Summoning Discussion Post GHB

[jamierk]

Just thought i'd start a discussion up on summoning post the Generals Handbook as we know it now. Interesting with no requirement to declare the summoning pool vs the half cost previously used by SCGT. I kind of like it, it adds flexibility as you can choose what to summon through the game even though you are paying full points cost for it. A good general can probably make use of this, considering the variety of units you can summon (Lizards for example) as well as their comparative difficulty. Also if you fail to summon something up, you havn't yet paid any points for it, so summon something else in the turn and you are in no worse position.

Thoughts?

Excited to try this out with my Slann!

[Carnelian]

I think it's great. Makes summoning a real risk but also deciding what to summon mid game can be a great tactical advantage. Plus it's very simple and very cinematic. Win win win.

[mmimzie]

I think it's the best solution. I like it better than SCGT. Summoning is already pretty good as you can shoot and pontentialy charge on the first turn. 

Plus deploying light could let your pick to go first or second using the set up rules. Rewards players for having a bigger army pool. 

[Kevin K]

I like the summoning solution.  We have played similarly but using the SCGT points and it has worked great.

One questions I thought of, does summoning effect your allegiance?   I just started collecting a Rotbringer based Nurgle army supported by demons.  The Blight Kings can only be battleline if using the Rotbringer allegiance.  Could I start with all Rotbringers but then summon on Nurgle demons?  That certainly is within the letter of the rules.  Is it in the spirit of the rules?  It seems like it might be.  It sounds cool anyway.

[Gaz Taylor]

I like the solution in the book from what I've heard so far. It keeps it a tactical choice for how you deploy units but stops any abuse people could try and do. I suspect Death armies will get the most use out of this as they have an easier time summoning things, but I think it's an nice but risky option for anybody else.

 

3 minutes ago, Kevin K said:

One questions I thought of, does summoning effect your allegiance?   I just started collecting a Rotbringer based Nurgle army supported by demons.  The Blight Kings can only be battleline if using the Rotbringer allegiance.  Could I start with all Rotbringers but then summon on Nurgle demons?  That certainly is within the letter of the rules.  Is it in the spirit of the rules?  It seems like it might be.  It sounds cool anyway.

It's only going to effect it depending on how you choose your allegiance when you make your list. I think in majority of cases it won't

 

[Tommy]

Best thing about it for me is how utterly simple it is. And yet as already mentioned it still delivers in terms of risk/reward and interesting choices. Kudos to whoever came up with it!

I've tried to think of super-easy house rules to balance/restrict summoning a few times and always ended up layering on a lot more complexity than we have now with this. Sure that was before points which this approach makes use of, but nevertheless.

[PJetski]

I'm just glad it lets me get around restrictions on Behemoth/Leader/Artillery.

I think it's unfair that summoning gets neutered but similar abilities (like calling units with Flesheater) do not, but I'm willing to wait and see how it plays out.

[Carnelian]

That's another point I hadn't thought of- summoning all the behemoths you want!

[DamonRafael]

Not sure about that, you still have to create a proper list if you're going to play pitched games. Therefore, you can't have more than 4 behemoths on the table.

What I understood is that you do your list at X points, and then say "ok, I'll take those apart for summing purpose". Am I wrong?

[Nubgan]

I think it only adds a layer of tactics personally and thats nice, it also gets round having to make some of the formation scrolls to get things like reserves or outflanks, and also means some armies have the option. Personally I think the way they do it with free units in 40k is broken, this is definately the much fairer option of the two in my opinion.

[Shane]

Wanting to see the exact wording on whether it does affect your allegiance/faction trait.

If not, it definitely opens up many possibilities.

It would be a boost for Tzeentch as you could then begin summoning non-Tzeentch units onto the board as and when required. Perhaps Skarbrand on the second turn or some Seekers to take a far off objective.

[AdHocGames]

I've only played a couple of games with the new rules, but i like it. I've used a Zombie horde army for the most part since Sigmar launched, and to be honest with the way summoning was working, it was too easy. Give me a few turns and i'd fill most of the board with Zombies. Now it takes more thought for me to win and i have to make sacrifices to do so.
I also really like the fact you don't have to list what your summoning before hand, which opens up a heap of tactical options.

[polarbear]

I'm glad summoning has been restricted. It stood out to me as way too big a part of the game. I didn't find the idea of it very fun and I didn't summon myself before because the mechanic just didn't appeal to me - felt like making an unfair fight. Making it risk/reward and limited in scope makes it more like any other part of the game, in my opinion.

[AaronWilson]

Hey guys I'm new here. Can anyone explain to me how summoning works according to the GHB please?

[Chris Tomlin]

6 hours ago, DamonRafael said:

Not sure about that, you still have to create a proper list if you're going to play pitched games. Therefore, you can't have more than 4 behemoths on the table.

What I understood is that you do your list at X points, and then say "ok, I'll take those apart for summing purpose". Am I wrong?

This is certainly my understanding.

