[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

3 hours ago, PlayerJ said:

The save can be increased with all out defense, mystic shield, ironclad(if it stays), etc. To basically ignore rend. Add on top amulet to have the ward for even more survival, and just for shoots and ladders heroic action and healing beat to get back wounds. 

Oh and ghur CA to always fight at top bracket

There is an enormous difference between a 2+ unrendable with a 6++ and a 3+ unrendable, it's not a +3 wound difference either.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

5 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Option 2 is the hackas and 3 is the gore choppa. Basically both got 1 better rend than before. Standard 2 choppas is the same. Due to the coherency rules the hackas are far superior. If Ard boys do not get rend 2 on anything, that for sure brings the Brutes forward with a clear purpose to smash heavy armor.

By that you mean makes Ardboys expensive objective holders  

Really need to see what other rules are on there, seems like the dual choppa could be in line for one of the classic dual wield abilities.

EDIT:

1 hour ago, Lanoss said:

Soooooo Gordrakk has 20 wounds (18 for MBMK) and a 4+ now…?

Attacks got a bit better too

Gotta love how the megaboss STILL only has -1 rend. It's just blows my mind, here's hoping the riptooth puts him back to a 3+ save because if it's at a 4+ with no ward save then those 3 extra wounds are functionally meaningless...

Fists should be -3 rend, the glaive made -2 to match the brutes and the choppa+riptooth left at -1 but improves his save to 3+ (not +1 to save).

That way the cabbage would have realistic rend and a choice between offence and defence.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

33 minutes ago, Boggler said:

If it is the Gore Choppa then ok...

If it is the Jagged Gore Hackas then OMG!

It's both the special and the 2" ranged weapon. Holy gods those 2" range brutes are unbelievably good now. 

EDIT: Also you aren't supposed to post leaks on this forum.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

3 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

@Malakree @Tezia99 I agree with both of you, in theory, but facing a lot of shooting armies, I know my key characters (WC, MK) won't be staying on the tabletop for long.

 

Overall, I don't think that there is a strengh gap betwen IJ and BW. Both allegiance are different and I just feel like have more tools when playing IJ (even if I have a really cool list with Rogue Idol and a MK in my head). I cannot wait to see the new book, with so many new entries, we're going to have so much to try  

I would personally say that prior to the new book Big Waaagh! is just better purely due to combination of Brutish Cunning (so you get your 1 mighty destroyers for free anyway) and the 6++ being ridiculously important at the moment.  Outside of that Big Waaagh! has the general throughput advantage but the Ironjawz tricks bag is extensive, especially when you add in the clans.

That said it's basically meaningless at this point with the new book coming out. As I said if the 6++ goes or IJ get access to it aswell then the field is wide open and I'd even say that for lists which are more "pure" then IJ is better. 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

7 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

But you don't have all these buffs immediately. Round 3 at least. And for me it's often too late.

I play a lot of gore gruntas, and when I charge, I tend to end up with 2+/2+ anyway. And Ardboyz have some sort of 6+ against non MW.

Finally, I play a lot of units and the Ironjawz Waaagh is often a +2 attacks, much more effective than the BW's Waaagh.

But it's just the way I play  

You get the 6++ turn 1 and the rest of them turn 2. That's how any Big Waaagh lists should be designed.

I often won't waaagh with BW, there's no need and the bonus waaagh points get sunk into casts/unbinds instead. Against some armies the +2 to unbind is the only way you'll stop key casts.

6 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

You can prepare a list to get this bonus round 2 of course. But it is only if none of your characters are shoot off the board, it costs you CP, you need to cast a spell successfully, ...

Whereas in IJ, you get your rules round 1 and that's all. But it's litterally the game mechanic of BW, when you are full buff, you are stronger than in IJ. But the road to get there can be a bumpy ride  

2x Warchanter, 40 Orruks, wurrgog+wardokk. 10+d6 per round. Alphastrikes are essentially none existent at the moment and are so easy to stop with good deployment so it's super rare your support characters get nuked.

