Screamers of Tzeentch - Locus of Change

[EMMachine]

Hi,

I think many of us know the rule for Locus of Change:

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Locus of Change: Whilst this unit is within 9" of any TZEENTCH DAEMON HEROES from your army, they are surrounded by a twisted aura of change; if an enemy model targets such a unit, your opponent must treat any hit rolls of 6 as hit rolls of 1 instead.

I have the feeling that this rule could need some clarification by FAQ or Errata (paticularly after this question of the Rulebook FAQ).

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Q: How do abilities which trigger on 'a roll of 6' interact with modifiers? For example, if an ability states that it has an effect on 'a wound roll of 6' and the model has a modifier which adds 1 to their wound rolls, would a roll of 6 trigger that ability?

A: Yes, In the Warhammer Age of Sigmar Rules 'a role of 6' is treated as being synonymous with 'a roll of 6 or more'

There are actually 3 ways this rule could work

1. That all dice that are showing a 6 are threat as 1. (in this case we saw the sentence "(after re-rolls, but before modifiers are applied)" in the newest battletomes like Daughters of Khaine
2. its after modifiers but only 6 will be converted (so a buff of +1 would make 6 to 7 (which didn't converted to 1 but 5 would be because 5 would become 6)
3. with considering of the FAQ that 'a role of 6' is treated as 'a roll of 6 or more' in case of a modifier of +2 on hitrolls each roll of 4 (which becomes 6) or more would become a 1. (This would be really OP after the change of hitting would degree drasticly with modifiers after a natural 1 is a automatic miss and models that are already bad at hitting (To Hit 5+ would have even less chances and units hitting on 6+, don't know if there are Units left after zombies have been changed, wouldn't be able to hit at all)

 

What do you think?

I don't have facebook, so I can't post the question there.

Regards

EMMachine

Edit: Another Model with this type of rule is the Grot Warboss with his ability "Dead Tricksy (or just Lucky)"

[BaldoBeardo]

If you roll a 6, it counts as a 1.

Resolve any other abilities such as rerolls or modifiers from there.

[EMMachine]

1 hour ago, BaldoBeardo said:

If you roll a 6, it counts as a 1.

Resolve any other abilities such as rerolls or modifiers from there.

What makes this one so special that its applied before re-rolls?

The problem is that each ability that makes you do something uses the term "a hit role of x" or "a hit role of x or more".

If it is count as some sort of modifier (it changes 6 to 1) than it wouldn't interact with the rule of 1 and only deny abilites (thats actiually a case I didn't consider in my opening post). If it should interact before rerolls or before modifiers the rule must tell this because it's only stated that re-rolls and the rules of 1 are applied before modifiers. We had the question her before:

The question here was how it interacts with the rule of one (before the GH17 a attack with this rule simply was a miss after 6. weren't a automatic success. But at that time the FAQ Question above didn't exist yet, if I remember correctly.

I mean, GW made the sentence "(after re-rolls, but before modifiers are applied)"  to make a difference between dicerolls and modified roles for abilites with "x or more"

[TheOtherJosh]

On 4/20/2018 at 4:00 AM, EMMachine said:

What makes this one so special that its applied before re-rolls?

The problem is that each ability that makes you do something uses the term "a hit role of x" or "a hit role of x or more".

If it is count as some sort of modifier (it changes 6 to 1) than it wouldn't interact with the rule of 1 and only deny abilites (thats actiually a case I didn't consider in my opening post). If it should interact before rerolls or before modifiers the rule must tell this because it's only stated that re-rolls and the rules of 1 are applied before modifiers. We had the question her before:

The question here was how it interacts with the rule of one (before the GH17 a attack with this rule simply was a miss after 6. weren't a automatic success. But at that time the FAQ Question above didn't exist yet, if I remember correctly.

I mean, GW made the sentence "(after re-rolls, but before modifiers are applied)"  to make a difference between dicerolls and modified roles for abilites with "x or more"

This has already been clarified in the current Chaos faq.

