Gwendar
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Posts posted by Gwendar
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43 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:
It is kinda funny if you think about it, but with gw always wanting to make the game go faster, it kinda went into a direction towards less drops wins automatically.
Odd, isn't it? I don't think they should've been able to take other factions endless spells, personally... just being able to auto-cast whatever you want was fine. Things like what you're describing, Changehost with 12+ Flamers and Seraphon with Run + double shooting Bastiladons and\or Skink (buffed units of 30-40 can do a lot of MW's at range and melee) Salamander spam are all very top tier in the meta. It's a big reason why I'm really thinking my 21-24 Jezzails lists may have some legs but I also think that 6-12 Fiends and warpgrinders as @Verminlord mentioned are looking to be necessary to keep our big threats off the board for a turn.
KO's "weakness" is that they want to blow up as much stuff T1 and hope for a double. If they don't do that, then generally they will lose if you get priority and can start taking out those ships. Again, hiding units off the board greatly increases those odds. -
11 minutes ago, Darkhan said:
Curious about the 12x fiend list. What else greatness does it include?
Eh.. it can't really include much else honestly. I have a Bell with Plague along with the Bridge to throw the Fiends forward, but you could drop both and take a Warpgrinder (not worth having 2 unless you plan to bring them in during a different turn) and another foot hero (Grey Seer with Skitterleap ideally) or Clanrats.
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On 8/4/2020 at 3:18 PM, Xasto said:
What do you guys think is the best loadout for MSU of Vulkites?
Shields in nearly all cases I would say. MSU's are generally holding objectives or taking lightly guarded\free ones.. the shields lend well to either scenario. I believe the Pick vs Handaxe situation actually maths out about the same on average vs a 4+ save, but the Handaxe is better vs 5+ and 6+ saves.
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2 minutes ago, Coyote said:
@Gwendar How did the TTS game go with 24 Jezzails? Was it 2x12 or another combination.
Didn't get a chance to play it yet unfortunately. I played my first ladder tournament game with the 4 DW's +2x20 Acolytes vs Skink spam with Kroak and 3 Shoot-twice Bastiladons.. everything taking -1 damage. Needless to say I lost that pretty horrifically.. but I don't expect much with that list anyway since it was for fun. That Seraphon list was 100% a direct counter to mine since you really want things to come to the Acolytes rather bringing them to things. They don't work as well in a heavy shooting meta where things constantly outrange them. Doesn't help that for 2 turns, 4 Doomwheels caused a grand total of maybe 8-10 wounds.
I planned to try 24 Jezzails tonight if I can find anyone wanting a game. If I do then I'll be sure to do a batrep. If anyone wants the link to the discord server to come watch or play TTS then just PM me. I stream every game I play.-
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20 hours ago, States said:
How is the order of gnawhole deployment in regards to the new changes with terrain? When do we get to place gnawholes? Before or after choosing territory?
What new changes, specifically? As far as I know nothing really changes.. you setup Gnawholes after territories are chosen but before any models are placed. The same rules will apply for setting them up (keeping X" away from other terrain and objectives) and that's it.
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2 hours ago, fishwaffle2232 said:
I am very interested to hear more about the warpgrinder. I really love the idea of being able to bring the SFs up to melt something. Skitterleap pretty reliable too if you deploy out of unbind range.
I think the trick is getting your Bell and Bombardier to be the last things to deploy. Doing this with the Grinder can kind of hinge on a double turn or else those Fiends will likely be pretty exposed. In this case, they killed about half the HGB unit and a few more ran from BS. The ones left along with the Irondrakes managed to kill 3 Fiends thanks to him winning priority. That could've been a lot worse, but if I got a double it would've been game right there.
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Had a good game vs KO today (Dwarf united list with 20 Deepstriking HGB and 20 Irondrakes with Runelord). Didn't think to get details for a batrep due to my horrible deployment and letting his 2 Frigates get in range to kill heroes. I assumed the game would be over within 20 minutes... however he didn't manage anything but the WLC and 14 Clanrats. In the end, I won 13-3 on Forcing the Hand:
ListSpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: SkitterleapBattleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd & ShieldUnits
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)Artillery
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 170I think this will be my go-to template for any future competitive lists with Fiends. Having them come in via the Grinder works exceptionally well, the only big thing that needs to happen is Skitterleap but worse-case scenario a Gnawhole is nearby. Still not sure how keen I am on the Bell... but I would suffer without that BS bubble with the SV in particular.. and I found I was using all my CP on charge re-rolls (all of which failed) which was nice. SV could also be swapped with 40 Monks + 20 Clanrats, which could be something I experiment with in the future.