Since most turn 1s are both players shrugging at each other you end up with so many spare cp's round 1 it's ridiculous.

4 hours ago, DerZauberer said:

Do you guys think IJ still needs a Weirdnob for Big Green Hand?

In my AoS3 games i've had the feeling several times now that he's just not worth it.

He was bad before, with the reduced board size he's even worse. Problem is his warscroll is so awful that you're paying 120 points for a blank warscroll which won't get the HoG off most of the time (CV7 vs all the heavy wizards out there atm). Even in Big Waaagh where it's much easier to get it off it the playstyle is slower and doesn't even want the turn 1 alphastrike.

Combine with how small the boards are, the objectives being closer together and heroic willpower you're realistically not getting off at any point it matters. Hopefully the new book actually fixes his warscroll rather than it being a bad version of the wardokk which costs 35 points more...

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

3 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

Smashing and bashing is so strong that I don't see myself playing another alliegance than IJ.

I found that I was only fighting with 2 units a turn and most (due to WC buffs). Compared to Smashing and Bashing the 6+ ward was basically mandatory while the +1/+1 makes your units so much more effective and reliable. 

I've heard a rumour we might lose the 6+ ward in which case I'd seriously consider going back to straight IJ unless I'm running a proper IJ/Kruel combo list.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

On 8/14/2021 at 11:31 PM, Jabbuk said:

Is this the rule you're referring to? 

"A unit is eligible to fight if it is within 3" of an enemy unit and it has not fought in that phase, or if it made a charge move in the same turn and it has not fought in that phase."

So if I understand correctly, you can charge in the hero phase, retreat to be out of combat in the move phase, but can then pile in later, even if you're outside of 3", because you made a charge move in the same turn. That's some next level sh--. 

In which scenario would you want to do that exactly? Could you elaborate a bit on your strategy?

There's 2 big tactics you can use with this.

Charge a unit then retreat, you are no longer within 3" so the enemy unit cannot pile in and attack until your own unit has already done so. You're essentially removing that combat from the activation priority.

The other is to charge a unit then hop over it so you are now in a gap in the enemy back line. You then pile in and attack onto a high priority target having bypassed the enemy screen. This is way harder now you can't just add +6" to the retreat using a run as it makes the move a lot tighter.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

35 minutes ago, Bruteforce said:

Yes this was my feeling. I really hope IJ don't get left in the dust.

To be fair the thing we really need is updated warscrolls rather than rules. The weirdnob is a great example of something which is to expensive to be a basic magic include but is to cheap to actually bring magical power to the table. Green puke is shockingly bad, it's got 1 cast and the free green puke requires a double reinforced 285 point unit.

If it was given 2 casts or had it's warscroll spell/ability improved with a bump to 150-170 it suddenly becomes more than just a 120point hand of gork tax.

The same is true of a bunch of our warscrolls.

 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

2 hours ago, The Damascus said:

Mob ’Em, Skewer ’Em, or Zap ’Em – Three Ways to Waaagh! in the New Orruk Warclans Battletome - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

Only mention of Jawz is one spell, that's not even new. Looks like we're not going to have many (if any) changes and most likely will not get anything new. 

I want to stay positvie, but I have a sad feeling that Ironjawz will end up being the weakest of the Orruks and it will be much better (stronger) option to play as Big Waaagh. My pure Ironjawz heart is bleeding today. Maybe it's time to try a new army.

It's not new or changed at all.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

19 hours ago, Carnith said:

I might start leaving the mawkrusha at home. It's insanely powerful, but I do worry about it just being an I-WIN button that my friends might not have the tools to compete with. 

If it gets going and the opponent doesn't have tools to deal with it then the MK will go nuts. The tools do exist and there are a bunch more which can deal with it if used properly, this really comes down to judging your friends and the quality of their armies/play. Much in the same way anyone playing a casual game against lower skilled players shouldn't be taking gotrek.

