Summoning Discussion Post GHB

[mmimzie]

@Killax See you make the point of artifacts, spells, and command traits being free, and i'd say these could honestly cost points to with the option for some like the ring of immortality to be free (because the cost rebuying the model in the first place with few wounds).  

However, as it stand currently no one has really been rolling people over too much with artifacts, command traits, alliegance, etc. Like archon + DoT is cool but it sucks if you don't have any big juicy targets and is easy to avoid. These effects are so small and only hit such a few number of models in your army that them being powerful kind of does matter because they get lost in the mix. Look at the mistweaver sith or the moon clan shaman i think these two are some of the best wizards in the game for thier low cost damage output, but they are pretty low impact and while cost effective they are a drop in the bucket that is your army. As far as i've seen the army rules have been this, and even then these getting points would be fine by me.

 

Summoning being discounted for free either puts a lot of the cost onto the summoner models or the rest of the summoners army. Thus, it would have to arbitrarily inflate the price of the army. Free summoning has always been powerful and tournament winning. From old vampires that were ruling the end of the fantasy with summoning to 40k where summoning is rampant and break fluff randomly and has won a few big tournaments in a game system where only the cheese truly rises to the top.  It's to fine a razor point to balance properly as small adjustments in the summoner or thier armies cost can make it go from OP to Useless quite easily.

Further more, when you have summoners like nagash and arkan in the game who can kind of summon with out penalty that perceived opportunity cost gets a bit diminished. 

I really would be excited to see more units like Banshees, Harbingers, Dire wolves that shine almost only when summoned. This paired with maybe wizards or spells that allow alternate summoning like a spell that could let you summon zombies in melee on a new necromancer model would be really cool.  Both these instances can be control by points to degrees where the different between OP and UP has a big hazzy gap in between. As far as command traits, artifacts, etc it would be cool to see buffs or summoning benefits coming from these, but i wouldn't want them to let me create whole free units as i think it would limit design space of the game. 

Edit: i guess to put it more simply, wizards cost ~ 100 points standard for 6 wounds 6+ with atk1 3+/3+ -1 d3 and one spell a turn. most wizard through about an arcane missiles worth of damage and thier personal spells can do a little more or less. If you have any short of free summoning your arcane missle/mystic shield is a joke in comparison to your other spells because even just summoning 10 free zombies is better than what you get out of an arcane missle. 

[wayniac]

I do think that artefacts should be for free.  I mean, I kinda like the idea (and this is slightly unrelated) of forcing traits and artefacts to be randomly generated rather than "pick the best", but then you'd need to make things like the Ring or Sword of Unholy Power be free, because it's not your choice to take it.  I don't think that would be broken at all (other than the usual "But they get something free waaaaah its not fair!" retort).  Still though, my viewpoint on fixing summoning is to limit chain casting, perhaps force it to be allegiance (so no Nurgle summoning Pink Horrors or Bloodletters), increase the difficulty as @Auticus says, and make them 1/game but free.  However, I will not lie that would make my FEC stronger because our summons aren't spells so have no difficulty (I know under Auticus' rules as he is using for his campaign, it still costs points) but given how generally weak FEC is, I don't think being able to summon 10 ghouls, 3 horrors/flayers, 1 ghoul king (who can't also summon due to no chain summoning) or 1 courtier to be overpowered 1/game is broken.

[wayniac]

1 minute ago, Auticus said:

My narrative campaign - summoning is free.  It costs no points.  Its just a lot harder to cast, and additionally chain summoning can kill your casters so there is risk to doing it.

Sorry, I wrote "points" but I meant the summoning roll is required even on abilities that don't normally require one (i.e. FEC) unless you changed it from when you posted on Dakka

[wayniac]

2 minutes ago, Auticus said:

Ah yeah.  For abilities that were normally just free or just happened, it goes off on a 4+.  And heroes can come back on a 6+.  

It means that it won't happen all the time but at the same time you don't have to put points aside for it.

Free points that are reliable are in my opinion garbage power gaming that you'd always do if you could for obvious reasons.

I agree to a point, which is why I think for my own house rules when not using Matched Play I might limit to 1/game.  That makes it a lot less abusive when you can't spam it, but like for my FEC it gives me a little more punch without being crazy good.

