Khorne vs Tzeentch 2k List

[fredster4050]

Quote

 

I'm going to be playing a very spell-killy Tzeentch list soon, I don't know it's exact composition but it chucks out lots of MW spell death as well as some Skyfires.

In regard a build (and I'm still learning) my initial thoughts were:

Lord on Jugger - MotD  Violent Urgency (General) 140

3 Mighty SkullCrushers - 160

3 Mighty SkullCrushers - 160

3 Mighty SkullCrushers - 160

Brass Stampede 80

Bloodsecrator - 120

Slaughterpriest - 100

Slaughterpriest - 100

5 Blood Warriors - 100

5 Blood Warriors - 100

10 Blood Reavers - 70

10 Blood Reavers - 70

Gore Pilgrims - 80

Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster -360 

10 Fleshounds 200

My thinking was that the Crushers are quite magic resistant and that the Bloodthirster and Fleshounds can chuck out the positive dispells as well as being quite killy themselves. The Bloodsecrator's portal is catching a lot of the table and everything is in small units to cut down on some of the unit based spell effect that Tzeentch throw out, plus it's only 4 drops.

I've also yet to decide what to take for the other 2 battalion earned artefacts

Advice and guidance welcome!

 

 

[Percy Verance]

The brazen rune, 2+ save Vs wounds and mortal wounds from spells. I'd stick that on the bloodsecrator.

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[misthv]

7 hours ago, fredster4050 said:

I'm going to be playing a very spell-killy Tzeentch list soon, I don't know it's exact composition but it chucks out lots of MW spell death as well as some Skyfires.

In regard a build (and I'm still learning) my initial thoughts were:

Lord on Jugger - MotD  Violent Urgency (General) 140

3 Mighty SkullCrushers - 160

3 Mighty SkullCrushers - 160

3 Mighty SkullCrushers - 160

Brass Stampede 80

Bloodsecrator - 120

Slaughterpriest - 100

Slaughterpriest - 100

5 Blood Warriors - 100

5 Blood Warriors - 100

10 Blood Reavers - 70

10 Blood Reavers - 70

Gore Pilgrims - 80

Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster -360 

10 Fleshounds 200

My thinking was that the Crushers are quite magic resistant and that the Bloodthirster and Fleshounds can chuck out the positive dispells as well as being quite killy themselves. The Bloodsecrator's portal is catching a lot of the table and everything is in small units to cut down on some of the unit based spell effect that Tzeentch throw out, plus it's only 4 drops.

I've also yet to decide what to take for the other 2 battalion earned artefacts

Advice and guidance welcome!

 

 

I'd merge the two BW units to make more out of the Slaughterpriest prayers! And maybe the reavers too... I understand the Bloodtithe aspect but not sure if it pays off in your current build! 

[Killax]

My first question is how many Skyfires you expect. The downside of Slaughterpriests and Gore Pilgrims in general is that it's relatively easy to punish if you can snipe out the Slaughterpriests and Bloodsecrator, which Skyfires happen to do extremely well. To counter this we usally thake a lot of bodies aswell which might turn the tides, a lot of bodies this list doesn't have. So for a more casual setting you would do fine. For a high competative setting this list feels too brittle.

[Jharen]

I feel like you're putting too many points into the WoK Bloodthirster here.  Sure he's a threat, but he's easy to take down because he's just one target with 14 wounds.  If you had a purpose for him that served to seriously cripple your opponent, that'd be one thing - such as a 30 Bloodletter unit.

Break that 360 points down at you're looking at another Bloodsecrator, 3 more Skullcrushers, and a Bloodstoker.  More Bloodwarriors or a 30 block of Bloodletters is also an option.  Those are far superior to what that Bloodthirster is bringing.  The Flesh hounds can serve as mobile unbinding platforms, but I feel like 5 is enough for that if you're set on including them.  Ideally your forcing rerolls on successful casting should be enough to break down spell damage though. Grab another Slaughterpriest, because you're going to be losing them more than likely so having a spare couldn't hurt.  I'm of the mind that if you go Gore Pilgrims, then go full into it with the Slaughterpriests, because that's what it does well.