20 hours ago, Carnith said:

In other news, I'm hoping our book is announced today. What are some wishes we hope for Ironjawz? 

I personally want Brutes up +1 Damage across the board or some other way to give them damage. I want them to feel most distinct than ard boyz. I'd change the warchanter to something else instead of a +dmg bonus. Leave the mawkrusha as it is, maybe some minor changes. 

If we're wish listing

• All "Ironjawz" (ie. brutes and ggs) to go to a 3+ save, from the lore perspective Ardboys aren't actually "Ironjawz". That or give them all reduce rend by 1.
• a 6++ ward save built into the book as a whole, it's basically mandatory for any form of elite army to compete properly now.
• Increase the bravery of everything but Ardboys/GG's by 1.
• Ironjawz Waaagh! to be board wide.
• Warbeats to automatically work rather than a 4+. Maybe make fixin beat 1-3 heal 1, 4+ heal d3.
• A bunch of our redundant hit modifiers to be reworked into useable stuff, thinking Ironjawz Waaagh going back to a MB warscroll thing would be fine with 3.0.
• Return of Foot of Gork. Would be such an amazing invocation.
• Reintergrate the MK buffs which were stripped out to make traits and give us real options. Really annoys me that they took our 4+ impact hits, nerfed it to 5+ then said "here's an amazing mount trait that makes it 4+"....

Then for real wishlisting

• Swap the Brute +1 to hit vs stuff with 4+ wounds to something which makes them actually scary. "If this unit makes an attack against a unit with 4+ wounds then that unit cannot make wards against any damage inflicted. If that unit has has 10+ wounds then increase the rend characteristic by 1."
• Megaboss weapons increased to rend 2.

I could probably go on but we're running into brain wracking territory and true wish listing.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

2 hours ago, Stibboe said:

Hi guys,

I'm new to AoS, I just picked up a start collecting box and I'm assembling the 'ardboys. I was wondering how I should build them, I got 10, do I make a banner, Icon, as many shields as I can and then whatever? I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, if anyone can point me in a direction where these kinds of things are listed or discussed I would be grateful

Thanks in advance for any replies!

Every 5 models should be 1 drummer, 1 banner/icon, 2 shield orruks, 1 normal orruk. When you play them on the table every icon is actually just a banner with a different aesthetic, icons are bad atm. Subject to change as of the new book later this month.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

6 hours ago, Arkahn said:

You seems to have the same idea as mine, but with just one MK ! How perform the endless spell ? Would you change something in the list ? Why curse and not heal, it might be better to improve a bit more the MK's survivability 

Mine is something like this

I found the extra bodies are more useful than the second MK . The endless spell was awesome, the healing is solid but with good positioning you can use it to really shaft charges etc. Curse was a "maybe this will work" spoiler it didn't, I'd just take heal next time.

I'd probably drop the madcap, second warlord and the arcane tome. Then use the spare points to swap 5 Ardboys to 3GG's with 5 points spare. Lose 2 unbinds but honestly anybody it would matter against is running stupid shenanigans which an unbuffed unbind is normally worthless against.

Would then be a choice between hunters/hunters vs battle regiment.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

@Arkahn @Boggler 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Brutish Cunning
- Artefact: Metalrippa's Klaw
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (120)
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Warchanter (120)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Wurrgog Prophet (170)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Wardokk (85)
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse
Madcap Shaman (80)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (300)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Ardboys (190)
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Ardboys (190)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Core Battalions
Warlord
Warlord
Hunters of the Heartlands

Additional Enhancements
Artefact
Warbeat

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 133
 

Played Gloomspite, which was a joke. Morathi+Gotrek+15 snakes which I got a bit lucky in, DoT which I made a few minor mistakes and he was....liberal with his movement, then I faced Nagash, got a little lucky but forgot about redeploy and it cost me the game.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

Went to London open last weekend with Big Waaagh! It's better than pure ironjawz, the 6++ and 2+/2+ reliability just make everything so much stronger. Not to mention that the wurrgog/wardokk makes the ironjawz wizards into a joke.

