Andrew G

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!Mortal Realm: HyshOrruk Megaboss (150)- General- Trait: Brutish Cunning- Artefact: Aetherquartz BroochWurrgog Prophet (160)- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War CryOrruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of GorkOrruk Warchanter (110)Orruk Warchanter (110)Orruk Warchanter (110)15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)- Pig-iron ChoppasArdfist (120)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 158 I could drop 5'ardboyz to fit in some techy stuff like balewind/portal but it has been serving me well so far. I'm not usually using Zap Em! until turn 2 at the earliest anyway to secure the +1 hit +1 wound and 6+FnP. Which usually allows my Wurgogg to close into range before I start unleashing +3 or +4 to cast (if they have 2 monsters within 24") spells. I've considered adding a wardock as well to add another +1, but the wizards are really not the driving force of the army and I don't want to give up any of my existing hero slots to fit him in.

Almost exactly what I'm playing right now. Big Waagh w/ all IJ except for one Wurgog. Your observations about the trade-offs are pretty much inline with my thinking as well. 2+/2+ Goregruntas w/ warchanter is one of the scariest hammer units in the game. 'Ardboyz punch way above their points cost in Big Waaagh, both offensively and defensively (most of my lists are 'ardfists which probably ties into my thoughts on their defensive prowess). The real gamechanger that I didn't really anticipate is the inclusion of Zap Em! +2 to cast either teleport from weirdnob, the horde nuke or fights last from the Wurgogg is absolutely massive.

I think I remember watching a battle report with Leo about month ago, if I'm remember correctly it was IJ-Ironsunz list with pretty similar Troop/Hero set-ups but there are some pretty big differences (Big Waaagh over IJ, Wurgog over fungoid+scuttletide, 'ardfist over Ironfist to name a few). As far as CP generation, I'm not entirely relying on Broach, I have the Wurgogg as well. In the handful of games I've played, CP hasn't been a problem, I've been able to Ere' We Go first round or 2 and have enough in the bank for 'ardfist and the occasional reroll 1's to hit on the Gore Gruntas. The Megaboss having Brutish Cunning also sidesteps the CP issue a bit. I've thought of including more Bonesplitterz elements, but decided against it. I think they're only really worth it when you're investing in the whole range of support pieces, and I really don't have the hero slots or points to make both the IJ and Bonesplitterz element of the list work optimally. As far as Rogue Idol, I think it's probably an overkill for casting when you have Zap Em and items to help ensure your big spells go off. I wouldn't trade the 6ggs + Warchanter for it in this type of list. I do think Rogue Idol is pretty decent in a pure Bonesplitterz list though.

Wanted to share what I've been running lately. Not really reinventing the wheel here, but I've went through a few iterations and settled on this being the "best" all-comers list I can come up with. I'm still kind of debating whether I should split up one of the 'ardboyz units, but keeping them in mid-size units makes spending a CP for 'ardfist a lot more efficient at the expense of some versatility and having a truly sacrificial pieces. I've been playing mostly in your face IJ lists. Wondering what your guys experience is playing slower Big Waaagh!

Yea, completely agree. The only way I would have kept running it is if they allowed you try multiple times to spawn a new units. I just can't build a list/gamplan around a coin-flip ability that you can't hedge against.

6 Gore Gruntas + Warchanter is one of the best/ if not the best hammers in the game right now at least It is sad Brutes got squatted though, they're in this weird middling area where they don't hit as hard as GGs (mostly due to GGs have two attack profiles) and are much slower; with the only upside being that they're marginally tanker per point and less buff dependent.

Yea, I'm completely with you. The trade off right now between Ironfist/'ardfist is tempo. You can really impose your will the first few turns in Ironfist (grab board control, smash off screens, having many CP in the bank for Ironsunz CA, +1 to hit, etc.) The 'ardfist has a latter payoff, but as it stands, it's an absolutely huge pay-off (my buddy had one game where he summoned close to 1k points of 'ardboyz w/ some above-average broach rolls T2.) and it doesn't cripple the rest of your army/plan to really make it happen. You're basically playing in the same way as a conservative Ironfist+Ironsunz player (conservative in this case just meaning they're not boosting and charging their entire army T1) but with the massive summoning upside. That said, I honestly think 'ardfist plays best in a Big Waagh! with the buffs having no proximity dependency and still having access to Might Destroyer with Brutal Cunning and Warchanters.

