Gwendar
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Posts posted by Gwendar
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28 minutes ago, spacenoido said:
I see, thanks for the help. I'm generally trying to avoid buying the old metal/resin kits, but I think the easiest way to make the Doomwheel list work is to run Skritch as a normal clawlord, take a Warpgrinder, and then buy a command point for an even 2000.
If I were to drop the Warbringer, what would you suggest I bring?
And no-one would fault you for that because he's a great model. I happen to have the one from Isle of Blood\Spire of Dawn which is plastic but if I didn't I'd 100% be using Skritch as a proxy.
That's worth a shot though. And honestly, I would look at 40 Monks so you have another melee threat. Monks and Stormvermin both want Death Frenzy obviously, but if I take both in a list then I can determine who will need it more that turn if they plan to charge into something deadlier than the other. Remember, Death Frenzy is as much of a deterrent as it is a "damage boost".
You could do 20 Acolytes if you want to convert them, but I find them difficult to use... would give you Engineer more of a purpose, but once he dies they lose 80% of their damage output via the Warpspark and MMMWP.-
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1 hour ago, Coyote said:
Ok, I’m dumb please help.
Where does it say the Brood Horror and Skaven Clawlord (on Brood Horror) are no longer good for matched players?
Thought they weren’t legal for tournaments after the GH2020, but where can I see they are omitted now?So, if you look in the GHB 2020 they have points listed under the "Legends" Pitched Battle Profile (under the Monstrous Arcanum section) but they don't have points listed under the "Matched Play" Pitched Battle Profile like the other FW stuff is under the Monstrous Arcanum section.
Points in Legends but not in normal\matched play pitched profiles means they're illegal for tournaments unless given permission. -
5 hours ago, spacenoido said:
I'd prefer to stick to only bringing one Bombardier since my army is already pretty leader-heavy.
Additionally, the 2 WLC list doesn't really have anything that can threaten through a Gnawhole, right? That's why I'm considering going for replacing one of the Cannons with a Doomwheel and giving my Bombardier Vial of the Fumigator so he can double buff the Doomwheel before scooting it off through a gnawhole to kill something Turn 1.That's true, you are kind of heavy on them.. not that it's an issue, but your biggest threat here is a double death-frenzied Stormvermin blob and losing that will set you back quite a bit, IMO.
I don't see a point in bringing Vial if your intention is to teleport the Doomwheel through a Gnawhole; once something moves it can't move so the double-speed move is wasted. I'll be honest, that double move is insane to the point you wouldn't even need to think about Gnawholes unless you roll like a 4 for movement. You may actually be better off taking Skavenbrew for another +1 attack on the Stormvermin or even Vigordust Injector to give them +1 to hit & Charge (which you can use on the Doomwheel T1 as well). I enjoy Doomwheels when they're buffed with MMMWP as they're somewhat reliable 5-wound hero killers. I would go with that since you have nothing else that can be buffed with that spell.
As for Skritch.. with those 40 points in the 2nd list.. yeah, hard to say. I've been using Warp-Grinder teams quite a lot to keep a unit off the board against the heavy shooting\magic meta we're in.. alternatively you could get in Night Runners for the pre-game move to zone some stuff out, or Gutter Runners for a backfield threat T1. I don't really rate the Warbringer all that much since he's taking up 280 points and isn't as big of a threat on the board as some might have you think (with the trait and artifact, maybe but without them, nah) but double death-frenzy is very nice.
I'll let other weigh in, but my lists generally cap out at 3 heroes while trying to keep 2-3 big threats on the board.. your WLC and Doomwheel put you at 3, but you'll definitely feel the loss of those Stormvermin if\when it happens. I generally prefer more shooty setups, but a Warp-grinder, 40 Monks + 40 Stormvermin + 9 Jezzails has been a go-to in my head for awhile.-
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38 minutes ago, Kasper said:
How do you plan to deal with bigger sized units of stuff like Ardboyz, Mortek Guard, rats, Skinks etc.? We have talked about it a couple of times but I just couldnt imagine playing with the Manticore.