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Just now, Skreech Verminking said:
That is massive.
24Jezzails, not even I own that many.
This is why I play TTS; to test ridiculous stuff out and see if it works. After that I'll be trying 12 Stormfiends as it's done reasonably well for some others.
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4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:
That is an incredible tactics review.
although it may not work that great against an Ironjawz army.
Those orks can literally kill your screen in a single turn, even when you have 80-120 of them in front.
And the question then remains unanswered.
what happens when your opponent gets the double turn?
but still, they these tactics are definitely incredible, and I definitely learned a ton from that video
Right, and this was just a general overview to get people thinking. Bottom line is that we just have bad matchups but that's where measuring threat ranges comes in. You can't pre-measure against a double turn generally as you'll just be on the edge of the board and they'll still probably reach you on their double, so that's really just down to luck.
Deployment is definitely the hardest thing to master in my opinion. A lot of the game matters in just those first 2 turns and it all starts with how you're setup. I learned a good deal from this in that regard so... I think I'll try my 24 Jezzails list out today 😅-
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Coach just released this. A very good watch, I would definitely recommend it:
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4 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:
Don’t underestimate the master Moulder ability to bring back the unit of 8 rat ogors on a 5+ 😁
Oh I don't, but the HPA one is free, even if they don't come back at full strength 😉
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5 hours ago, Num said:
@Gwendar Reading pour battreps (thanks by the way!), I had the feeling that stormvermins underperformed both times and acted just like a premium bag of wounds.
Isn't it time to bring the stormfiends back? They can put up a rough fight and survive. Or with a melee loadout (2* warpfire) to make them less dependent on buffs?
Or 8 rat ogors. They don't require a lot of babysitting (from 10dmg (2+) to 32 (6+) on their own) but if there is one master moulder/packmaster nearby, the damage can increase significantly... (Rabid crown + whip = from 17dmg(2+) to over 50 (6+))
I think that unbuffed, rat ogors perform better than stormfiends.
Thanks! I had that feeling too but I mean.. I can admit I didn't use them as well as I could have. They were often out of range of +1 attack after they charged which is what elevates them above Monks in my opinion. The fact that I felt like I had to keep them back multiple turns because Death Frenzy would absolutely not go off hurt them as well. I may give them another chance in a Double DF list with a Warbringer, but outside that I still think they're overcosted compared to just running Monks.. hell, I would even consider running 2 HPA's over them.
Funny you mention that about Fiends though.. had some more Discord discussion last night. I think I'll be giving 2x6 Stormfiends a shot, honestly. No matter what we're always going to have issues with things like Kroak and Tzeentch wiping heroes off the board easily, but against anything else? Man.. they would shred. Even if you're careful with T1 movement and using Bridge then you can give those armies a run for their money. If you count the damage in melee as well then 6 Fiends (Shock Gauntlets) can easily be putting out ~70 damage vs a 4+ with all 3 buffs. Even buffed with just Deranged and a Spark, you're looking at ~50 damage.
As for Rat Ogres.. I would've like to have seen them at 70-80 points, but that isn't to say they're bad at all. Completely unbuffed Fiends vs unbuffed Rat Ogres (including the Fiends in melee with Shock Gauntlets) is actually the same damage on average (20). Giving them +1 to hit brings them up by about 5 which isn't huge, but being able to counter all of the -1 to hit running around is useful. I really like the thought of them, it's just that I keep coming back to 40 Monks. They're cheaper than 8 Rat Ogres and will put out more damage until they drop below 30.
All that said, sitting here for the last 30 minutes practicing mathhammer has led me to the following. Fiends don't get hurt too much from losing that +1 to hit from Vigordust so long as they still get MMMWP (and even with just Deranged + Spark they get ~50 damage vs 4+) and Rabid Crown boosts Rat Ogre damage by a decent amount. I think you can really make the two work together:SpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Master Moulder (100)
- Artefact: Rabid Crown
Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets
8 x Rat Ogors (360)
Artillery
6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 175Now.. the next question is what would be better; 8 Rat Ogres + MM or 2 HPA's? Average damage say's the HPA's, but 2d6" movement and being heavily bracketed can change that real quick. Best against hordes as you can get a lot of bases within 3" and re-rolling those MW dice on the charge means they can do a ton of impact damage, unlike the Rat Ogres. They also ignore spells on a 4+ which is nice, as well as potentially coming back to life and keeping a unit tied up another turn.