No doubt what I think will happen (one use per unit that was destroyed) will be a bigger nerf than not being to summon multiple units from one destroyed unit. I hope that's the half-measure they take, rather than basically squatting the battalion by making it one use per dead unit. You definitely have to focus on CP generation to make the battalion work as well, but I think it's misnomer that you're investing that much to nuke your own units to get the summon off . What I've seen in practice is MSU ardboyz screening and being teleported to control board space. One of those units usually gets knocked out by turn 2 and they're dumping between 4-8 CP w/ Broach to summon 'ardboyz. It rarely limits their ability to use Mighty Destroyer, the lists are already geared to generate, preserve, or avoid using CP, so it's really not much of a sacrifice in that department. I regularly play against guys who place in the top 20 consistently at LVO, and I'm sorry but it is a real competitive threat. Not to say the other top armies don't have some equally ridiculous things, but I don't really think there's much of argument that this is only good on paper.

That change pretty much kills the battalion IMO, everyone would just default back to Ironfist. I think Malakree's suggestion that you can't get multiple units from one being destroyed pretty much fixes it. If I had to bet, I think they'll just make it so you can only use the command ability once per destroyed unit to be consistent with some of the other FAQs on similar abilities.

Also this, summoning is really broken in lower point total games. That, and most the suggestions you're going to get here are going to be in context of player's experience in 2k games (i.e everyone telling you to flood the board and run on objectives early is assuming you'll have enough bodies/ board coverage to make that viable).

It's impossible to tell in a game with this many variables why you're consistently losing, but highly doubt it's because of the army match-ups (IJ actually has great tools to deal with Seraphon w/ Smashing and Bashing & Mighty Destroyers for example). I bet that if you were to switch armies before you played, the Seraphon player would probably still win the majority of his games. I was in a similar situation as your Seraphon friend with GHB 1 Ironjawz. It really didn't matter what composition I brought, as long as the army wasn't crafted explicitly to be completely, completely horrible; I would win 85% of the time in my small group. A few people started complaining about IJ so much (usually coupled with how under-powered their army is), that I actually did offer to switch armies with anyone I played against, which most refused to do for a multitude of reasons. The chief reason being "I want to win with my own army" which I completely empathize with, but I also think there was a sub-conscious motivation to not take me up on the offer because it would demolish the narrative they built about why they were losing. You have the right mentality though, and I would just ask the Seraphon player to narrate his decision making process and co-pilot your army the next few times you play against him. Most good spirited competitive players like to raise the play-level of the people they play with , and would be more than willing to help their buddies if you just let him know the situation.

Is everyone playing 'ardfist that you can spend as many CP as you want and summon as many 'ardboyz as you have successes? Tom from Warhammer Weekly made a comment that they've ruled in other books that anything that requires a trigger/condition in order to use a CP has been ruled that you can only respond once to that trigger/condition and specifically called out 'ardfist players for abusing this before the F.A.Q Personally, I've been absolutely wrecking with this, but it's obviously contingent on being able to use multiple CP to summon 'ardboyz after a teleport/ dying as a screen. I'm not big on the Brutes, but I wanted everything else exactly as is and that leaves 280 points leftover. I don't own enough 'ardboyz to include 15 more with how many I typically spawn throughout the game, and Brutes aren't exactly terrible .... Edit* I've also ran this as Ironsunz, probably depends on your meta/terrain whether you're extremely worried about your warchanter getting sniped and want to hedge against at the expense of aetherquartz. The charge in your opponents phase is really good if you failed the teleport and your opponent is actively avoid the 3 intial 'ardboyz units.