“Q: When using the Screamers of Tzeentch’s Locus of Change ability, do you change hit rolls of 6 to hit rolls of 1 before or after re-rolls and modifiers have been applied?
A: Before. (A ‘roll’ is the value of the dice before re-rolls and modifiers have been used.)” (Chaos AoS Rules faq v1.4 pg.5)

Thusly, any natural roll of 6 on the screamers affected by the Locus of Change is an automatic miss. (Before rerolls/modifiers).

[EMMachine]

1 hour ago, TheOtherJosh said:

This has already been clarified in the current Chaos faq.

“Q: When using the Screamers of Tzeentch’s Locus of Change ability, do you change hit rolls of 6 to hit rolls of 1 before or after re-rolls and modifiers have been applied?
A: Before. (A ‘roll’ is the value of the dice before re-rolls and modifiers have been used.)” (Chaos AoS Rules faq v1.4 pg.5)

Thusly, any natural roll of 6 on the screamers affected by the Locus of Change is an automatic miss. (Before rerolls/modifiers).

Hm, I searched for this point on page 6 in the "Disciples of Tzeentch" Part of the FAQ and wondered I didn't found anything.

The point is they should really Errata tha rule because nearly every ability uses the term "roll" and most of the time it's after modifiers (hit roll of 6 or more, wound roll of 5 or more etc).

Here four examples

Bleakswords, Quicksilver Strike

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Each time you make a hit roll of 6 or more for a Bleaksword, that model can immediatly make one extra attack ...

Bloodletters, Decapitating Blow

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If the hit roll for a Hellblade is 6 or more, that blow inflicts a mortal wound insteal of its normal damage

Retributors, Blast to Ashes

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If the hit roll for a model attacking with a Lighting Hammer is 6 or more, that blow strikes with a thunderous blast that inflicts 2 mortal wounds instead of its normal damage. ...

Crypt Flayers, Skewering Strike

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Each time you make a hitroll of 6 for a Crypt Flyer's Piercing Talons and Claws, that attack has impaled its target, inflicting a mortal wound instead of its normal damage.

Even the Rulefaq says

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Q: How do abilities which trigger on 'a roll of 6' interact with modifiers? For example, if an ability states that it has an effect on 'a wound roll of 6' and the model has a modifier which adds 1 to their wound rolls, would a roll of 6 trigger that ability?

A: Yes, In the Warhammer Age of Sigmar Rules 'a role of 6' is treated as being synonymous with 'a roll of 6 or more'

So most rules referring to "hit roll" trigger after modifications or the entire handling with "6 or more" was wrong from the beginning. In any other case the FAQ answer for for Locus of Change isn't plausible, because the Rulefaq answer would change the Rule to this:

 

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Whilst this unit is within 9" of any TZEENTCH DAEMON HEROES from your army, they are surrounded by a twisting aura of change; if an enemy model targets such a unit, your opponent must treat any hit rolls of 6 or more as hit rolls of 1 instead

And that would imply its after modifiers like every other rule exept the ones using terms like "(after re-rolls, but before modifiers are applied)" .

[TheOtherJosh]

I understand that you may not be as enthusiastic about the lack of consistency.

In this particular specific case it was addressed in the faq and would override the general rule reference and no implication or inference is required. (The faq explicitly calls this as happening pre-rerolls/modifiers for this ability. Though the reason why is ... not particularly helpful.)

If you’re concerned about the lack of consistency, I recommend sending a letter to aosfaq@gwplc.com with your concerns. (We’re all just part of the community like you.  )

[EMMachine]

14 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

ers for this ability. Though the reason why is ... not particularly helpful.)

If you’re concerned about the lack of consistency, I recommend sending a letter to aosfaq@gwplc.com with your concerns. (We’re all just part of the community like you.  )

So today I wrote an E-Mail to the FAQ Team.

Hopefully they will understand it after my motherlanguage is german.

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Hi GW-FAQ Team

 

I have the feeling two similar abilities should be reconsidered.

