Enoby

It's hard to say who'll be top dog, but Slaanesh is certainly looking a lot better than before. Painbringers to 130 makes them a very strong option, and Sigvald is bizarrely cheap (not that I'm complaining).

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Continuing on from the discussion in the Rumour Thread.

++ Mod hat ++ While the discussion of NPE is interesting, it should go on another thread If anyone would like to continue the discussion, please create a new thread yourself or I will if enough people react to this post/reply saying they would.

Seems like the new points are officially confirmed - no mistypes with Sigvald's points after all

If I'm not mistaken, Khorne now doesn't blow all their Blood Tithe when they spend - so that's a pretty nice quality of life change!

As @Wordy9th mentioned, they do MWs on a 4+ per Slaangor, not per enemy. They're not known as one of the worst warscrolls in the game for nothing

Sigvald's points do seem a bit funky - not to say I'm unhappy with them, but if anything was to get a 60 points drop, I'd have expected the KoS, Glutos, or Slaangors. My guess, also looking at the Twinsoul/Painbringer/Blissbarb drop, is that they looked at the okay-to-good units in the army and prioritised buffing them as a test. If they know how well Slaanesh can perform with its good units decreased in cost, then they can be more confident with future changes. Sure, they could bring Shalaxi down 60, but there's a good chance no one would use them anyway so it wouldn't help HoS that much or really tell the team useful info. Sigvald at 205 may be an autoinclude, but potentially that was the plan - to be experimental and see how far they can push the faction. If so, I appreciate that.

Thanks for the stats Symaresh do seem very strong; while they have a weakness in no rend, their current damage per point is amazing. To compare them to stormcast dragon knights on a charge: And then +8 mortal wounds-ish from the dragons when you use their fire breath and slay a 2 wound model (common characteristic) with tempest. The dragons are 4" faster and can fly, and also have +1 save, a 4+ spell shrug, and a weird move and charge ability. So against a 3+ save, a unit of 10 Twinsouls rerolling their hits (nothing else) deals 12 damage on average, compared to dragons who do 8+8 (so 16). Against a 4+ save, Twinsouls deal 19 compared to 18. If damage was all that mattered, then per point, Dragons would pay 21.25 points per damage against a 3+ save, and 18.54 against a 4+ save. Twinsouls would pay 20.59 points per damage vs a 3+ save, and 13.73 vs a 4+ save. As mentioned, dragons do have a lot else going for them and I don't think Twinsouls will be as strong as dragons, however I wanted to use dragons as an example of a potentially underpriced very powerful damage unit. Twinsouls per point outdamage them even when accounting for mortal wounds (especially later down the save totem pole), and while they don't have the other tricks dragons do, it certainly suggests they're in a very good place. I think it's helped a lot - beforehand, list building felt pretty dry as you could hardly fit anything in and it didn't feel that powerful when you did. Now we at least have some cool units that are competitively costed, we can look into less gimmicky lists.

It can mean both - the gods warscroll update was in a battlescroll, but in general warscroll updates are rare. I don't think they're coming, but I'd like them to.

I hope this means some warscrolls are getting changed - both good and bad, I think warscroll changes are the most satisfying way of dealing with poorly designed warscrolls.

Also, what do we make of this: If I dare to be hopeful, it could mean warscroll rewrites, which may mean new Slaangors... or it could just be some slight tweaks to hunters and quarry. But I hope Slaangors. I think these large changes may have been because the community kicked up such a fuss. Yes, the writers probably recognised Slaanesh's weakness, but compare our changes to Khorne and Gitz (which are arguably weaker), our changes are much bigger. I'd like to think the rules writers took notice of everyone! Also, @AngryPanda, I know you liked Myrmadesh, so I'm tagging you to let you know they're probably good now!

I' very impressed with the new Slaanesh points drops. For those not familiar with Slaanesh, the big changes were (from pre GHB points): - Sigvald 205 (-60) - Blissbarbs 140 (-30) - Twinsouls 130 (-35) - Painbringers 120 (-25) On a list I've been using well, it dropped 235 points. These are really huge changes.

Thinking about it, Twinsouls seem really good for 130. For the amount of damage they do, being able to take 10 for just 260 is amazing. Yeah, the lack of rend hurts, but a single unit is enough to much most units. Even more so because we can expect more 4+ save models about with non-battline troops likely ruling the roost with bounty hunters.

I hope not 😂 I do think Painbringers are a bargain for what they bring. Compare them to Chaos Warriors (if you could bring them in 5s for 100). For 20 extra points, you get -1 rend, +1 move, mortal wounds on 6s to wound in addition, and a permanent +1 save in combat. The only thing Chaos Warriors have is a 5+ MW save and a +1 to save in shooting sometimes. They're actually pretty good for their points, and not just pretty good for their points in Slaanesh terms.

