What nasty combos have you thought up based on the leaked rules

[Nullius]

40 minutes ago, Sception said:

The minimum value of both spells is one.  The expected value of arcane bolt is two, and the expected value of blood boil...  well, it varries depending on the target.  The expected damage of blood boil is the sum of n divided by 2 to the power n, for all values of n ranging from 1 to the total number of remaining wounds on the most damaged model in the target unit.  Well, plus a little bit at the end, equal to your last n/2^n again, since the series stops there.

For a hypothetical infinite wound target, blood boil's expected damage would converge to 2, but in practical application the actual expected damage will be a bit less than that.  1 vs a target with only 1 wound, 1.5 vs a target with 2 wounds remaining, 1.75 vs a target with three wounds remaining, and so on, adding half of the remaining distance to 2 with each extra wound on the target.

For a target with 5 wounds remaining, the expected damage is 1.9375.

All a long winded way of saying that, for blood boil's ideal targets, heroes and monsters with 5 or more wounds, it makes more sense to round up to two when talking about the spells expected damage, rather than down to one.

And the potential damage is a lot higher, obviously. Arcane bolt never does more than 3 damage, while blood boil has a 1/8 chance of doing 4 or more damage.  Obviously thats not much, wont happen in every game, but in a dice game sometimes you pay for potential as much as average.

 

AND with the rules of one, you can't cast arcane bolt more than once anyway.  It's not arcane bolt that threatens to make blood boil redundant, but the other vampire lore spells, like orb with its >2 expected damage (provided you can get at least 2 units in the line of fire).  Or transference, with expected damage and healing of two.

That said, in a list with multiple vampires and/or deathlords, where the good vamp lore spells also start running into the rules of one, I think blood boil will still have a place.

Right I forgot Blood Boil does one wound automatically before you begin rolling. So it converges to two. The argument I’m making is that the small potential of doing more than two or three damage is not worth a fifty percent dive in probability of success. It’s a gimmick spell.

[Lemon Knuckles]

On 2/9/2018 at 6:09 AM, Sception said:

Endless Legions.

This command ability has been largely disregarded by pitched battle players, including myself, due to its situational nature, it's use of reserve points, and the risk of losing those points outright if your general dies before you get to activate the ability.  In general, it seems outright worse than just taking those same points, buying another unit, and simply deploying them via the normal grave site method.  That way, you get your extra, forward deployed unit even if the enemy hasn't killed another identical unit first, and even if the enemy has already killed your general, so long as you have at least one hero left.

However, Endless Legions does have one thing in its favor - the unit is summoned back in the hero phase, instead of at the end of the movement phase.  That means the unit is there in time to be buffed with spells and other abilities (though obviously not command abilities, since you used one to summon them).  And since there's no restriction on the units actions, it's free to move in the same turn, resulting in a guaranteed or near guaranteed charge for any summonable unit.  An extra downside is that your general needs to be within 9" of the gravesite you want to use at the start of your turn, since the command ability is used before movement.

It's the kind of gimmick trick that's unlikely to work on a given opponent more than once, but try shoving a maxed out unit of spirit hosts or 20 grave guard (perhaps using the skeleton formation for increased movement to make them feel like an immediate threat) in your opponents face while surropticiously moving your general within range of a well positioned gravesite, with enough points in reserve to summon the unit.  If the opponent opts to focus down your hammer, fearing your ability to regenerate them with overlapping gravesites if they don't finish the job, then on your next turn you can summon in the replacement unit at full strength in easy or automatic charge range and still have time to throw vanhels on them.

 

Again, this isn't really a serious competitive strategy, it's far to easy to snipe your general leaving all your reserve points wasted.  Legion of Sacrament might be able to save them with the Master's Teachings, but that requires such a rube goldberg situation to even try to activate, and then still fails half the time, that sniping the general before you can activate endless legions will still probably lose the game.  In general, the LoN reserve point abilities just aren't worth using.  But in that one game where the opponent doesn't realize this is a thing, having a vanhelsed unit of 6+ spirit hosts or 20+ grave guard appear out of nowhere in easy or automatic charge range in the middle of the game will be a fun surprise.

I really cannot wrap my head around Endless Legions.  It seems to me that it is not just a "not good" ability, but an actively "terribly bad" ability.  Two main reasons:

1. There is a large series of contingencies that need to align in order to pull it off:  a) you need to have one of your summonable units destroyed, b) you need to have set aside the right number of points that corresponds with the value of the unit that is destroyed, c) you need to have your general alive, d) your general needs to be within 9" of a gravesite, e) your opponent must not have denied your ability to summon the unit wholly within 9" of the site but still 9" away from any of his models.