If it doesn't work like this then it is incredibly powerful for the potential to break restrictions and allow allegiance boosts (extra battleline etc) before summoning in other stuff.

However it ends up playing out, the basic summoning rules themselves seem simple and effective. I think I quite like them.

[mmimzie]

4 hours ago, AdHocGames said:

I've only played a couple of games with the new rules, but i like it. I've used a Zombie horde army for the most part since Sigmar launched, and to be honest with the way summoning was working, it was too easy. Give me a few turns and i'd fill most of the board with Zombies. Now it takes more thought for me to win and i have to make sacrifices to do so.
I also really like the fact you don't have to list what your summoning before hand, which opens up a heap of tactical options.

I was thinking of making a zombie horde myself. How was it???  Really wanna go big on it, but don't know if it would end up being fun???  Are their angles where you can loose? i want a nice 170 zombie list. it makes me drool to think about it.

 

3 hours ago, AaronWIlson said:

Hey guys I'm new here. Can anyone explain to me how summoning works according to the GHB please?

As far as what has been leaked summoning lets you set aside a pool of your points from your army. So lets say you have a 2k point list. You can spend 1k on your core army, and then set aside 1k points, and you can use that 1k points to summon units throughout the game. 

Pros:

You can summon whatever you want. So you can summon solutions to a problem

Odds are you can finish set up before you opponent so you can choose who goes first

Basicly deep strike, but you can shoot and charge (though no casting)

 

Cons:

You pay full price for the models you summon.

If your summoners die before you summon all you want, you just lost alot of points.

no infinite summoning.

[amysrevenge]

Yeah, I'm still interested to see if things like minimum Battleline and maximum Behemoths have to be followed at all times.

Do you need to have those 3 Battleline units on the board at the end of Set Up, or are they part of what you're going to summon, or what? 

Can you go past the maximum of Leaders or Behemoths on the board through summoning, or is it a maximum at any one time, or is it a maximum over the length of the game, or what?  ie. if the max for your game is 3 Behemonths, is that no more than 3 deployed during Set Up, but then you can summon in as many more as you like, or is it no more than 3 on the board at once, so if one dies you can summon another, or is it 3 over the whole game, and once they die you can't replace them?  Lots of ways it could go.

[RuneBrush]

5 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Basicly deep strike, but you can shoot and charge (though no casting)

The new FAQs have confirmed that a summoned Wizard is able to cast in the turn they appear

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

The new FAQs have confirmed that a summoned Wizard is able to cast in the turn they appear

The rules in the FAQ are specific to the base game not including the generals hand book, Which are rules that replace rules for the base game and ignore parts of the FAQ. 

 

FOr instance in the FAQ it states you can make your save unfailable and make rolling to hit ununfailable with enough modifiers. However, the rules of one change this is that rolls of one always fail. So it's very clear the FAQ is strictly ignoring the generals hand book.

The changed summoning rules state that summoned wizards can't cast on the turn in which they were summoned. My memory has been wrong in the pasted, but from what i remember this is indeed the case.

[daedalus81]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

i want a nice 170 zombie list. it makes me drool to think about it.

 

You are the king of masochists.

[daedalus81]

1 hour ago, amysrevenge said:

Yeah, I'm still interested to see if things like minimum Battleline and maximum Behemoths have to be followed at all times.

Do you need to have those 3 Battleline units on the board at the end of Set Up, or are they part of what you're going to summon, or what? 

Can you go past the maximum of Leaders or Behemoths on the board through summoning, or is it a maximum at any one time, or is it a maximum over the length of the game, or what?  ie. if the max for your game is 3 Behemonths, is that no more than 3 deployed during Set Up, but then you can summon in as many more as you like, or is it no more than 3 on the board at once, so if one dies you can summon another, or is it 3 over the whole game, and once they die you can't replace them?  Lots of ways it could go.

You have to make a valid army so the battleline needs to be there before you split off points for summons.

[amysrevenge]

Just now, daedalus81 said:

You have to make a valid army so the battleline needs to be there before you split off points for summons.

OK, but then does it have to stay valid with the addition of summons?  Can you keep summoning Leaders all day long, as long as you were legal at the end of Set Up?

[daedalus81]

39 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

OK, but then does it have to stay valid with the addition of summons?  Can you keep summoning Leaders all day long, as long as you were legal at the end of Set Up?

Not sure - there could be some paragraphs we haven't seen yet that addresses it.  I'm hunting for it though.

[amysrevenge]

Yeah, it's still unclear enough that all the hot takes in the world are a bit premature.  Even mine lol.

[Kevin K]

The way it read to me was that you chose your allegiance after you complete deployment, implying it is based on your army at that point in time and has to meet all minimums and maximums allowed.

Summoning points are simply a bank of unallocated points that you can use when you summon things.  The restrictions on what you can summon are based on the warscroll rules of units you have on the table at any given time.  I think the big heavy stuff is balanced by being harder to summon.  The non-faction stuff is balanced by rule of what your faction's wizards can summon.

It absolutely gives you a lot of flexibility, but that is its primary benefit at this point and it has some big risks.