Overall the problem with your list is that you've got your threats in easily targeted packages.  Bloodthirster and Lord on Juggernaut.  You need to amp up the rest of your force by bolstering your warriors and skullcrushers into larger numbers so that they pull pressure off your Lord, Slaughterpriests, and Bloodsecrator.

[Salyx]

Perhaps you could go with the Brass Stampede all the way. My 1500 points list is a full Brass Stampede with an extra Bloodsecrator. 

The Lord is equipped with 5+ ward and +1 Rend weapon, the Bloodsecrator has the Brass Rune. 

This will not help a lot against Skyfires; However, your enemy will not have much fun at spellcasting. 

I don`t know how many points you are playing, but a Valkia would be a nice addition as well. Hide her until some Skyfires pass her and then jump out and get them. 

[fredster4050]

 

On 6/8/2017 at 9:57 PM, Killax said:

My first question is how many Skyfires you expect. The downside of Slaughterpriests and Gore Pilgrims in general is that it's relatively easy to punish if you can snipe out the Slaughterpriests and Bloodsecrator, which Skyfires happen to do extremely well. To counter this we usally thake a lot of bodies aswell which might turn the tides, a lot of bodies this list doesn't have. So for a more casual setting you would do fine. For a high competative setting this list feels too brittle.

I'm not expecting more than 6 Skyfires. It is a friendly game but his Tzeentch list has killed all before it with the high Spell/Skyfire MW output. I think I can counter the spells but putting paid to the Skyfires is tricky and I'm not sure what/whether there is a counter, other than bodies?

Ditching the Bloodthirster is no problem, he always feels a little too much of a points sink/big red target!

Maybe:

ord on Jugger - MotD  Violent Urgency (General) 140

3 Mighty SkullCrushers - 160

3 Mighty SkullCrushers - 160

3 Mighty SkullCrushers - 160

3 Mighty SkullCrushers - 160

Brass Stampede 80

Bloodsecrator - 120

Slaughterpriest - 100

Slaughterpriest - 100

Slaughterpriest - 100

10 Blood Warriors - 200

10 Blood Warriors - 200

10 Blood Reavers - 70

Gore Pilgrims - 80

Bloodstoker -80

90 points left....??

[Killax]

I like the look of it, amping the wounds and speed is our general awnser to it. Something Murderhost does well also, or The Goretide.

70 points into 10 extra Bloodreavers seems like a good plan.

1 unit of Skullcrushers could become Wrathmongers aswell.

[misthv]

3 hours ago, Killax said:

I like the look of it, amping the wounds and speed is our general awnser to it. Something Murderhost does well also, or The Goretide.

70 points into 10 extra Bloodreavers seems like a good plan.

1 unit of Skullcrushers could become Wrathmongers aswell.

I wouldn't bother switching for wrathmongers... they're vulnerable against shooting, tzeentch doesn't rely upon any heavy hitters in combat phase, skullcrushers has 4+ ignore wounds/mortal wounds from spells etc! 

[Killax]

27 minutes ago, misthv said:

I wouldn't bother switching for wrathmongers... they're vulnerable against shooting, tzeentch doesn't rely upon any heavy hitters in combat phase, skullcrushers has 4+ ignore wounds/mortal wounds from spells etc! 

Well a Lord of Change is good, beaty, monsterous and doesnt like hitting himself either.

[misthv]

True, but wouldn't be too hard to avoid meleeng mongers w him though! But everyone is free to choose  I find 180p of wrathmongers often being a "waste" of points against a shooty army! 

[Jharen]

Here's what I'm running that's been successful, for reference.