2.  You need to guess in advance which unit(s) will get wiped that you want to recur so you can set aside the correct number of reserve points, thereby telegraphing in advance to your opponent you intention to try and use Endless Legions and allowing them to play around your intention as much as possible.  

By and large, we already WANT our opponent to focus on our summonables and leave our heros unmolested.  Setting points aside for this just gives them even more incentive to do exactly what we DON'T want them to do.  The more points I set aside, the more flexibility I get by including more units as possible targets for recursion; but also the more waste and inefficiecny I risk if I fail to recur or have to recur a unit with a lesser value than what I reseved for.

[grungolah]

OK, not sure how nasty this is, but I call it "Bravery Bubble of Death."  

*Legion of Blood

Necromancer General  (*Overwhelming Dread, *Soul Crushing Contempt)

Mounted Vampire Lord (Oubliette Arcana, Blades of Shyish)

3x Mortis Engine 

Terrorgeist

2x *Morghast Harbingers

40x *Skeleton Warriors 

10x *Skeleton Warriors

10x *Skeleton Warriors

5x *Black Knights

2x Tomb Banshees

 

*-5 to -6 potential bravery debuff stacking (half just by getting close), and a lot of MW.   

1990 points.

[smucreo]

No mounted necros anymore sadly  I'd include some vamps there to use the buff to their attacks, maybe one to try to summon the 40 skeletons up ahead?

[grungolah]

Well what the deuce?  Are they discontinuing my derpy mounted necro?  Fine... 

 

I can put in a vampire, but the defensive ability of the necromancer is very valuable.  There is a shortage of wizards in this list, so that feels more important.  I also like the necro spell list better, but I suppose I could part with 1.

[smucreo]

Put a necro on a balewind if worst comes to worst. You get a 36" range Overwhelming Dread.

[grungolah]

That's an idea.   Always fun trying to squeeze another 100 points(?) in. 

[Josh]

i was under the impression the -1banners dont stack

[grungolah]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

i was under the impression the -1banners dont stack

I assume they wouldn't.   There's several sources of -1

[Richelieu]

2 hours ago, Josh said:

i was under the impression the -1banners dont stack

They do not, due to the wording 'within 6" of any banners' 

Ask yourself the question.  Is the opponent's unit within 6" of any units with that ability? If yes, the ability triggers. Rules F.A.Q.  1.2 clarified that. (Not that it needed it.  It's a perfectly well worded test)

[Richelieu]

On 2/10/2018 at 12:57 PM, Lemon Knuckles said:

I really cannot wrap my head around Endless Legions.  It seems to me that it is not just a "not good" ability, but an actively "terribly bad" ability.  Two main reasons:

1. There is a large series of contingencies that need to align in order to pull it off:  a) you need to have one of your summonable units destroyed, b) you need to have set aside the right number of points that corresponds with the value of the unit that is destroyed, c) you need to have your general alive, d) your general needs to be within 9" of a gravesite, e) your opponent must not have denied your ability to summon the unit wholly within 9" of the site but still 9" away from any of his models.

2.  You need to guess in advance which unit(s) will get wiped that you want to recur so you can set aside the correct number of reserve points, thereby telegraphing in advance to your opponent you intention to try and use Endless Legions and allowing them to play around your intention as much as possible.  

By and large, we already WANT our opponent to focus on our summonables and leave our heros unmolested.  Setting points aside for this just gives them even more incentive to do exactly what we DON'T want them to do.  The more points I set aside, the more flexibility I get by including more units as possible targets for recursion; but also the more waste and inefficiecny I risk if I fail to recur or have to recur a unit with a lesser value than what I reseved for.

Every battletome has abilities that are not good in matched play.  I think LoN actually has a higher concentration of usable abilities than any previous tome (I haven't studied nurgle maggot kin deeply so not sure how that compares on that measure).

[Lemon Knuckles]

33 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

Every battletome has abilities that are not good in matched play.  I think LoN actually has a higher concentration of usable abilities than any previous tome (I haven't studied nurgle maggot kin deeply so not sure how that compares on that measure).

I love the book and all that it has to offer.  Top marks from me.  I think my point with that comment was to just check and see if I was missing something.  Else, yeah, I agree, its not matched play material, and that's totally OK.