[Killax]

3 hours ago, mmimzie said:

@Killax See you make the point of artifacts, spells, and command traits being free, and i'd say these could honestly cost points to with the option for some like the ring of immortality to be free (because the cost rebuying the model in the first place with few wounds).  

However, as it stand currently no one has really been rolling people over too much with artifacts, command traits, alliegance, etc. Like archon + DoT is cool but it sucks if you don't have any big juicy targets and is easy to avoid. These effects are so small and only hit such a few number of models in your army that them being powerful kind of does matter because they get lost in the mix. Look at the mistweaver sith or the moon clan shaman i think these two are some of the best wizards in the game for thier low cost damage output, but they are pretty low impact and while cost effective they are a drop in the bucket that is your army. As far as i've seen the army rules have been this, and even then these getting points would be fine by me.

 

Summoning being discounted for free either puts a lot of the cost onto the summoner models or the rest of the summoners army. Thus, it would have to arbitrarily inflate the price of the army. Free summoning has always been powerful and tournament winning. From old vampires that were ruling the end of the fantasy with summoning to 40k where summoning is rampant and break fluff randomly and has won a few big tournaments in a game system where only the cheese truly rises to the top.  It's to fine a razor point to balance properly as small adjustments in the summoner or thier armies cost can make it go from OP to Useless quite easily.

Further more, when you have summoners like nagash and arkan in the game who can kind of summon with out penalty that perceived opportunity cost gets a bit diminished. 

I really would be excited to see more units like Banshees, Harbingers, Dire wolves that shine almost only when summoned. This paired with maybe wizards or spells that allow alternate summoning like a spell that could let you summon zombies in melee on a new necromancer model would be really cool.  Both these instances can be control by points to degrees where the different between OP and UP has a big hazzy gap in between. As far as command traits, artifacts, etc it would be cool to see buffs or summoning benefits coming from these, but i wouldn't want them to let me create whole free units as i think it would limit design space of the game. 

Edit: i guess to put it more simply, wizards cost ~ 100 points standard for 6 wounds 6+ with atk1 3+/3+ -1 d3 and one spell a turn. most wizard through about an arcane missiles worth of damage and thier personal spells can do a little more or less. If you have any short of free summoning your arcane missle/mystic shield is a joke in comparison to your other spells because even just summoning 10 free zombies is better than what you get out of an arcane missle. 

They certainly could cost points but they don't and they honestly don't have too either. The prime reason behind this is because a lot of the design found in Age of Sigmar actually looks a lot like each other. Which allows a ton of units to be costed the same. If they do however and there are big differences (such as Bloodcrushers vs Skullcrushers) you can savely say that a cost reduction for the 'worse' unit is the better choice as upping the cost for the other. The reason again is that reducing and increasing costs eventually lead to the same kind of balance. 
The moment you can generate 'free points' the game does not become of-balanced instantly. 

It's not really about what model rolls over what. It really is about an army wide balance. Slight free bonuses assist in % to win. 
What makes AoS AoS is that it's filled with abilities that seem OP or useless at first and often arn't in the army set up. Comparing model by model is not how the game is played or 'works'. 

I don't agree with your latest assessment of how 10 free Zombies are better as a single Arcane Missle. What we see is that Age of Sigmar revolves alot around their Heroes to support things. In fact Missle Attacks (spells included) are the best way to easily deal with characters because they cannot be physically stopped by applying models.
As before I'd suggest creating House-rules for summoning and test them. Generating 100 free Summoning points for destroying an opposing Unit is hardly OP or Useless. It adds to the tarpit strength Death has and I think it's very likely we'll see an eventual Battletome pick that up as a Battle Trait aswell. 

Summoning still requires a succesion roll, is a spell and requires Death Wizards.  

Cheers, 

[Soldier of decay]

Make summoning not suck seems to be the general idea.

 

What about editing warscrolls for units that can be summoned. If you summon them, they gain an extra ability fitting their focus. If you start them on the field they are weaker.  The points pool does seem the only way to keep balance but if you get more out of those points because you summoned the unit ( thus risking failing the summon or having them arrive too late)

If not the units' warsrcoll, maybe the summoner themselves can add a bonus to any unit they summon.

For things like the immortality ring. half points should be fair.

just an idea from a new player.

shoot me full of holes