 

The two rules are Locus of Change (“Screamers of Tzeentch” in the Battletome Desciples of Tzeentch) and the Ability Dead Tricksy (or just Lucky) (“Grot Warboss” Grand Alliance Book: Destruction). I don’t know if there are other units with such a rule.

 

Both abilities have rules that they treat rolls of 6 as 1 instead.

Locus of Change: Whilst this unit is within 9" of any TZEENTCH DAEMON HEROES from your army, they are surrounded by a twisted aura of change; if an enemy model targets such a unit, your opponent must treat any hit rolls of 6 as hit rolls of 1 instead.        

 

Dead Tricksy (or just Lucky): Enemy models that target a Grot Warboss with an attack treat all hit rolls of 6 as 1 instead.

 

In the Chaos FAQ there was already a Q and A about Locus of Change on page 5 (don’t know why this wasn’t in the Disciples of Tzeentch part on page 6 of the FAQ)

There it was handled this way.

 

Q: When using the Screamers of Tzeentch’s Locus of Change ability, do you change hit rolls of 6 to hit rolls of 1 before or after re-rolls and modifiers have been applied?

A: Before (A ‘roll’ is the value of the dice before re-rolls and modifiers have been used.)

 

Know, this answer brings us in some trouble.

First, nearly every ability, that triggers on rolls use the term ‘roll’ but most of the time with the sentence like 6 or more, so in most cases the word ‘roll’ is used after modifiers  or in case of re-rolls before modifiers do to a exceptionrule.

 

Here are 4 examples:

Bleakswords

Quicksilver Strike: Each time you make a hit roll of 6 or more for a Bleaksword, that model can immediatly make one extra attack ...        

 

Bloodletters

Decapitating Blow: If the hit roll for a Hellblade is 6 or more, that blow inflicts a mortal wound instead of its normal damage

 

Retributors

Blast to Ashes: If the hit roll for a model attacking with a Lighting Hammer is 6 or more, that blow strikes with a thunderous blast that inflicts 2 mortal wounds instead of its normal damage. ...

 

Crypt Flayers

Skewering Strike: Each time you make a hit roll of 6 for a Crypt Flyer's Piercing Talons and Claws, that attack has impaled its target, inflicting a mortal wound instead of its normal damage.        

 

So, roll isn’t the term for the roll without modifiers most of the time.

 

Second. The 2 abilities weren’t a problem before the Generals Handbook 2017 came out.

The roll is changed to 1 wouldn’t hit (but normally would be a modifier after it’s not the value that was rolled).

But with the Rules of one, the roll of 6 would be a success before modifiers.

 

The 2nd Rule of One: A roll of 1 to hit, wound, or save always fails. By the same token, a roll of 6 to hit or wound always succeed. In both cases, this applies to the roll after any re-rolls have been taken, but before modifiers are applied.

 

Third, in the Rule FAQ we have this point on page 4 of the FAQ section:

                   

Q: How do abilities which trigger on 'a roll of 6' interact with modifiers? For example, if an ability states that it has an effect on 'a wound roll of 6' and the model has a modifier which adds 1 to their wound rolls, would a roll of 6 trigger that ability?                

A: Yes, In the Warhammer Age of Sigmar Rules 'a role of 6' is treated as being synonymous with 'a roll of 6 or more'            

 

So, in case of consistency the 2 Abilities would be also cases of 6 or more and so applied after modifiers, so it wouldn’t stop hitting but using abilities that triggers.

 

So, what is my solution for this?

Since this year, some rules use the following sentence in brackets (after re-rolls, but before modifiers are applied), so I would apply it in such a way:

 

Dead Tricksy (or just Lucky): Enemy models that target a Grot Warboss with an attack treat all hit rolls of 6 (before re-rolls), as 1 instead.

or

Dead Tricksy (or just Lucky): Enemy models that target a Grot Warboss with an attack treat all hit rolls of 6 (after re-rolls, but before modifiers are applied), as 1 instead and will automatically miss.

 

Regards

E*** “EMMachine” M*********

 

P.S. Is there a e-mail adresse for the german Errata/FAQ or does it uses the same address? I don't have facebook so this isn't an option for me.