Yeah I know, that's the biggest issue I have with it... not having Winds of Chaos hurts but hopefully Treason combined with the other stuff can do alright.
Like I said before I've never been able to get HA to work for me but a lot of top tournament players have. I just don't think it suites me compared to my HD or Conflag lists 😅
Speaking of the latter, been theorycrafting up a non-changehost version of my Conflag list to incorporate Be'lakor + Kairos. Doubt I'll like it more since the 1 drop is so strong, but having Be'lakor + Kairos is also strong. Especially with a Daemonrift that can be thrown out from off the Bridge:
SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal ConflagurationLeaders
Fatemaster (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Coruscating Flames
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Be'Lakor (240)Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)Units
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (100)
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)
Extra Command Point (50)Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 71 -
5 hours ago, Kharl said:
It’s a mistake, I took the vortex
The sweet part here is moving the 2chickens in range before the start of the game and being in range. +changescaster on BV.
Ah, makes sense then 😅
Yeah, I really need to give HA another try since the only time I tried it was with Skyshoal and.. well, that was a mistake. I'm just enjoying the HD lists too much though. This is an alternate take on the double chicken HA list I'm keen to run:
SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum
Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (130)
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
Battalions
Changehost (180)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 89
Kinda want to try Geminids over BW to stack -'s to hit against the Pinks (or teleport the Fluxmaster, summon the 6 Screamers and throw it out to make them harder to hit) but I dunno, think I'll try this for now. Cogs giving Kairos 4 casts seems nice though and not something I think I would want to change.
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42 minutes ago, Congratz said:
In the heavy shooting meta whats our deal? What are people running?
I don’t think Jezzails really stand a chance against all the other shooting...
My thoughts are to switch over to melee threats, like Stormvermin or Plague Monks with Warpgrinders so they can’t be shot at turn 1. Maybe use Nightrunners for some pregame movement, hell maybe even a battalion
What do people think about this?
Pretty sad tbh just bought 20 Acolytes and Jezzails from Punga... haven’t played in ages tho, so maybe im wrong and they still kickass and still using 9 Jezzails, 20 acolytes and 40 Stormvermin 😂
I've mostly dropped them, but just for the reason that I'd rather run Fiends + Stormvermin and Grinder and it's hard to get them in. Acolytes + Jezzails + Stormvermin is still valid enough, but I've just found Fiends more able to stand getting shot at compared to Acolytes who take 1-2 turns to get where they're needed (for me at least).
Full melee is probably the safest just because you won't lost 80% of your damage from your 1-2 Skryre Wizards dying. I'd say bringing 9-12 Jezzails with that is still a good call if you can fit them in, just because they give you a long-range shooting option and aren't wholly reliant on a Skryre Wizard to do damage like Fiends\Acolytes are. -
4 hours ago, Kharl said:
I played today against StD and won quite easily with this list.
Even if it is probably not the most opti one, I found it fun with good tricks.
any comment?
Nice, always keen to hear how games go for people, especially with less common lists. Any reason for Burning Sigil over Balewind? It works pretty well with the Changecaster + Bolt.
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Got another one for you all with the same HD Magic list; this time vs Seraphon. Discussion is always appreciative 😅
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15 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:
Even after losing the Daemon Key Word, which is the real reason they were scary because peeps would just fold reality them.
And most of the time if you're doing this your screen slows them down, if it is a chaff unit. Then you're generally holding them back for 2-3 rounds I find. People still just shoot them off though, and being at a 5 up with no DPR they die pretty quick.
Right.. it's almost like half the team is stuck in the past and oblivious to what actually changed. Oh well.. I still love them even if others don't 😉
Exactly, you're basically just giving up a large reason of what makes them great. If your intention is to keep them behind a screen, then you may just be better off using foot Enlightened, especially since if they're behind one of our many 32mm based screens, they won't be able to hit with the Discs anyway with that 1" range unless that screen gets 1-shot. You could get them behind Blues\Brims I guess, but again you're sacrificing speed and an opponent could easily just ignore them or shoot\MW them off.