Ok boys, I've been off the forum/youtube in the wake of the book release because I didn't want to fall into the group-think. I finally got around to crunching some numbers and got some games in and have some thoughts. So first list is: I'm guessing most people have built some variation of this list, but it has the tools for every situation. The small GG units are there to pin and destroy screens, and even if there isn't a need for that in a game, they're good buff sponges along with the 5 brutes if your hammers are out of range or dead in the late game. If your opponent makes a mistake or skimped on adequate screening the MK and 6-GG unit w/ Warchanter destroy just about everything now. I don't miss Waaagh! at all, Warchanter buffs more than compensate and it plays into the "waves" approach rather than "I need to optimize this one combat round" which meant a lot of all-in plays and hoping for double-turns. The MK is an absolute damage sponge, very rarely is it efficient for your enemy to take him down. The item/command traits are p. flexible too. I ran one game with ethereal amulet and Brutish Cunning instead, opting to drop the Ironfist because of the overlap with Brutish Cunning. Think their might be an argument for mean'un and using ignax/mirrored instead though. All said, really like there's a lot of ways to put together a viable boss. In essence though, with this list you basically keep good spacing, and line-up favorable trades with extremely fast Mighty Destroyer'd /Warchanter buffed units. ------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm also working on 'ardfist list but I keep waffling on the hero set-up and whether to go the Choppas Warclan or not. I havn't got to try out the two list variations I'm thinking about (it's definitely a "feels-bad" list, so it might have to wait for a tourney) but it seems like a no-brainer for our most competitive option. Sure, it probably is going to face some very specific match-ups/terrain set-ups where you can't hide your foot heroes... but under most circumstances it's going to be impossible to grind through that many 'ardboyz. Especially 'ardboyz that can punch back w/ Warchanter. Anyway, I have a lot of pages to sift though since the book release! Just my two cents.

For the most part I like it. Mostly because it leaves the "window of hope" open longer. There's obviously a break-point in every game where even with incredible luck there's no coming back, but initiative roll-offs keep the losing player engaged in the game for much longer rather than disengaging because there's no "catch-up" mechanic. On the flip-side, I've recently been having a ton of negative play experiences where in a close game the ENTIRE game comes down to an initiative roll-off. This can happen as early as T2 or T3 in a lot of cases. It doesn't help that at higher levels of play, the lists are so finely tuned that they can capitalize on a double-turn so well that the games pretty much over.

I could see going something like 30 x 'ardboyz, 10x 'ardboyz, 10x 'ardboyz, 3x GG, 3x GG being optimal. My thought process behind the 4x3GGs is they can spread for objectives and still have the speed to consolidate on the Waaagh! bomb turn/turns, but I could see having some more bodies for objectives, board coverage, and shaman buff could be better. Mixed feelings on the Brutes... I don't think they're a bad choice but I'm probably switching them out for 'ardboyz and buying a CP. The Brutes really do shine in the later turns after Waaagh! bomb, having a unit that can dish out respectable damage with only 1 or 2 Waaaghs does have value, but I think of them as a "win more" option; most games are going to be decided before the Brutes get involved (There are some notable exceptions. For example, against Idoneth alpha-strike they're obviously beasts). I've written at about this at length but I generally value bodies, speed, and survivability over damage output when considering IJ units. On the second point, iI would also take the Fungoid over the second warchanter. It's not just mystic shield(which is great), but also the CP generation. You're going to get a lot more damage output from an extra 2.5 CP over 5 turns than +1 hit over 5 turns. If you're playing with realm spells, it goes further in favor of the fungoid.

I think I'm just going to go the MK loadout from the Bloodtoofs list from here out, so Prophet/Cuirass. That said, I think Ironclad still has use. I'm throwing mystic shield on the 'ardboyz the first turn or two in most cases, so Ironclad will definitely net some value. If I was in a shooting heavy meta I'd probably go Ironclad, or even consider dropping Hysh for an Ethereal Amulet+Ironclad.

