Rock Lobster

Please 'fane' interest in my latest hobby project - finally ready for battle

I only split it up into 2 to try and convey the point to you since there is disagreement, your using the same sentence just to draw a different conclusion but without the justification I put in as to why my interpretation works. Result and trigger = ‘roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1” of a model from this unit after the model from this unit finishes a charge move’. It references the model charging as the trigger and then the result is roll a dice for every unit within 1" of a model from this unit, of which all 3 are models from this unit. Full unit clarification: Do this each time you move a model as part of the charge phase (there was no basis for your second part here) You are ignoring the result stated in the sentence and attributing it to one model where that is not what is written. I wrote an alternative for you to give you the result you are looking for, but the main rule is unfortunately not it. I am not going to be responding further to this at this point, not because I dont like a good joust or to be rude, but unfortunately I need to get back to work, so Ill let you have the closing word.

I like that! Especially since they have basically no wounds and save so the end result regardless of how you play it is 3 wrecked chariots if they hit anything that can fight.

I think my last reply to CB42 will really help clear this up. Its not that it is somewhere in between the 2, it is not at all the former that it is within 1" of the model that has charged. It is explicitly within 1" of a model from the unit - I think its pretty clear. If it is not Their intent, they can FAQ the language, but it is the rule as is written.

I would agree with you if the rule was written differently, it is structured unfortunately as it is for a different affect. I would agree with you if it just said 'Each time a model from this unit finishes a charge move, roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1" of the model.' That would be your interpretation written in rule form. The reality is though that they explicitly state that you Result = 'roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1" of a model from this unit' (surely no disagreement on this one) Trigger = 'after the model from this unit finishes a charge move'. And as we know from the next sentence you move each charger separately and total up the mortal wounds.

Could you elaborate on your point of disagreement, I'll be honest I'm not trying to be nitpicky, I just cant see where the disconnect is.

As stated you dont need to interpret or ignore the later part of the sentence at all per my post above. Surely you would agree it explicitly states that you 'roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1" of a model from this unit" right? Every model in the unit is a model in the unit - there is no way around that. I completely agree with you that this is done after the model you are moving finishes a charge move per the 2nd half. Per units of multiples you move each model and calculate all the mortal wounds inflicted after each move - completely consistent with that entire sentence. I think you are trying to tie things together that dont exist, dark and I are simply reading the rule as it is written.

I dont think it changes anything, you can bold that too if you like. It explicitly states that you have to roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1" of a model from this unit after the model from this unit finishes a charge move. So you dont get a choice in the matter, it has to affect every unit within an inch of any model in this unit. The use of 'the' refers to the model being moved and indicates it is per model being moved and explicitly reinforced by the next section on multiple models in a unit where each is moved and mortal wounds are inflicted after each move. I'm afraid that is correct.

The method stated above is correct rules as written. There is no getting around the fact that you move each chariot individually and each time a chariot moves you add up the mortal wounds and they affect every unit within 1” of a model from this unit. Playing it any other way would be not playing the rules as written.

Agreed you can hit multiple units up to 3 times (for the 3 chariots - if only you could take them in 6's) regardless of the location of the other chariots as long as the 1st makes it in. You can do some amusing things with this if you choose. Since you dont have to maintain cohenrency, it just kills off a portion of your unit to do so, and you only need to get 1 model within 1/2" (the first). So you can do silly things like charge as many units as humanly possible in a suicide run for the whole unit, spread them out across you opponents army and inflict mortal wounds on lots of unit lots of times. If any chariots survive combat at the end of the turn 1 chariot will be left as the unit is split out of cohenrency. Single chariot sacrifice per unit. Lets say you have 3 units of 3 chariots, and a limited frontage, you wan to do some damage to the always strike first grissle gore monster but only have space for 3 charriots and up to 9 mortal wounds aint going to cut it from 1 of those units. No worries, stick one charriot from each unit in there first and send the other 2 from each unit in coherency to fight something else. Inflict up to 27 mortal wounds (averaging 14-16) and then fight with that 1 model from each unit to finish it off. If you take casualties, take off the ones in combat with the monster first since you will lose them anyway at the end of the turn - or if the monster is down to 1-2 wounds you may want to keep it around to chip off the remaining wounds. Point for point 360 points for killing another model seems like a narrowly good trade, but actually the value of some character is far above their points and they are hard to deal with otherwise.