I've never been very impressed with them... Enlightened had a nice spotlight moment in BoC for a few months awhile back doing the above tactic but have since faded out. Their theoretical damage is quite high, but realistically in most cases 1-2 of them at best are going to be killed before you get to swing with your RR's, especially if you're trying to kill an equally punch unit (which they should be, otherwise just use Skyfires\Flamers). In those cases, you may actually lose 3-4 even if you tag the corner of a unit or potentially lose that many models attacking due to bad pile-ins if you couldn't base-to-base the opposing unit. 5-10 HGB can still easily clear a whole unit like nothing and then just fight again later. -
10 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
I agree they have a different role than flamers, but the issue is that flamers outdamage skyfires, even if the flamers have 0 support, aren't taken in eternal conflagration, and are shooting a lone character, and the flamers are 40 points less, and still have a 27" threat range. In my experience their shooting is deceptively weak unless you're sitting on some 6s in your destiny dice pool.
In melee, with rerolls, 3 skyfires will usually put out 3-9 damage (6-13 with the agenda), 6 will put out 8-17 (14-25 with the agenda). By comparison 6 enlightened with the agenda would put out 13-26, or 29-45 if they get rerolls (which is a bit tougher to activate than the skyfires).Skyfires are in a weird place in between enlightened and flamers, being worse at shooting than flamers, and worse at combat than enlightened, and costing more than either.
Right, and like I said I agree they need a reduction. It seems like GW is too afraid to drop them or Kurnoth Hunters with Bows down too much because way back in 1st edition they were both pretty solid and that fear is still engrained in their heads. I'm just saying you're more likely to shoot at that lone character with Skyfires than with Flamers outside of Changehost is all.. is it as strong? Absolutely not; on average 6 Skyfires maths out to around 3-4 damage.. but if I have no other use of a 6 then I'll probably use one on it if it's an important hero I wanna kill.
I'll never disagree Enlightened aren't better by miles.. but again, I'm looking at the potential threat ranges and the fact that Skyfire can hit first. I usually lose 1-2 Enlightened by the time I get to fight with them to get the RR's. If you stack them behind a screen then that works better of course, I've just not been one for that playstyle.. especially in a shooting meta where things aren't charging the screen in front of them and would just shoot them off instead.
I think it just shows that they really seem to be all over the place with decisions. On paper things seem to be okay but if they ran math or really played with things a bit more they just don't make sense, like you said. -
8 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:
I don't mean, splitting generates fate points. I meant that rather than petty vengeance, killing a pink EITHER splits into a blue, OR the controller generates a fate point. So the controller has the option. Combine that with a 1-1-1 split and they could come down to 140-160 points. This way people who want the 30 wound anvil can have it, but a lot more summoning lists could come out. Getting a free 30 fate points turn one because you got alpha striked and all your pinks are gone is a cool thing imo.
Ah, see I really like that. Although FP costs would need changing of course.
No one would want another Slaanesh before their 6 month FAQ where you kill all the Keepers just for them to get 1-2 back next turn 😅2 hours ago, Tizianolol said:Guys i have a question about Casting kairos spell ( that can create spawns) on a unit of 10 arkanauts/ admiral garrisoned into a ironclad.what happen in this case?
It would just come in within 3" of the garrison
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10 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
Scribe's true power is the 2+ spell that can't be unbound, and that is very valuable IMO, which is why I could see them going up a bit.
Sure, but I guess it's hard for me to gauge in an era of hyper-charged wizards +2-4 to cast with or without RR's being out there.. or Teclis not even needing to roll. At most I can see 160, more than that and you're really stretching the value.
5 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:Agree mate on a whole lot, but I respectfully disagree regarding the neverending loop. BUT i will put the caveat that I've only been in the hobby for about 2-3 years now so im still very green compared to vets who have seen the transition from old world to AOS.