Bloodsecrator - The Brazen Rune - 120

Slaughterpriest - Bronzed Flesh - 100

Slaughterpriest - Bronzed Flesh - 100

10x Blood Warriors - 200

10x Blood Warriors - 200

10x Bloodreavers - 70

10x Bloodreavers - 70

Gore Pilgrims - 80

Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut (General) - Gorecleaver - (Command trait varies) - 140

6x Mighty Skullcrushers - 320

3x Mighty Skullcrushers - 160

3x Mighty Skullcrushers - 160

Brass Stampede - 80

Bloodstoker - Talisman of Burning Blood - 80

Valkia the Bloody - 120

 

2000/2000

Sometimes I run a 3rd Slaughterpriest instead of Valkia, and I find both are equally effective in the list for difference reasons.  If going against Skyfires and running Valkia, don't be overly aggressive with her.  Keep her in the far back, out of range, and let your opponent focus on your other units.  When you have enough Blood tithe, move her forward in your hero phase, whip her with the Bloodstoker, then move in the movement phase and charge her in.  Apply Bronzed Flesh and/or Killing Frenzy and Lord on Juggernauts buff to further increase her power during this move.  This insane move across the table may take your opponent completely off guard and allow you to target down something critical.

[fredster4050]

Good replies all, many thanks. I'll let you know my final composition and how I got on.

[Killax]

1 hour ago, fredster4050 said:

Good replies all, many thanks. I'll let you know my final composition and how I got on.

In general a good fast backbone will work out. If your still in the process of creating the army you could also consider the Murderhost and The Goretide routes as alternatives to the Skullcrushers.

The beauty of most of the BoK designs is that they will work out rather well under most circumstances. If you are dealing with tons of ranged attacks (also non Tzeentch) I do have to say that Gorepilgrims isn't supporting such armies extremely well because they do not cover speed improvements, do cover armour save improvements but are rather squishy themselves and will go down against enough shooting even if it does not have Rend or Mortal wound options, as a 5+ save only does so much for you.

In regards to Wrathmongers, so far they havn't dissapointed me, if they become the prime shooting target or magic target it means other units can continue. Between them they often have enough wounds and even a single Wrathmonger can do the work of the whole unit (support and monster awnser) so they really matter till the last model. Something that applies much less so for many of our other units.

[kozokus]

The more i look at gore pilgrim, the more i want to run 80 point of fleshy units instead. 80 points for rerolling prayers and having a 30" banner seems more and more expensive. I d rather make room for another secrator.

[Killax]

3 hours ago, kozokus said:

The more i look at gore pilgrim, the more i want to run 80 point of fleshy units instead. 80 points for rerolling prayers and having a 30" banner seems more and more expensive. I d rather make room for another secrator.

Well, Gorepilgrims was really made for Slaughterpriests and with that it also thakes over all the weaknesses the basic Slaughterpriest has, which is still working with a 50/50 chance of a prayer working and in this case more or less forcing you to thake 2, which is a lot of points to invest.

However, the places where they do work well would be against low shooting armies (such as Khorne armies) and high numbers of magic, as we can still attempt to unbind quite well with them.

All in all Slaughterpriest is cool but the prime reason as to why I don't consider it amonst our "competative mandatory" Battalions has to do with it specifically not adressing the sole weakness the army possesses without Missle attacks, which is the simple weakness of speed, better said movement.
We have multiple Battalions who do adress speed and these are the Battalions Ive put my vision on since the start. Murderhost doesn't dissapoint, neither does The Goretide, the one thing to do keep in mind for the both of them is that you do 'force' yourself into going knee deep into Daemons or Bloodbound. Obviously doing this isn't a bad choice but for modelling purposes you might bet bored with it.

Cheers,

[kozokus]

9 minutes ago, Killax said:

 

3 hours ago, kozokus said:

The more i look at gore pilgrim, the more i want to run 80 point of fleshy units instead. 80 points for rerolling prayers and having a 30" banner seems more and more expensive. I d rather make room for another secrator.

Well, Gorepilgrims was really made for Slaughterpriests and with that it also thakes over all the weaknesses the basic Slaughterpriest has, which is still working with a 50/50 chance of a prayer working and in this case more or less forcing you to thake 2, which is a lot of points to invest.