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15 hours ago, Blisterfeet said:
More the merrier when it comes to advice. I think I see the issue. I was using them on TTS to hit.objective sitting blobs and chip damage. Admittedly though the swingy nature can lead to frustrating times and for 300 points it's a very valid point to bring something more consistent.
It's a shame as the model is very cool.
I calculated them vs Jezzails and WLC's when it came to killing heroes and just... yeah, not great in that capacity either because of my most repeated phrase; Consistency.
Catapults are pretty badass, I agree, Just a shame the mortar teams were usually better and those aren't even a thing anymore.
14 hours ago, gronnelg said:I made a list. Seems kinda fun, and possibly good? I'm not sure what do to with the last 120 points though. Warpfirethrower and a CP?
Or Cogs maybe? Soulsnare shackels?Honestly I would say a Clawlord is a top pick to give those Stormvermin +1 attack. Without it, they do closer to the same damage as 40 Monks anyway.
9 hours ago, Nikobot said:thanks for the batreps!
I think a doomwheel + WLC list may combo well, they aren't all clamouring for the same buffs that way
I think where im most concerned my skaven fall down is going up against other competently shooty lists, our shooting units apart from fiends just dont do attrition well as we know, have you played many shooty armies?
True, they do combo well, I just tend to have better luck with Jezzails.. that 4 DW list is really just for fun but I wanted to have Acolytes in there for something that can actually delete things that DW's or WLC's can't.
But yeah, I agree on our bad matchups.. with all the shooting combined with superior mobility\range that's been introduced with CoS, Tzeentch, Seraphon and Lumineth we really fit in best against combat armies who need to come to us and our short-range guns (barring Jezzails\WLC's obviously) that are hiding behind Clanrats, if you're playing purely ranged at least. All the above shooting\magic armies will just target whatever they want and remove it before it can do anything. That can be partially solved with the Bridge still, but with the biggest damage coming from 12" shots with that method then most opponents aren't going to leave you with anything they care about when it comes to target selection. The Bridge works best against things that are already halfway up the board and\or when you want to go big on a double turn.
I have my 4 DW + 40 Acolytes list and this one I've been thinking of trying since all I can do is make meme lists after the last 2 unsuccessful weekend tournaments:SpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
20 x Skryre Acolytes (200)
Artillery
12 x Warplock Jezzails (560)
12 x Warplock Jezzails (560)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139Alternatively, drop the Acolytes for 40-60 more Clanrats (60 would mean no Bell though).
Oh, and @Kramer, the best thing about AoS reminders is that you can actually play an army you've never played before on TTS and just act like you're an expert by taking overly long sips of your drink while you read what you're supposed to do in that phase on your other monitor 😉-
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10 hours ago, Verminlord said:
Would be nice if someone getting doubled could at least spend a cp to reroll their priority roll
9 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:Or the person who had the first turn gets +2 to the roll, instead of winning on a higher or the same dice roll then his opponent.
Both reasonable suggestions.. I was having this discussion with my local competitive guys and they suggested the same things. Keeping CP is hard for some armies though (especially with all the things around that can steal\negate your CP or force you to use 2 like with Lumineth) and others (including us with a Warpseer) can just get more easily, giving them an advantage.
I'd say I probably prefer getting a + to the roll or make it somehow affect objectives. Perhaps you can't take any new objectives or the ones you have are worth nothing. That way you can still have an incentive to take a double and table someone, but they may have an extra turn of getting points with what they have left? Just some thoughts.6 hours ago, Blisterfeet said:it's always said to be active in multiple phases. Is it a downside to not have any shooting even if it is inconsistent? (55% hit rate).
I know you didn't ask me, but I just wanted to chime in for what it's worth.
That's our advantage as Skaven is that we can compete in each stage.. though you don't exactly have to, especially with pure Pestilens. That said, yeah Plagueclaws aren't great.. they're like the Mortek Crawlers in that they're very all or nothing except that the Crawlers will actually do something more often than not 😉. The issue isn't the 3\3\-2 profile so much as it's only 1 attack with a random d6\2d6 damage, so it's super swingy by comparison.