Couldnt agree more with some of the tomes being a mixed bag of being thrown together hey. I felt that a lot of the Son's of Behemat reflected a bit of this and some of the stuff was actually quite lazily written. Also, you're point re: 3 points changes/FAQS is spot on... if theyre willing to do that they may as well actually do some solid FAQing and assist with warscroll updates where needed.
The amount of books and rules coming out has me a bit nervous as well. Im keen on entering into tournaments, but not if I have to bring a book shelf with me just to play and be up to date with all the rules. It gets a bit much. I mean look at what they have just announced for Warcry (granted I dont play) but thats an extra 4 books on what seems like 3-4 that are already out?
Hopefully this broken realms is more in line with what we saw with Wrath, which is alright as it isn't a HUGE difference to the way we play... unlike the Realm Rules we got that are pretty average and lack luster.
I worded that poorly I think.. I mean games like these are always going to be in a never-ending loop or else it dies 😅. I just have an issue with half-baked books and units being thrown out while other clearly get more attention or vastly different power levels in terms of rules.. and thats frustrating. I think perfect balance is impossible, but they can do far better.
SoB was a letdown for me and so many others, especially with you all since they gouged the price so much on you all. It was the same with Gitz and BoC, even with Nurgle; all books "made with 2nd edition in mind" yet there was a noticeable power increase right after. They've shown that they can completely re-write scrolls with the Plague Monks.. so why is it so difficult to give units 3+ to hit or change\add a wording? I can't name the amount of units that would be vastly improved if they just hit on 3's and not 4's.. but I digress.
I get your point with books... I was kinda suggested into 40k recently but the more I look at it and what I need to buy\remember\read up on etc has really pushed me away from it.. and I really fear for AoS going the same way eventually. Broken Realms will be the key that really shows what their plans are I think. I play a couple of other wargames (ASoIaF, Armada and Legion) so if I ever got burnt out, I have stuff to fall back on.. but AoS is always my main game and I'd hate to see them lose sight. -
3 hours ago, RUNCMD said:
I don't think Pinks splitting into blues/brims will ever get us fate points, it would make it easier to summon in other items and just ultimately spam them, like screamers or flamers. Also if they went back to the old method of Blue and Brim points, it'd mean FAR too much overhead in tracking everything again and it'd ****** a lot of people off. Pissed me off when I played the old tome.
I see what everyone is saying regarding how they need a re-work, but honestly, a single unit of Pinks and the way it works now is a fantastic screen and is just that. Sure if you stack them into 2 big blobs it means that you can just hold an objective and the opponent has to chew threw them but this is totally a synergy of the army, the lore and also part of GW's profits
Definitely don't go back to the old way... I think just having generate FP is okay.. maybe only from Pinks\Blues? I'm not really calling for them to be nerfed, but I don't think it would hurt a ton just having them split into 30 wounds over 50. If GW is going to gut them, that's just my most preferred way of doing it.. They'd still be a great screen and more units would be able to 1-shot them, which at 50 not a ton can if you have a CP to BS immune them.
3 hours ago, Ganigumo said:Tzaangors: Same cost, but unit size is 5-30. AFAIK Tzaangors are the only warscroll in its "position" (2 wound semi elite infantry) that can't be taken in 5s, and 15 seems like a sweet spot between keeping their +1 attack and the points cost.
Tzaangor Enlightened (on Foot): down 10, Battleline if Tzaangor General. The only reason to really take these guys is to lessen the cost of battalion requirements, this makes them more competitive and helps Tzaangor heavy builds reach battleline easier.
Tzaangor Skyfires: down 30-40? Shooting isn't costed at a premium anymore, and the damage output on these guys is pathetic in comparison to flamers, which are in the same book. Even arcanite builds would probably want to take flamers over skyfires.Lots of good stuff to breakdown there but I'll do it in the below response to RUNCMD's response to you.
