Balewind Vortex

[Melcar]

So I just bought the Balewind Vortex for my army, led by Arkan the Black, and what do I find, that I cant use it with him... WTF...

Anyways I now have two questions!

1) Is there anyway within the rules to remove the monster keyword from Arkhan? Like having him dismounting his huge skeleton pony?

2) If there is not any RAW way to remove/change his keywords, has anyone here allowed monsters atop a Balewind Vortex? I'm asking because Lord Kroak can be on it, but not Arkhan! That seems its not to balance the power, its because of reasons... So if Lord Kroak can be atop Balewind Vortex, should we not just allow Arkhan or Nagash too? What I mean is, has anyone experienced any imbalance by putting a unit with monster keyword on top of this? When I say imbalance I mean in power!

I really need som good advice here, since a huge plan just went through the floor, and what was supposed to be a cool buy, now just feels like a waste of money!

 

Thanks

Cheers

 

[Aginor]

Being a Monster (or not) is something that I don't fully understand either.

I thought  I had understood that monsters would be creatures lacking intelligence.
That made sense because it explains why it cannot benefit from cover (it doesn't understand the concept of taking cover) .
So a Slann wouldn't be a monster because he really is an intelligent toad that happens to be in a Palanquin.

...except that is wrong apparaently?

Razordons and Salamanders are NOT monsters for some reason....

The Zombie Dragon is, OK. But if a Zombie Dragon is ridden by a Vampire Lord why shouldn't it be able to take cover? The Vampire understands the concept....
Same for a Troglodon, Bastiladon and the like.
 

So it is purely about size after all? Would kinda make sense.

Perhaps the Slann is just barely small enough to take cover, while a Bastiladon isn't?
What's the smallest Monster?

[rokapoke]

27 minutes ago, Aginor said:

What's the smallest Monster?

Khorgorath?

[Aginor]

4 hours ago, rokapoke said:

Khorgorath?

Probably.

Hmmm really not that much bigger than a Slann.

On the other hand calling a Slann a monster would be weird as well..

[Melcar]

34 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

It's not banned from tournaments, it's costed to play, and mmonsters aren't allowed for good reasons lol.

Do you want to go back to lords of changes on balewinds, or archaon or Nagash?  As that's what you're asking for.

To be serious... I just want there to be fairness in who can use it. Thats it... And as of right now it would not seem so, imo!

[rokapoke]

2 minutes ago, Aginor said:

On the other hand calling a Slann a monster would be weird as well..

 

1 minute ago, Killax said:

A magic skull enfused tornado with plateau on top is weird too

"Weird" is very much a relative term when we're talking about a game that allows a disgruntled frog to magically remember his old friends into battle.

[Melcar]

My friends and I met a couple of days ago, and we got into quite a heated argument, because wouldn’t you know, the guy who play Seraphon and Stormcast had bought a Vortex for his Kroak. I argued, that I would like to change that rule, so monsters could use it as well, which he did not take well at all. (My problem is, I play Death, I have no ranged units, him using a Vortex is insta win for him). So, this went back and forth... Him being adamant that monster can’t use it and that he wouldn't use it against me. My argument was, that it would be more fun to both be able to use it that none of us... He did mention that I could use it with my Necromancer, but what a necromancer gets out of it compared to Kroak is laughable at best.

Well we dropped the topic and had a nice evening nonetheless...

So... we really didn't find any solution. I don't like the idea of being played against with a handicap of him not being allowed to use his vortex because my faction is "weak" (as in no ranged). It’s like saying: "against you I won’t use all my weapons or all my best, because then you won’t win, poor you" or "You are too easy if I give it my all", and since he's adamant of not allowing me to use it with my good spell casters, I fear we are in a jam. Granted I haven't bought Arkhan, much less Nagash yet, and we still don't play with multiple k point armies, so the problem hasn't materialized yet, and I might be jumping to conclusions about the outcome of eventualities, but during my D&D time, it has usually been a good idea to reflect on these things in advance, to not have entire game nights ruined by under-reflected discussions... My suggestions would simply be to allow monsters, IF they also have the HERO WIZARD keyword. Thus, still eliminating dragons and stuff like that, but allowing the big/good spellcasters to use it...

How would you guys rule/assess this dilemma?

Thanks

Cheers

PS: Things that can use the Vortex:

Lord Kroak – 450

Thanquol and Boneripper – 450

Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage – 380

Coven Throne – 260

Luminak of Hysh with White Battlemage – 240

Screaming Bell – 200

 

[Tasman]

Bring some screaming units, i.e. terrorgeist. That should take him off of there.

[Squirrelmaster]

@Tasman Kroak's pretty hard to take down with screaming units, unless you have lucky rolls or about 3 terrorgheists and a screaming skull catapult all targeting him together.

Personally I'm hoping that GW will either drop the vortex from matched play, or massively re-write its warscroll. Maybe let melee fighters attack the vortext itself, and give a wounds characteristic or something. Or have it only stay up for one turn. Right now, it's just completely broken no matter what points cost you assign it — you just can't put a fair price on completely shutting down melee, when so many existing armies are totally reliant on melee.

[Tasman]

1 hour ago, Squirrelmaster said:

@Tasman Kroak's pretty hard to take down with screaming units, unless you have lucky rolls or about 3 terrorgheists and a screaming skull catapult all targeting him together.

Personally I'm hoping that GW will either drop the vortex from matched play, or massively re-write its warscroll. Maybe let melee fighters attack the vortext itself, and give a wounds characteristic or something. Or have it only stay up for one turn. Right now, it's just completely broken no matter what points cost you assign it — you just can't put a fair price on completely shutting down melee, when so many existing armies are totally reliant on melee.

No need to get rid of the vortex. It's usually banned from tournaments anyway. And 100 pts is a lot to pay for something that lasts one turn. Just make it that named characters can't use the thing. And yeah, you're right, the terrorgeist wouldn't do old Croak in.... zombie dragon would/could work though.

[Squirrelmaster]

I always figured "it's usually banned from tournaments" was a pretty good reason to drop or change something. And I agree that if it only lasted one turn, they could probably lower the points cost or make it easier to cast.

I suppose another option would be to let players unbind an opponent's vortex in their own hero phase, using up a casting slot. It wouldn't be a perfect solution, though.

The more I think about it, the more I feel like my personal preference for making the vortex tournament-usable would be to treat it as an extension of the model on top — increase their wounds and save, but let everyone measure to the vortex as though it were part of the wizard model.

[Melcar]

I just want to finger of dust something at 36 inch range... is that too much to ask? ?

[Arkiham]

It's not banned from tournaments, it's costed to play, and mmonsters aren't allowed for good reasons lol.

Do you want to go back to lords of changes on balewinds, or archaon or Nagash?  As that's what you're asking for.