Played 3 games over the weekend with the new GHB. I decided to go with more balanced lists, as I tend to gravitate to the skew battalions for competitive play (Gorefist, 'ardfist, ), and wanted to give the Megabattalions a fair shake. Lists: Not much of a difference between the two, the Ironsunz one obviously is a little more geared towards having an extremely scary MK in and outside the Waaagh! round. The Bloodtoofs is more geared for a traditional Waaagh! Bomb and keeping the MK in the back for an additional turn or two. Won all three games (Double Keeper Slaneesh, Mixed GG list: big units of bounderz and stabberz w/ supporting pieces, and finally a Blisterkin list ... I'm guessing he's preparing for the Gristlegore nerf in July.) Anyway, I had a few takeaways. 1: The 30 'ardboy pin w/ Ironsunz is extremely strong. I'm still experimenting with exactly how much I can safely engage, but in every game I was able to clear 2+ chaff screens and lock in a scary horde by piling barely within 3". 2: I still think it's necessary to put a MW save item on the MK. The offensive loadout I went with in the Ironsunz build was complete overkill, I don't think I even needed to swing w/ the fists or tail once. On the other hand, I was constantly worried about the MK going down to MW in each game I played with Ironsunz, and the lists I played against weren't even particularly geared for MW output. 3: As I anticipated, I used Mighty Destroyers once over the course of the three games, and overall think it's a slight nerf in the context of the way I play the game. The guaranteed movement is nice in some cases, but most of the lists I ran had an 80% to 90% chance of activating Mighty Destroyers once during the round. Going from an 80% chance but free, to a 100% chance but costing 1 cp is a slight nerf to me. I know I'm completing discounting the ability to pile-in and attack in the hero, but with Warchanter/Waaagh! having no effect in the hero phase extremely limits its offensive usage. All-in-All, it's still a great ability that can win you games but it's annoying siphoning resources away from Waaagh! Anyway, going to a local tournament next weekend and I'm thinking about bringing a 'ardfist list I've been working on. Haven't locked down the details, but I'm anticipating a bunch of Skaven/FEC players going out for one last round before the July FAQ. The only real solution I've found against them is just to send meat at them and hope they make a mistake... I'll need some luck.

@Malakree Ahhh, ok. I already outlined in the first paragraph of the last post why I don't think it's a good trade, but at least I can follow your logic now. If you're going to pursue that strategy I think you would be much better served by a 'ardfist w/ cogs list. Basically do exactly what you're planning on doing now, but going into T2 ( or T3 if by some miracle you 'ardboyz survive T1) you can just rinse and repeat with another 30 'ardboyz teleported in front of the opponent.

You're going to take bottom of 1. Taking top of 1 and teleporting the 'ardboyz just allows the opposing player to deal with them in their turn 1, freeing them completely going into T2 priority roll. Losing ~1/4th of your army for 1 turn of objectives (if there's no middle objectives T1 this is even worse) and killing off a screen is not a good exchange... Lets assume you planned on taking bottom of T1, if you won the priority roll and choose to go second in T2... Sure, it's not the end of the world, the 'ardboyz are "expendable" (funny perspective to have with a 420 point unit) but they're definitely not netting as much value or helping the pin to the same degree. The opponent is going to clear the 'ardboyz (let's assume you perfectly boxed in his army and he wasn't able to wittle enough down to slip around the unit), where does that leave you going into IJ T2? Like you mentioned, your army is mostly spread to deny hand of gork/deepstrike so you're really not in position for a devastating Waaagh! bomb and you've been admittingly spending CP on reroll 1's to save anyway. Not taking priority T2 doesn't accomplish anything, it's not unsalvagable position, but it's definitely the worse option. Let's just compare expected board-states going into T3 priority roll: Taking priority T2: You've waaagh bombed w/ your 30 'ardboyz alive. You've probably cleared most of a 60 stabbas block, the other block was forced to deal with the 'ardboyz. Rest of your army is healthy, unengaged, and poised to capitalize on T3. Choosing to give opponent priority T2: You've lost the 30 'ardboyz top of T2, they probably weren't able to attack back. You waagh! bomb and send in... I'm guessing a few GGs, maybe the MK... remember your army is spread to deny hand of gork and you've been spending CP on reroll 1's to save; blunting the Waaagh! bomb. You'll be lucky to kill one of the 60 stabba blocks, and that's only if you commit the MK. Half the arrmy is probably locked down at this point and took damage in return (you're not going to be able to activate smashing and bashing.)