I still think Tzaangors warscroll is mostly okay, but I think the cost on them needs to come down... or literally just give them somewhere to fit in where they would be buffed like Conflag and Pyrofane do for shooting. Transient Form should be a pure Tzaangor coven, not another one for Kairics who may turn into a Tzaangor you have nearby.
I'll tell you what though, if they lowered the cost and made the foot Enlightened battleline that would 100% have me sold into building into a CC based list with them.
I'm (of course) going to agree\disagree with Skyfires 😉. Yes, I do think they need a reduction.. but I don't think it's fair to compare their shooting to Flamers. They're just more of a "sniping" unit rather than "delete that entire block of 40" unit, and that's okay. For that cost you're getting something that can potentially snipe out 5-wound heroes at a 40" threat range, get +1 attack from the Agenda and clear 4+ save screens of 10-30 (depending on save) in CC.
With an Exalted, 12 Flamers outside of Conflag and not getting Aura of Mutability is 660 points and can put out ~21 damage on average. 6 Skyfires with +1 attack can do ~23 and a better potential to delete that little hero giving Stormfiends RR all hits and wounds and +1 damage.
2 hours ago, RUNCMD said:- LOC coming down, couldn't agree more. Not because I want to include it in more lists but because I actually want to field more than 1 and not feel like I've just blown close to half of my 2k points.
- Blue scribes going up, don't think it's needed. They're only really dangerous on the Balewind (IMO) which I feel will get removed from matched play in AOS 3.0 anyway. We should enjoy it whilst it lasts! Also, they're massive glass canon and really only that great in the first maybe 2nd round?
I think if I could ask GW to do anything though it would be to change the speed at which they are releasing things like new tomes, take the time to play test things a lot more (minimum 4-5 months, idk) with proper external play testers (sign NDAs if they have to), lower the cost or at least drop this massive Tariff they have for Australian buyers/players (feels bad man) and also change this mentality of win at all costs I feel is seeping into AOS atm... I also think that this is coming from the 40k scene as well, as that seems to be struggling to maintain its player base (I say this only from what I am seeing in my local scene and also across Australia) as more and more players are coming over to AOS. I feel that the win at all costs mentality comes from releasing things so fast and the latest meta armies... also It's becoming harder and harder to just keep up with the speed of things being released... does anyone else feel this? Whilst I know it's great for an ecosystem/game, it can also be pretty detrimental. I feel if they did a bit more of this that things would be more balanced? Maybe
LoC could definitely go down a bit more.. Kairos is objectively better in every way and only 20 more points. The reason you tend to see LoC is because GoS or Changehost requires it... and that's usually it (maybe a HA list with both since they get nudged 6" forward)
I also disagree on Scribes going up.. for most people they're just a RR battery and I find a Changecaster to be a much better option to put on a BW. For sure though.. our time with it is likely soon to end. I wouldn't be surprised if it went away in the Winter FAQ honestly.
This kind of thing about their speed comes up on discord often enough.. I just don't see them changing it. With trying to balance to gigantic game systems I really think they're just stuck in a neverending loop.. people always say "well at least it isn't as bad as 40k where people may only have a tome for 3 months" but I think AoS could quickly be approaching that. With these new books coming out (apparently the AoS equivalent to Psychic Awakening) then it could change things for the good or for the worse.
Tomes just seem to be a mixed bag of thrown together stuff sometimes and it seems to be a pattern with certain rules writers doing better jobs than others. I never expect true balance.. but in this day and age, giving more than 3 points changes\FAQs a year is pathetic. There's no excuse for the updates to not be more frequent and include more.. for so many units, a points drop isn't enough and they need small or large tweaks to be taken.-
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10 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:
I mean, I'm already working on lists that maximize minuses to hit. 30 wounds would become nigh impossible to remove.
But to some extent I almost think that's okay, no? To me, Tzeentch is at it's most unique when it's playing in a control\debuff style of play.. but even then I typically find Flamer Spam to be "better" just by wiping 2-4 units off the table per turn. I think if they go too heavy handed, then there could be a major drop in players as it would lost it's uniqueness.