I wish I had thought of Kairos before the book, the idea of getting an auto 6 on the exalted keepers ability to kill nagash would have been excelent.

While this is true you cant hit more than 1 unit more times than the number of charriots, @Darkfine is correct in the sense you can hit multiple units multiple times even if the subsequent charriots are no where near the target hit, but the same unit max hits is 1 hit per seeker charriot. The precise wording is: Roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1" of a model from this unit after the model from this unit finishes a charge move. On a 2+ that enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. If this unit has more than 1 model, roll to determine if mortal wounds are inflicted after each model completes its charge move, but do not allocate the mortal wounds until after all models from this unit have moved. So lets see how these interact. I have a unit of 3 seekers I put into a unit of clanrats first. Per the 2nd bold "If this unit has more than 1 model, roll to determine if mortal wounds are inflicted after each model completes its charge move" so I move them 1 at a time to charge as normal. The first 1 goes in and you roll the 2+ to inflict D3 mortal wounds and keep a record of wounds inflicted. The 2nd moves in and that clanrat unit is still within 1" of a model from the unit (2 in this case - but doesn't matter) then you roll another 2+. 3rd charriot moves in and you roll another 2+ on that unit - so max 9 mortal wounds on that unit. Not great for a single unit but check this out. Turn the charriot bases sideways and space an inch apart for maximum surface area. This time the first chariot hits 3 units, 2 units of clanrats and a weapons team nestled between them. Roll a 2+ for each of the 3 units. The 2nd chariot goes in, and can only hit a single unit of clanrats - it matters not, 3 units are still within 1" of your unit so roll a 2+ again for each. The 3rd chariot does the same on the other unit of clanrats and all 3 are hit again with 2+. Potential damage from the charge is now up to 27 mortal wounds across the 3 units. In short seeker charriots are very good against MSU, You should spread out as much as you can and try and tag multiple units, for max effect the first charriot should go into a happy place where it contacts as many enemy units as possible. After that the remaining charriots can go anywhere and you will still continue to rack up wounds. Most effectively used against things like multiple skink screens or small heroes within 12" of one another.

Looking for some list feedback for a game against gloomspite this week. I want to give some infantry a run to see how I feel about the loss of characters: Invaders Keeper - 360 (Ghyran +1 attack blade) (trait undecided) Keeper - 360 (Ghyran +1 to hit and wound blade) Contorted epitome - 200 (Invaders artifact that generates CP) Character battalion - 120 30 daemonettes - 300 30 daemonettes - 300 10 daemonettes - 110 Daemonettes battalion - 180 Cogs - 60 Pretty straightforward concept - 2 wings of attacks, a keeper with 30 daemonettes. Center is just the 10 with the epitome for magic offence / defence, holding objectives, summoning and lending combat support if needed. List starts turn 1 with minimum of 3 command points, 5/6 chance of getting 1 from the artifact and 50% chance of getting a 5th from the battalion. Average CP over the course of game is like to be 3 per turn factoring in starting CP. Cogs allows the list to strike fast, and if needed boost daemonettes to run 6". Gives a potential average move and charge with the cogs for daemonettes of 23". Only 2 drops means I can almost always go second and see if my opponent is foolish enough to move forward even a couple of inches. I think it is a good mix of bodies and characters, command points and magic that doesn't lean too heavily in any 1 direction to make the list 1 dimensional, and the steady trickle of CP gives options to a lot of different think. It lacks compared to other lists in DP generation. The trade while keeping the list similar would be reducing 1 unit of 30 daemonettes to a unit of helstriders and sticking in the special character herald. This would reduce the combat punch of the list to his combat punch, but provides a greater shot at extra CP, his awesome spell etc. I think it is a fair trade and comes down to preference. Option 3 is to slack off on CP a little and weaken a keeper, dropping the daemonette battalion and losing one of the weapon artifacts but keeping the CP generating one and this allows you to keep 60 damonettes and get the special character herald. You will have a smaller turn 1 pool of CP but will be rich in CP each turn still. This weakens the dameonettes too, but I think it may actually be the most balance of the 3 lists.