Also, if you're running more Monks then I would vouch for Staves. I think that mathhammer says Blades, but by a very marginal amount. You can easily get 30+ of them in range with the Staves which is also when the unit is hitting at it's best anyway. Monks aren't there for attrition, they're there to hit things.. so once they drop below 20-30 then the benefits of the Blades aren't as helpful anyway.
1 hour ago, firtahl said:I've got a couple vermin lords to build. Any suggestions on which 2? I was thinking warpseer and warbringer.
Those would be the 2 I would go for. Warpseer can fit into anything you have while the Warbringer works well with lots of Clanrats\Stormvermin.
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7 hours ago, Coyote said:
Priority roll is dumb.
Many would disagree with you and I tend to see both sides of it, though I lean more towards disliking it. The common argument I see is "well if you got doubled then it's your own fault for not setting up right" but I mean.. it's a gamble.
I either setup to get priority myself, or I don't; I can't see into the future. It's why I tend to play so cagey and reactively, but since most of our shoot is short range that's hard to do properly unless you're against melee armies. Bottom line, if someone outdrops me, makes me go first and I'm already as far back as possible in deployment (or alternatively move Clanrats up to create a wider screen) and they can T1 charge or shoot everything important off the board and then get a double to do it again then... Well, what exactly was I supposed to do there?
It's literally been the cause of me to win sometimes, but obviously I attribute that to luck of getting a higher dice roll than my opponent and being able to make use of it. I think if it's going to stay, something could do with getting changed to make it less impactful (but still impactful overall).
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48 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:
they all apply (highly doubt that).
This is the answer, actually.
So, each of those heroes is going to be able to use the allegiance abilities for their Clan.-
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15 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:
Thanks for the write ups and sounds like you could of gone 2-1 if things had gone differently. I always think having a selection of armies is good in this hobby as you can get jaded from time to time. That's how I justify owing most of chaos 🤣🤣
Yeah, and that was the goal.. I really felt I had that OBR game but taking out my Acolytes due to him getting a double and then just having 24 SV completely bounce off 20 Mortek was all that needed to happen.
I always have at least 2 other armies I play, but having not played at all for about 3 months due to COVID I just wanted to get back into with Skaven but man... these strings of losses just really hurt. We'll see how the 4 DW's + 40 Acolytes list goes. I don't expect much but I may be surprised when I finally deviate away from standard builds 😉. Even if not then I have Tzeentch and Fyreslayers (may even give 4-5 Stonehorn lists a try too until we get Giants) to get reacquainted with. -
Next 2 up. Went 1-2 again unfortunately.. all explained in the reports. Needless to say I'm happy to be taking a break from Skaven (aside from 1 or so a week for the next tournament) and focusing on something that plays a bit differently like Tzeentch or Fyreslayers.
People seem excited about the 4 Doomwheel list so I'll probably be testing it out some this week.
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1 minute ago, Nikobot said:
Really enjoyed the report, thanks for providing a great read!
Honestly, just looking at the lists I was pretty confident you had him.
I thought your list is real solid, I think I'll borrow this one 😁
Multiple good threats, good numbers and had everything needed to dismantle the other build. Glad to see the stormvermin back reporting for duty!
Questions :
- stormvermin, how'd they feel at their current points? I think skeletons may not have been the toughest foe but not the worst either
- acolytes , good at 20? Perfect mix of output and horde discount? They seemed good!
- it wasn't a danger this battle, but naked warlocks with your general trait and artefacts.. would you change this against opponents with more long range threat or persist with this list?
thanks again!
Thanks, glad people are enjoying them 😉
1. I think they're good but I'm not super crazy about them; I still really think they need to be closer to 360. The issue I'm having is that I can almost never get the Clawlord in range to give them +1 attack unless he charges as well, but I've made a few long charges with them which puts them out of range. Even with 2 attacks they're pretty solid, but at that point they're actually doing less than 40 Monks on average. I just don't know that I can justify that extra 100 points to maybe get them to do another 7 damage on average over monks.. and I can bring 80 of them for only 60 more points compared to a Clawlord + SV.
In my OBR game, 27 of them got 30 wounds through and they only took 3 damage after saves so... the -1 rend doesn't always tend to help as much as some make out.