We don't have a super strong CC setup outside of ultra-fragile Enlightened and the shooting is good in 1 particular setup (to a lesser extent, Pyrofane is decent in this regard too) but I've always felt the best lists should be all about summoning, shutting down and debuffing with the majority of damage being from spells. If any of that got tone down then I would really consider shelving them.
My 6 wizard list is so strong not because of HD or Horrors, it's mostly because of Be'lakor and Kairos being able to just say "sit down" to 2 units in 1 turn.. or 2 turns for Be'lakor if they get a double. -
2 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:
Oh believe me I feel your pain. I am currently building Tzeentch and so tired of how many models I have to build. They took away the fate points because they didn't balance the summoning costs, just like with Slaneesh. They need to either let them generate fate points, or only break down 1-1-1. Regardless, with Hosts Duplicitous its going to be a nightmare for armies without teleports.
There's a reason I generally run no more than 10-20 Pinks in my lists. I'm just in favor of 1-1-1 rather than them generating FP.. I feel that even in HD they would be toned down a bit just because they would be easier to 1-shot the whole unit. With 50+ wounds as explained above, there's a lot of units that can't 1 shot them and then 1 Fold Reality later and you have problems again.
1 minute ago, Ganigumo said:I think the idea of a unit of with lots of wounds, and a low save is good, and horrors are one of the only true "anvils" in AOS (most other "anvils" either being bad, able to grind out combat effectively, or just beasts in combat (HGB). If there was an easy way to limit healing to only heal 1 wound (maybe splitting only works the first time the model is slain?) but the rules would get complex.
I agree its a pain you need 2 boxes of blues/brims for every box of pinks thoughYeah, I don't think they need to get more complex.. splitting horrors as is has confused opponents into thinking you're doing some shady stuff. Ah well... we'll see what they do. The next big FAQ should be in December.. perhaps they'll do more than just another points increase.
I really, really wish they would just learn to update the scrolls during these FAQ's and not force people to wait 1-2 years for their new battletomes. -
2 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
I haven't played with them, so I might be wrong, but I think pinks are mostly fine, its the interaction with healing that puts them WAY over the edge, although I'm not sure what the solution to that is, other than not being able to heal them at all, the fact that there is potential healing on the warscroll, and we can forcibly trigger it with destiny dice certainly doesn't help.
True, but even with Fold Reality alone you have the potential to get back 5 wounds per model restored.. and yeah, get a 1 on BS to get even more. I can see the Banner getting changed (even though all other daemons do the same thing I believe) but Fold Reality would need to be completely re-written or just not be used on Horrors which... would then make it a non-include except in Hosts Arcanum or Conflag with big units of Screamers\Flamers.
A lot of lists aren't actually bringing healing or Multitudinous Host. I think a decent medium would be just make them split evenly.. the fact you have to buy 2 boxes of Blues\Brims per 1 box of Pink just sucks. That said, it would kill their some of their sales if they did that so who knows.. as it stands you want to wipe the whole unit if they have Fold Reality\-insert return slain models here- but putting them at only 30 wounds total vs 50 drastically lowers their ability to survive a lot of hammers out there while still being a reasonably good screen\wound block. -
6 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:
Stuff like this is why I see another nerf down the road. I think they should just let pinks dying generate normal fate points. Then raise the summoning cost on pinks and lower some other things.
Best case, pinks get a minor nerf. Worst case, Hosts Duplicitous gets nerfed like Petrifex did.
I'll be honest, I would much prefer that and I wouldn't feel like I would need to bring along as many. I'd rather see them split into a single Blue than 2 but I don't know if they'll change that. Right now, the fact that I have to buy\build\paint\transport 2-3x the amount of Blues to Pinks is just dumb. What you're proposing would be a bit closer to how they used to work anyway... just make each dead Pink worth 2 and Blues worth 1.. maybe Brims worth nothing?