Yes that is a pain, I think they work best in a list like pretenders where the bestigor are operating with a lot of power and resilience of their own not sucking up command points and keeping the enemy occupied while all the CP goes into the keepers. If you are invaders with a lot of CP to spare then better to go daemonettes where you can spend the CP to make daemonettes perform (i.e. run 6 or pile in twice)

I know your pain, I have 12 of them, I wont be using any any unless their points change in a future GHB

The rod of misrule is certainly an interesting option, very good chance with the hero battalion you can generate 3 cp a turn including the normal 1, that enough to power all keepers to strike twice.

I like both suggestions of getting more out of the battalion. Although it is certainly not poor on its own merits. Think of what you get for 430 points which bear in mind is one 130 points more than you would pay minimum battleline tax if you took Hellstriders as battleline. Battleline tax paid 3 very fast and cheap units for capturing objectives and screening - being under 200 points for all 3 is great for tournaments which award victory points per 200 points of units killed (like the tournaments around here) A wizard with a great spell with utility that does something nothing else in the army can do to help mitigate screens and surprise opponent - also cheapest access to the mortal wizard spell for +1 to hit which is very useful 4 depravity points built into the character an artifact a command point A single drop for 4 units, allows for a 2 drop for whole army with the hero battalion. It really is an a bargain for all that. The spell utility alone is a great asset and the cheapness of the units that can be thrown away. You say the enrapturess and 30 damonettes is better for the same cost, however you still need 200 points of battleline minimum on top of that - thats 200 points not going to depravity generating characters. You have the same depravity points but lose access to the 2 great spells for a shooting attack and some interesting magic defence. You lose 1 cp and an artifact. In fact to catchup in batteline tax and to catchup in CP costs 250points minimum (and you wont get the artifact) which is only 50 points away from 30 bestigor, 30 damonettes or 110 points from another keeper. I think the best way to go is with that 430 point drop and build from there, gives the artifacts and command points your characters needs, keeps drops low, adds utility and allows you to go in any direction you want after that, increasing beastmen contingent, hero hammer or slaanesh demon units. The only time I would stray from this as an ideal list base would be the mortal wounds battalion, then its go pretenders and 60-90 damonettes, cogs and shove them in peoples faces with a couple of keepers and cp - no beastmen required.

I think you need the redundancy in the command ability. if you face 3 warp lightning cannons with 1 overcharging (pretty standard skaven list) and any other spells, losing 10-18 mortal wounds of characters in a turn is pretty standard. You woundnt want to lose your command ability turn 1, at least you get a turn to hopefully charge in with your units striking twice and the 2nd keeper surviving. Same goes for any shooty list we fight, 2 is 1 and 1 is none - almost all shooting heavy lists will drop a keeper in 1 turn easy so you need at least 2. I personally like the lists with 3 keepers as you can weather a few turns with the command ability intact and the useful greater demon spells and it gives no obvious target priority if you are not pretenders - you can spread out valuable spells and artifacts 3 ways to make it not really a huge deal if they kill 1-2 keepers, and of course you can summon more characters back.

I think those are both potentially solid lists, a lot of bodies that pack a punch. Those bestigor are mean in a pretenders army, the only downside is again the 32mm base size and poor morale which requires command points potentially to fix. They hit like a truck though if you charge a horde. Even if only 12 of your 30 men connect that is a shocking 28 wounds at rend -1, and with 2 bites at the apple and a 4" pile in the reality is that any horde gets deleted in a single combat phase. If they get charged by a small but powerful unit or character they are lot less powerful though, their damage output reduces by 50%. If you can get cogs off though and you roll high or burn a command point though, those bestigor average 26" move run and charge with the shaman nearby which is pretty crazy.

The Gors base size is the killer for me, if they were 25mm I think they would be a super solid choice - the 4+ save in combat is very handy and getting 3 max size units on the battlefield for 630 points is great. As it is, ungor seem like a really solid choice for board control sacrificial units etc. My only concern with the big units is they can actually get in the way of your characters which dont really need to be screened because of the always strikes last ability. It might be better to have 3-6 10 man units to just run around jumping on objectives and forcing your opponent to deal with them and draw them towards your killy units.