However, the places where they do work well would be against low shooting armies.

Precisely. Half of the prayers need your opponent to be in16 range before moving, which is something your opponent can easily negate and the other half is odd when you follow a msu style of gameplay to maximise the blood tithe.

All in all the priest is the only khorne hero that has a serious chance of beeing useless by simply failing his casting of prayers, not even talking about making the sucessful roll useful.

Compared to this, bloodstockers and bloodsecrators works 100% of the time and the lash guy helps you to get closer.

[Jharen]

I think Gore Pilgrims can work in a competitive environment well enough.  Is it going to be the best?  No.  But if you want the best then just run one of the many net lists floating around for dealing with the current meta.

If I was to run a more competitive list with Gore Pilgrims it'd probably be something roughly like:

Allegiance: Khorne
Wrath Of Khorne Bloodthirster (360)
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
Skulltaker (100)
Bloodsecrator (120)
- Artefact: The Brazen Rune 
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Bronzed Flesh
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy
Bloodstoker (80)
- Artefact: Talisman of Burning Blood 
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes
30 x Bloodletters (300)
30 x Bloodletters (300)
20 x Bloodletters (200)
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxes
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes
Murderhost (20)
Gore Pilgrims (80)

Total: 2000/2000
 

You'd be able to get a first turn charge off easily with the 20x Bloodletter unit, with Killing Frenzy on them sitting at a 4+ to mortal wound.  Throw bronzed flesh on your Bloodsecrator to get him to a 2+ save.   If you can place him on a terrain he'll be at a 1+ which will help cancel out any rend against him.  If your local allows prayers to stack then just run killing frenzy twice and stack your Bloodletters up to a 3+ mortal wounding.   Keep your bloodletter units that don't first turn charge as wide spread as possible across the middle of the board to deny your opponent movement options.

[Killax]

@Jharen well it can be amongst the best but the meta and the game reward long range missle attacks so well that you are either part of that or so fast that you can too reach the other side in roughly 2 turns of movement. Again this is the only part where Slaughterpriests do not really assist the army extremely well. 16" threat ranges are good, certainly, however they are, because they have to be done in the Hero Phase also not the same shooting as movement can assist shooting in threat range aswell.

From my perspective the above list is fine, so are many others, the thing is that Murderhost doesnt really require Gore Pilgrims to be great because it works perfectly fine without it aswell. While I do technically like the option to scoot up two Bloodletter bombs the fact of the matter is that two Slaughterpriests could also be 20 additional Bloodletters and running one Bloodsecrator is asking for trouble on a higher competitive level. 

[Jharen]

Sure, like I said, it's never going to be the best.  And for those who are playing at that higher competitive level they are always going to be extremely limited in their options as to what works within the Khorne allegiance.  Even the best that BoK has to offer still falls short in what the highest competitive meta looks like.  BoK failed in one major area, and that is that it offered us mobility via Battalions but not also in our allegiance abilities.  That means that our highest mobility still sits outside the Khorne allegiance, because you can still run those battalions alongside Sayl and move clear across a table in the first turn.  Murder Host plus Sayl, plus a WoK BT, a Bloodstoker, and you're going to get wherever you want to be in one move and charge, and be mortal wounding on a 4+.

Sadly, if you want to topple the current meta I just don't suspect we have it in the Khorne allegiance still, because the highest mobility still rests outside the Khorne allegiance.  That could change of course, as well the meta changes over time, and GW has shown they aren't afraid to make changes where it's needed.  It's why I don't build armies to be hyper competitive though, nor do I build them based entirely around the current meta, because that's just a silly waste of time and money in my own situation, and when a game is so open to change at a moments notice.  But we all play our game different and we all enjoy different aspects of it.  Which is my point about Gore Pilgrims.  Is it going to win you the highest level of tournament?  Doubtful.  But it works fine, and in most instance I suspect you'll do well with it provided you aren't trying to take home any trophies at the end of the day.  You just have to determine that based off your local, and how far the competitive nature of the game has a root there.