I agree though, I think Pinks are what need to be looked at. 220 points for 50+ wounds is nuts.. a lot of the strongest punchy units in the game are still only putting put 35-45 damage on average with some cases easily clearing 50-70 damage. HD is strong, but Conflag and lately Hosts Arcanum have been stronger.. but Conflag is just good because Flamers are good while Pinks are just incredible in general. Not being able to retreat is a big deal, but so many units are already losing out on a whole turn even if they could retreat since they can't shoot\charge barring a few exceptions.. the most they can do is run onto an objective to regain control. -
So, you all wanna see a potentially oppressive list? Discussed some of this in Discord last night and figured I'd bring it here.
SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous
Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (130)
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Battleline
20 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (440)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
Units
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
Battalions
Changehost (180)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 89
It isn't something I think I would ever run IRL as it would likely require about 120+ Blue Horrors due to the returning of models\healing causing a lot of Pink-Blue splits. Not a lot of raw power, but you're really just teleporting that unit of 20 in range of the Changeling and giving them an auto-charge, take an objective and then count as double models. Your opponent now has to chew through an inescapable100+ wounds worth of Horrors that are -2 to hit in melee and -1 to hit at range.
Stack the other Horrors on objectives (who can also be -1 to hit) in such a way that they can't get to them and just sit there for a few turns while they try to whittle down the Horrors.-
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3 hours ago, frostfire said:
Hey guys how do you deal with OBR with crawlers? Played a few games against them with my Skaven and the crawlers killed clanratz as crazy and left me without enough models to grab objectives.
Doomwheels could like @Skreech Verminking said as you could tag them (not necessarily kill them) and you can do this with Gutter Runners as well. Alternatively, send 9-12 Jezzails through a Gnawhole (just to be sure they're kept out of range T1 if they go 1st) and shoot it off. Of course... yeah if they do go first or run 2 Crawlers and you only kill 1 then it can be pretty bad on the follow up. I think Doomwheels and\or Gutter Runners are a safer bet just to keep it out of commission since it won't even be able to shoot at them if they're within 6".
52 minutes ago, SoSoCho said:So I got smacked in the tournament
No chance
I dont really like being dependant on having min. 10 rats to push my furnace.
So I was thinking of trying 1 of the other clans.
Or is it legal to make a list with ex.
Skreech verminking
Thanquol
And 20x3 clan rats ?
I know il have min. 2 from masterclan and that makes it impossible to take any clan traits. (Il only get the four allegiance traits which is shared ?) But it is possible to do it like that ? Ofc il add other different units to the list without them getting clan traits
Best regards
You can mix anything you want.. you get all the traits; you don't have to be pure of a certain Clan to get traits.
The only stipulation is that if you wanted to have Stormfiends\Acolytes, Plague Monks or Night Runners, etc as battleline then your entire army needs to be made up of that Clan barring having 1 Masterclan general.. otherwise you need 3x20 Clanrats as minimum battleline. Other than that, there's no restrictions to what you have access to.
So what that means is that your Skryre Wizard would get warpsparks, your Verminous Clawlors would get their command trait, Pestilens Priests would get Great Plagues... etc. -
2 hours ago, gronnelg said:
I've only tried 6 stormfiends twice I believe. And both times I had a hard time getting them into ratling range. Do you typically just rush them forward to get them into range?
I guess it just depends on the army you're playing. They aren't something that you're generally getting in range T1 without a Bridge (even then you probably can't unless you're playing on a close deployment) so you're just setting up for future turns. Always be premeasuring and know when they don't need to be screened to ensure they don't get stuck behind Clanrats or something.
Gnawholes are pretty useful if you set them up correctly.. I use those the majority of the time if I'm going second as the T2-3 double turn is usually the one that wins games. Buff em, send em through and be sure you have a wizard in range for a Spark. That gets them close enough to shoot and charge in if I need to get an objective. From there you're wanting that double and you've hopefully created enough pressure on the other side of the board that they have to decide where to go.