I'd say that 10 is the sweet spot for ironjawz infantry. It's not so large as to be unwieldy but still represents a large threat to even thinks above it's points value. Also fast un on the cabbage is great.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

1 minute ago, NauticalSoup said:

Is there actually a game rule to that effect? Historically WarCom has been pretty unreliable when it comes to the actual mechanics of the game. And they may be referring to how it is intended to work in the new army book.

Well I was also talking about the new book but yeah on looking there isn't a current rule to that effect I can find.

On 7/23/2021 at 11:02 AM, Malakree said:

Since the Kruleboyz have their current MW works in big waaagh! I kinda hope they make Big Waaagh! the only faction but that each of Jawz/Splitters/Krule get extra bonuses related to their keyword the same way as the Gloomspite. Smashing and Bashing for example would work exactly the same in Big Waaagh! as Ironjawz, you can still only activate other Ironjawz units so the restriction is how diverse your force is rather than an allegiance.

 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

2 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

At least if you consider that the only good armies are Lumineth, Tzeentch and Seraphon (before 3ed, I would have add Kharadron but they are not about MW and their teleportation issue is resolved now).

Lumineth, Tzeentch, Seraphon, Snakes of Khaine, Skaven, anything with Gotrek.

2 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

I faced armies that I consider good, like Ossiarchs or Flesh Eaters and managed to win with good positioning and my buffed up MawKrusha. I will always take a MK over Gotrek. His move, mighty destroyer and our buffs are just so good on him. He really feels like the Queen when you play chess.

Gotrek walks into the middle of the board and that's it. With heroic recovery he easily has 14/15 wounds in a game which makes him basically impossible to kill without spamming a huge amount of single damage attacks.

2 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

Wait whaaat? 😀

Quote

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/08/discover-how-command-abilities-are-the-key-to-success-with-the-orruk-warclans-in-the-new-edition/: 
The Kruleboyz even have their own extra allegiance ability, Venom-encrusted Weapons, which is every bit as nasty as it sounds! What’s more, they gain this ability whether you field an army consisting exclusively of Kruleboyz or use them as part of a larger Orruk Warclans force.

 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

12 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

@Malakree Have also been plotting something similar ish, this is a double-edged compliment of sorts but I think one of the greatest strengths of a footboss is access to a cheap Amulet of Destiny for an Ironsunz krushaboss.

Hoping like crazy that we manage to stay relatively untouched in the next book, think we’re in a good place right now. 

Personally I feel like Ironjawz has all the same problems it had before AoS3 and suffers against all the same stuff it did. After 2 one day events I'd say that Big Waaagh! is just better, the 6+ ward is just so crucial vs any good army. We're also so dependent on the Warchanter +1 to actually output damage that anything which doesn't have it feels underwhelming.

The footboss wizard was cool but again has the same issues as an unbuffed weirdnob when trying to use Hand of Gork. I like him I just wouldn't take HoG on him (I don't think we need it) and instead grab something like levitate. Also ran into teclis and a slann so successfully cast 1 spell in 3 games, which was an irrelevant lifeswarm in the last game where I rolled the poor guy with a turn 1/2 double.

Still don't like Brutes but they hit the 10 man sweet spot hard for having multiple reinforced units which aren't awful. On the other hand units of 15 Ardboys are good but so unwieldy. I have no desire to spend 10mins optimizing a unit of 15 ardboys to get maximum attacks. Mawkrushas feel depressingly underwhelming for 500 points, they are either glass cannons or super tanky pillows and Gotrek being at 435 makes a mockery of them.

Honestly I'm struggling with lists at the moment and need to give it some more thought. Main issue I'm having is lack of models....

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

2 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

The Arrowboys were surprisingly effective. Although at first their range is really limited (18in) once they all fired their weight of dice with the +1hit +1wound of Big Waaagh! it felt really good. 