Correct

I think he following list is really strong - tempted to pick up the beasts of chaos necessary for it, it is hero hammer: Beastman shaman 3 x 10 ungor raiders (battleline) depraved drove 3 x keeper of secrets Epitome Enrapturess Slaanesh hero battalion (30 points spare) I havn't finalized my pick for items, but tempted by the ghyran items for +1 attack and +1 to hit and wound and then a 3rd item for the 3rd keeper. I think it needs to be seekers or invaders so the 5 characters can sit in the battalion. Benefits of the list are: 2 drops start with 2 command points - every turn gain normal command point and a 5/6 chance for a 2nd so plenty to get on with. 54 depravity is a nice little pool in wounds alone. Enough that even if I killed nothing I could summon 3 exalted seeker charriots. The ungor are a great sacrifice, only 60 points each and within 12" of the beast lord can move 10" - 15" a turn to capture objectives, particularly central objectives and force the enemy to the middle of the board. The shamans devolve spell is useful for potentially pulling screens out of position and allowing space for characters to slip by. Magic defence is solid, force opponent to reroll successful casts within 24" of enrapturess and reroll fail unbinds from Epitome, it is a pain for an opponent hoping for magical dominance. 3 keepers all with artifacts - lot of potential options here, offensive and defensive - the redundancy makes it likely to keep command ability on the table against shooty lists. You potentially start turn 1 with 4 command points and gain potentially 2 a turn - that is a lot of double attacking, enough for 2 turns with all 3 keepers.

I think Fiends time has passed, people would be struggling to fit them in at their previous points and now they are not going to make it for sure. This is in spite of the fact they are a great unit. Here is what makes it a very poor choice to take them: They only work well in units of 4 or more, meaning a minimum investment of 420 points. For that you can get a keeper of secrets and half a battalion! They are not battleline - this is a HUGE downside for both them and seekers. The army is structured in such a way that you want the max amount of characters and as big of characters as you can plus your battleline tax. While more points spent in battleline can be good since you can invest less than a couple of hundred points into a unit of daemonettes to make it mighty since some tax had to be paid anyway, the fiends eat directly into your character points providing no upside and creating weakness. They do not really fit in the useful battalions - adding them weakens your army and increases drops The depravity system screams 6 characters, the character battalion screams 6 characters, the locus rules and spells scream more greater daemons if possible, the depravity system wants more points in bigger characters - a competant size unit of fiends flies in the face of all of this, either knocking your characters down to mini characters or having to remove 1-2. You cant even summon a unit of 6, only a unit of 3 making them not even worth bringing as a side board for summoning, I love fiends and to me it was a real shame to see them go this way. If they were battleline in say a godseekers allegience at their orignal points cost I could see certain builds finding a place for them. At their current points and not being battle line they will not see play in a list going for the most competitive build. I would argue that no non character units that are outside of battleline will see play. The only reason to do so would be the battalion from wrath and rapture for another cheap battalion, and sadly I think now the tax is a little steep on that battalion in addition to the battleline tax, puts you a minimum of 230 points outside of battleline, characters or battalion cost in the hole which could be an exalted seeker charriot which gives 9 dp even if it just dies, is a hard hitting character, a spell caster and all around better piece.

Daemonettes are great battle line. Worth pointing out that even with none of the other buffs which are tricky to pull off, with just 1 CP they average about 27 wounds on their own against 4+ which is plenty nice. Its easy to get lots in combat I find owing to the base size. The extra punch of the other buffs is only probably required against super tough to crack targets. It is hard to break through sequitors, you can kill close to half of the 20, but the ones left who hit you back are all the ones with the nasty weapons so that is where the +1 attack would be great. Best targets for damonic power I think are the exalted keeper, particularly if you have the +1 to hit and wound on the claws (wounding with 13-14 of your 14 attacks is amazing, and with the sword wounding on 2s and rerolling 1s), or a big unit of fiends making the stingers much more reliable and essentially making it so they dont have to stand near a character for their locus - I dont think it adds nearly as much value to the damonettes.

I hope they keep the exalted keepers mandatory kills your expensive character on a roll of 6 roll. It is funny just to horrify your opponent with the possibility.