@Rock Lobster pretty much already answered. The Waaagh! bomb is to help the board control/pin with the upside of the ability to table w/ good aetherquartz and/or prophet rolls. I play GG too, and I would laugh my ass off if an IJ player took out my screens T1, won initiative going into T2 w/ CP in the bank and charges against my 60 stabba blocks and decided to use his CP to reroll 1's to save/ instead of Waaagh dump into the stabbers (which are at best -1 to hit in this scenario, if the IJ player takes the bottom of 1 he isn't going be in range to Itchy Nuisance/Geminids/Palisade debuff the 'ardboyz.) If you leave a 30 block entirely within 12" of the webspinner w/ sneaky distraction you're an idiot. So, one scenario (Waagh! dump) leaves me as the GG player with a severely weakened stabber block, forcing me to use the remaining one to deal with the '30 ardboyz surrounding the remaints of my army. The other scenario leaves me with an entirely healthy stabba block, who's bonus to wound is going outweigh any survivability benefit the 'ardboyz received from reroll 1's. Basically, not waaagh! bombing allows them to escape the pin much,much easier. It's a pretty clear cut choice.

LeadersMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (420)- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-toothOrruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)Orruk Warchanter (80)Battleline30 x Orruk Ardboys (420)10 x Orruk Ardboys (140)10 x Orruk Ardboys (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)BattalionsIronfist (160)Bloodtoofs (80)Total: 1980 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Wounds: 176 This is a great list, really plays to what I think is good in IJ. This is basically what I was doing with the gorefist last GHB too, 1st turn pin w/ a bunch of 4+ save wounds with the ability to table if you win the initiative going into t2. I'd still bank all the CP for Waaagh! T2 and Battleshock Immunity T1 for the 30' ardboyz but that's just nitpicking. Anyway, A+

I heard you can only purchase 1CP through cutting points. 'ardboyz change is big, definitely going to be the backbone of most lists.

Way ahead of you...

Can't target the same unit to be affected by Mighty Destroyers, so all the strategies being posted revolving around teleporting huge blocks of units and spending two CP to get that unit to fight in the hero phase are not going to work.

First draft of the tourney list: Allegiance: IronjawzMortal Realm: HyshOrruk Megaboss (140)- General- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! - Artefact: The Golden Toof Orruk Megaboss (140)- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch Orruk Warchanter (80)Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)5 x Orruk Brutes (180)- Pair of Brute Choppas5 x Orruk Brutes (180)- Pair of Brute Choppas3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)- Pig-iron Choppas10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)Ardfist (170)Total: 2130 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 179 I didn't bother adjusting the points, but it will equal 2k after the GHB drops. This is definitely the slow and plodding IJ list, bubble wrap army with a couple 'ardboyz and use the first turn to take up board real estate. You're hiding the chanter, with the goal of teleporting him with the weirdnob to an advantageous position before you use the recycle. This has the CP regen to effectively Waaagh bomb and is resilient enough to weather the storm until it can get into position. You have a couple of techie units in Brutes&GGs: Brutes to concentrate more punch on a smaller combat frontage and and the GGs to operate independently (probably shooting up the opponents weakside board edge to threaten small units/ foot heroes hanging back on objectives). Big sacrifice here was dropping the MK, but the ironclad change really,really hurt the MK. You can compensate with some of the artifacts, but I think @Malakree is right in that aetherquartz is still the engine that makes the list run which locks you into Hysh. Also, probably a controversial opinion, but the new mighty destroyer change is actually a slight nerf in my eyes. The opportunity cost of spending a CP for mighty destroyers is too high when Waaagh! exists. There will be very situational uses where it's better, but I'm guessing there's going to a lot of games where I don't use it one time.