a utility unit than blue horrors, but that said I usually only run them in pure demons forces. Enlightened are just sooooo much better for a fast, hard hitting option since you already have a Shammy floating around to buff them. 

Interesting question about GS, familiars and Treacherous Bond. Could be read either way.

[seraphor]

The problem with using Blue Horrors instead of Screamers is that I'll have no Blue Horrors to summon.
Blue Horror points are basically free, especially using DD to trigger Pinks battleshock reinforcements, so it's better value to take the Screamers. (I'll be taking the command ability that ignores battleshocks to use on Tzaangors, and Cult Demagogue to boost bravery for Acolytes and Skyfires)

I could take the Magister instead of the Changeling, which would free up points to take Flamers instead of Screamers... however without Chaos Spawn (and it's probably too late to grab them now) I'm not sure the Magister is really worth it any more.

I'm fighting Nurgle, and my best bet is to keep 18" between us as long as possible, they only have one unit that's faster than 4" so slowing that one down the first turn would be really useful, so too would be using their own spell against their Glottkin to lower their save permanently.

[themortalgod]

1 hour ago, seraphor said:

The problem with using Blue Horrors instead of Screamers is that I'll have no Blue Horrors to summon.
Blue Horror points are basically free, especially using DD to trigger Pinks battleshock reinforcements, so it's better value to take the Screamers. (I'll be taking the command ability that ignores battleshocks to use on Tzaangors, and Cult Demagogue to boost bravery for Acolytes and Skyfires)

I could take the Magister instead of the Changeling, which would free up points to take Flamers instead of Screamers... however without Chaos Spawn (and it's probably too late to grab them now) I'm not sure the Magister is really worth it any more.

I'm fighting Nurgle, and my best bet is to keep 18" between us as long as possible, they only have one unit that's faster than 4" so slowing that one down the first turn would be really useful, so too would be using their own spell against their Glottkin to lower their save permanently.

Use the blues as screens. They should be dead long before you have enough blue pts to summon with. Then when they do die, you tend to surge back with a ton of brims and blues.

Screamers simply do so little. Id argue that 2 extra cp is worth more than 3 screamers. Think of it this way. 400pts in screamers take 3 rounds of combat, at full power to kill a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon. Thats assuming they take no casualties and all can get into base to base (never gonna happen).  (and this is against a target they are supped to specialize in killing) They are one of the most pts inneficicient units in the whole game. Speed means nothing if you strike so weakly that it would take a 3 man squad 4 rounds to clear out a squad of 10 skinks. 4+ to hit at 1 attack per 10pts spent with no rend and damage 1 is just so horrible. 

 

( i say this with a lot of sadness, I love my screamers and spent alot of time painting them but they just never pull their weight)

 

 

[seraphor]

I’m not really seeing the huge gap between Screamers and Blue Horrors here…

 10 Blues vs. 3 Screamers

10 wounds vs 9 wounds
30 attacks vs 9 attacks (ok, blues considerably better here)
5’s to hit and wounds vs 4 to hit and 3 to wound… so can knock off at least a third of those attacks right off the bat.
6 save vs 5 save, so Screamers have more staying power, but obviously no extra brims to replace them.
Slashing Fins, can deal mortal wounds just by flying over enemies, which is quite achievable thanks to  a move of 16”.
Sky-sharks converts 1 damage attack to D3 damage against monsters.

I’d already have Tzaangors with infinite bravery and a Shaman to help replenish the ranks, plus Acolytes, plus regenerating Pinks to keep the front line busy, meanwhile I can rush the Screamers over the front line, possibly dealing mortal wounds, and rush the Glottkin, dealing a possible maximum of 9xD3 damage. That’s better than Skyfires…

It's situational, but I think the Screamers here are at least in the running.

[themortalgod]

20 hours ago, seraphor said:

I’m not really seeing the huge gap between Screamers and Blue Horrors here…

 10 Blues vs. 3 Screamers

10 wounds vs 9 wounds
30 attacks vs 9 attacks (ok, blues considerably better here)
5’s to hit and wounds vs 4 to hit and 3 to wound… so can knock off at least a third of those attacks right off the bat.
6 save vs 5 save, so Screamers have more staying power, but obviously no extra brims to replace them.
Slashing Fins, can deal mortal wounds just by flying over enemies, which is quite achievable thanks to  a move of 16”.
Sky-sharks converts 1 damage attack to D3 damage against monsters.

I’d already have Tzaangors with infinite bravery and a Shaman to help replenish the ranks, plus Acolytes, plus regenerating Pinks to keep the front line busy, meanwhile I can rush the Screamers over the front line, possibly dealing mortal wounds, and rush the Glottkin, dealing a possible maximum of 9xD3 damage. That’s better than Skyfires…

It's situational, but I think the Screamers here are at least in the running.

Blues are 20 wounds since they also give you 10 wounds of brims when they die.

[Magnus The Blue]

Lots of numbers are way off,

Blue horrors only have 10 attacks (5+,5+) and 10 shots (4+,4+), which actually give them similar damage output to screamers

Screamers are usually slightly harder to kill than Blues if they are in range for their locus (-1 to hit).

The main difference is movement and bonus damage to monster, against range (shooting) and splitting.   The problem with screamers is that Enlighten provide such a better option (having a good damage output), whereas blues are probably the best screening unit available to us (when they get mushed turn 1, you get another screen for free).