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48 minutes ago, gronnelg said:
Are stormfiends worth using without Soul scream bridge?
100% not necessary at all. I sometimes run 12 with a Bridge but outside of that instance it's never included. I do like to use a Warp-Grinder Team though.. but again, not necessary.
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5 minutes ago, SoSoCho said:
Would I be able teleport (spell) my verminlord next to the gnawhole in enemy territory, make him cast his spells and the teleport him back through the gnawhole in my movement phase ? It says that you can teleport a unit if 6" within the gnawhole + a hero 6" - but since verminlord is a hero he can do it alone ? Or does he need a second hero aswell to do it ?
Best regards
Yes, it's something a lot of people have done since the range on Warp-Lightning Vortex was nerfed. Skitterleap a wizard near one, cast WLV and whatever other spell, then teleport back in movement phase.
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19 minutes ago, gronnelg said:
Hey guys! I'm tempted to buy acolytes and jezzails from Punga Miniatures. But they're so damned expensive. Do you think any of those units might be made unplayable, like the warpgnaw verminlord?
I would say no... but there's literally no way to tell with GW.
I wouldn't worry about it honestly; if they were going to go away, it wouldn't be for another 1-2 years when we get an updated book. And even then it could mean updated models. By the way, the Warpgnaw is still legal in matched play, it was the Clawlord on Brood Horror that only got Legends points and not Matched Play points.-
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5 hours ago, Kasper said:
I completely agree. I think it is an art to be able to "downscale" or significantly reduce the power of your army in order to have "fun games" with your non-competitive mates. My issue is that I personally enjoy trying to squeeze out power of my army. If I purposely have to downscale or remove synergies.. A lot of the fun goes out the window for me. Also I think its hard to reduce the power of this "control list" that @Gwendar was playing. I could obviously remove Kairos, switch to another host, not bring the Palisade or place the Spawn in such a way that I lock my opponent down, but are you really playing "control" then? I feel like it is a combination of all those things that makes the list strong (and fun) to play.
I meant to touch on this too. This was incredibly draining for me to do and I did it for at least 2 years. A couple of people I would purposefully play poorly against and I would still manage to win a lot of the time.. so I stopped. I did what I said above and either started to teach them how to play against me or I brought a whole different army that was easier (and I understand that may not be an option or something you wanna do). Even then, some people just won't be interested in being "taught" how to "play better".. and for them, yeah, I just don't play against them unless they sign up for the tournament.
It is what it is, but if neither party can enjoy playing each other for whatever reason, then it's probably better for your own sakes and the sake of the community to just leave it be.
In terms of the list, I genuinely think if you just switched it to another Host (like Summoners Guild, but they may think summoning a LoC who can't do anything meaningful until the next turn is too strong too 😅) would change a lot. The issue they seem is to have is that they can't retreat from anything and they can get locked in their deployment.. of course, that's why they need to be more mindful of how they deploy (measuring ranges, watch spacing so a Chaos Spawn can't tag multiple units, etc) and I think that's a "skill" all players should have to some extent. I think another thing you would want to remove is Be'lakor.. he doesn't lend well to casual players when you tell them "Yeah if you roll less than a 5 you can't do anything with that unit". Of course you're right though.. once you start removing those elements then it may start turning into something else. Outside of HD the Chaos Spawns are still useful as they need to make a choice between fighting it that turn and killing it (been done plenty of times to me) or shooting\MWing it off on their turn.
I don't think it's the "no retreat" part of HD that gets most people, it's the fact that I can summon 2 Chaos Spawn a turn and if they can't kill it in that combat phase, they have to dedicate resources to kill it. If they retreat from it outside of HD, then they can't do anything else unless it's something that can retreat + charge\shoot.
No chance
AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion
in Chaos
Posted
Since you technically allocate wounds one at a time until a model dies, then yeah, you'd only roll dice for the max amount of wounds you had left if it wiped your unit (so a unit of 3 would roll 6 even if they did 20).