Very nice Slaanesh drops added on

For reference Definitely looking better for us with this.

Did 40k stop doing alt art LE covers just now, or has this been the case for a while? Shame if so, I was hoping the practise would move towards AOS.

I do think Endless spells may be more worth it now, but I think the jaws may be more reliable than the sun. I think the wheels are also good. Both of these have a high chance to do at least 1mw on any unit, compared to the more swingy purple sun. The visage may be good too for its strike last ability. The Epitome is more attractive now I think, and Glutos isn't a bad caster either.

I think the best chance we have is a new book. A bit like Lumineth 1 to Lumineth 2, I think our books were written very close together and so loads of things were kept very similar - with the stuff that changed in ours being 'necessary' fixes. Unfortunately due to the time crunch, we got a 0.5 battletome that was probably written in a week with the constant pressure of "whatever you do, don't make it OP" looming over the writer. It made for a boring, half designed battletome with monumental points costs to try provide double insurance against OP summoning. I do think a new book would be a lot better, so long as it's not released soon. Sylvaneth went through something similar, with a powerful 1st book, a half baked weak 2nd book, and now an actually creative 3rd book.

I'm in the same camp as @Carnith that they're nice to see - we did get more than any (?) other faction overall, but we didn't get any huge targeted drops and I'm baffled Slaangors didn't see a change. I do think, with the bounty hunters being fully revealed, we're better skipping out on making Painbringers and Twinsouls battleline and just taking Blissbarbs mixed with Hellstriders (who won't count for GV) to deny the opponent's points and just park/summon GV units on the special points when needed. Potentially use the GV rules to help 10 Painbringers in combat, but tbh I don't know if that's worth it should they become priority number 1 for bounty hunters. On the bright side, I do think the Bounty Hunter battalion is a great fit for our Slickblade Seekers - they're very fast and easily able to hit on the regular. The points drop on Sigvald is nice too. I don't think we'll be going up in the meta, but it does help a little bit and we'll probably be in a better place than before, but not by loads.

If I were to guess, "too cheap" is when a unit could have as bad stats as they wanted, but the reason you take them is because they're more bodies. For a ridiculous example, if goblins got so cheap that grots were a wound a point - so a unit of 20 was 20 wounds - they could have utterly useless stats but would break the game because of the sheer number of wounds. A unit can be so bad that any points change wouldn't save them - or rather, any points change would only ever upgrade them to "useless wound pillows". These are the units in desperate need of a points change.

Just to check so I'm not missing something. For veteran units, are the pros: - Can make them count as 3 models each when in a particular battalion * - Can benefit from the new command ability if there are 10+ models in the unit * - Can contest the special objective The cons for these units: - Can be targeted by +1 damage from units in a particular battalion * - Some battleplans give out extra victory points when a player kills their opponent's veteran units * * not guaranteed every game, depending on lists/units. The penalties do seem harsher for taking these units. In the past, taking a unit of 30 or 40 would capture an objectives on numbers alone - they would only need to count as 3 for objectives when against large units themselves, so the new battalion doesn't really help these units. On the other hand, +1 damage against these units probably secures the unit's death and they'll count for 0 then. The command abilities costs a command point and may not even happen, as well as needing 10 or more models in the unit, so it's not something to rely on. Contesting the special objective is important, but as there's only one of these objectives at a time, you're better off just having a single unit to chase these. In all honesty, I think this puts me off taking battleline units and I don't really see how it encourages hordes. If someone could give me a good reason otherwise, I'd love to hear it - I could well be missing something.

Thans I'll edit that in. But yeah, I think that's the big thing - one of (if not the) most struggling armies gets a reletively tame points decrease. It's not a nerf, but it again makes you question what the rules team sees that we don't - or if they just don't see an issue at all.

Very small changes - and no changes to Slaangors, which makes me wonder if the rules writers are looking at the same warscroll we are. Sigvald down to 245 (-20) Contorted epitome down to 245 (-15) Lord of Pain down to 140 (-10) Shardspeaker down to 135 (-15) Glutos down to 470 (-5) Keeper of Secrets down to 400 (-20) Shalaxi down to 390 (-15) Daemonettes down to 130 (-10) Endless spells also went down. So they're all decreases, but none big enough to make a difference and most still overpriced. It's a big shame really as Slaanesh will be waiting a long time for any worthwhile changes, and it makes you wonder why the writers think they're okay - I'd personally love to know.