2. I would still take them at 25-30 if I could, but since they're maxed out at 20 now I have no choice.. and I think they still work fine. They 1-shot those Skeletons no problem, but only did 19 damage to a unit of 6 Stalkers in my OBR game thanks to rolling a bunch of 1-2's on damage so they can be swingy. They absolutely need to stand behind some Clanrats until you can open up and let them go into something, being as fragile as they are however you gotta make sure they won't get charged or shot right back.
These first 2 games were perfect for them since I have no threat of them getting shot\MW'd off the board.
3. I only take all-comers lists so no, I wouldn't change anything to tailor against a specific matchup; hell I don't even adapt to my local meta 😅. Bottom line is that we just aren't super great against long range MW's\shooting due to the ability to shoot off these heroes (hence why I've suggested Skaven have the 40k rule to not allow heroes to be targeted at all unless they're the nearest model). Losing those Engineers would kill a 6 Stormfiend list, but when I'm only running 200 points of Acolytes it isn't as big of a hit if I lose them. Unbuffed Acolytes can put out more damage than unbuffed Fiends unless you charge them into something.
Of course.. the last list I proposed is running 2x20 with 4 DW's just for the hell of it. If I can get MMMWP and Deranged on 2 different units then it's pretty great. The objective with that list is that it can be very aggressive or passive depending on the matchup. -
Had my game today with OBR, but lost and it really just came down to a single priority roll. I'll post a short batrep tomorrow with my last game once that's done.
Anyway, I have a ladder tournament starting next week and I decided to instead run the following. I think I'll take another small break from Skaven and play more Tzeentch\Fyreslayers for a bit (maybe just a month or so). I figured I would just use something ridiculous for this last tournament with them for a bit 😉:
SpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Engineer (110)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Engineer (110)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty BladeUnits
1 x Doomwheel (150)
1 x Doomwheel (150)
1 x Doomwheel (150)
1 x Doomwheel (150)
20 x Skryre Acolytes (200)
20 x Skryre Acolytes (200)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)
Extra Command Point (50)Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 188 -
New batrep time from the TTS tournament this weekend. I have another game today vs OBR and I'll have another tomorrow.. I'll try to do batreps on those as well but depends how I'm feeling.
Let me know your thoughts, I always appreciate some good conversation on these games.-
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1 hour ago, Blisterfeet said:
So reducing prices or warscrolls could be dangerous.
Or you know, have GW learn to actually point things differently for different armies.
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4 minutes ago, Nikobot said:
warpgnaw is probably the best, but im not confident with any of them killing a 5w hero via their basic profile
even with Ghyrstrike this guy would still only get out 5-10 damage before being bracketed to doing 1-2 damage a swing half the time. Before GHB2020 I largely had given up on him in my lists, now he's definitely not got a place.
GW really needs to figure out they role they're meant to play or justify why they cost what they do.. because I would love to take the Warpseer every single day of the week if it was priced closer to the 280 that it used to be (if I remember correctly). -
34 minutes ago, Ratty_McRatface said:
Is it just me or can Verminlords not fight good?
Am I crazy?
Oh absolutely not. I mean, the Deceiver barely has a chance to kill a 5 wound hero on average, but he fits more towards killing bigger things, without the output to do it. SoJ is what made the Corruptor good in melee but now that it's gone.. not really. Same with the Warpgnaw with Ghyrstrike, without that he's severely hampered.
Your suggestions could probably be enough to not justify a points increase, although I wouldn't trust GW to not do that anyway. Bottom line is that they just seem to be made as support pieces, but even then only 2 (3 if you're pure Pestilens) are really worth bringing in my opinion and even those are up in the air when you take their cost into consideration for just that 1 role.
I expect more out of a greater demon, but it seems that Tzeentch (for magic) and Slaanesh (for combat) won out in their respective departments.
AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion
in Skaven
Posted
It's rough. It's going to depend on the battleplan\deployment and your ability to put heroes\important stuff far away but a lot of the time it won't be possible with the guns having the range they do. Sometimes there's just bad matchups and not much can be done without a lot of luck (or your opponent having bad rolls).
I still think a Warpginder with 6 Fiends is really a good way to go to keep a major threat off the board. Alternatively you give them plenty of choices to shoot at, but if each of their threats can wipe one of yours then.. yeah, it can be difficult to deal with. Here's to hoping they're fixed with the Winter FAQ, but I doubt it since they aren't keeping track of TTS tournament results which is where a ton of data is coming from right now.