Quick point, the +1 hit/wound is melee weapons only.

2 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

I racked up 20 Waaagh! Points by turn 2. Felt great and on target. 10 first round, 12+ second round. After that I was just ready to go. Everything hit better. I got surprised however that I couldn't boost my hit anymore. I had the mentality of stacking my +1 hit buffs from 2.0. Since Smashin' gives a +1 to hit, I couldn't give a unit +1 to hit anymore with either a spell or an All-Out Attack. Gotta be weary of that. Another reason to not have too many CPs. Once all units are buffed in +1hit, I kept them for All-Out Defense.

You can apply more than +1 to modifiers you just can't apply more than +1 total to the final dice roll. So if you have +1 and your opponent applies -1 you can add another +1 to cancel his out negative out.

 

As a side note I'm going to a 1 day event tomorrow and I've suddenly discovered the perfect use for a Footboss.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495) in Command Entourage
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (120) in Command Entourage
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (120) in Command Entourage
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Megaboss (160) in Battle Regiment
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork

Battleline
15 x Orruk Ardboys (285)
- Reinforced x 2
15 x Orruk Ardboys (285)
- Reinforced x 2
5 x Orruk Brutes (150)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (150)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Core Battalions
Command Entourage - Magnificent
Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139

Arcane tome + footboss...It's a weirdnob shaman but with 7 wounds a 3 up save and is good in combat! Not to mention hand of gork fixes all the footbosses horrific mobility problems and actually wants to keep up with the MK making the footboss a great caster to maintain the Emerald Lifeswarm.

This is the greatest thing since Gorkamorka punched Sigmar!

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

1 hour ago, mrteige said:

I couldnt agree more. I really hope that the new battletome will "just" be the addition of kruleboyz, an update to big waaagh! and some point tweeks.

Since the Kruleboyz have their current MW works in big waaagh! I kinda hope they make Big Waaagh! the only faction but that each of Jawz/Splitters/Krule get extra bonuses related to their keyword the same way as the Gloomspite. Smashing and Bashing for example would work exactly the same in Big Waaagh! as Ironjawz, you can still only activate other Ironjawz units so the restriction is how diverse your force is rather than an allegiance.

Then you add in subfactions like Ironsunz which lockout the other allegiances, so if you pick Ironsunz you then become an old-school "Ironjawz" army.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

1 hour ago, Spiky Norman said:

I personally don't like the Ardboys models, so I run without them, even though I know they were and still are quite useful. But I really love the Brutes in Morgok's Krushas, so that was my initial reason to look into whether or not they would still be total garbage 🙂

About the Rippa's Snarlfangs, are you considering them useful just based on their 12" move, or is there anything else hiding there?

If you aren't using Ardboys then the Krushas are a good alternative around that price point for more defensive/zone control type roles that would normally be 5 man ardboys.

As to Rippa's, they are a fast and cheap unit which is always really useful to have to threaten exactly the kind of defence I listed above, small points controlling units which aren't super dangerous.

In addition they have a ranged weapon, which is always a benefit, not irrelevant melee damage especially from the mounts. Most important though is the 6" pile in, it means you can run and still pile in/attack, don't have to charge which stops the stand and shoot but it also means you ALWAYS get to activate them before the opponent.

For 70 points their only weakness is the drastically low wounds making them super fragile.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

Just now, ShaneHobbes said:

Does Arcane Tome let you pick from spell lores? I assumed you only were able to use mystic shield and arcane bolt from the wording on the artifact.

It makes them a wizard. The free spell lore enhancement then let's them take a spell. It's then both an Ironjawz and a Wizard so is able to take from the lore of the weird.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

What are people's thoughts on a warchanter with arcane tome. If you just want a wizard for hand of gork the lore is usable by any ironjawz wizard.

Seems like a solid option?

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

11 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

Morgok's Krushas didn't go up proportionally to brutes so they're probably fine for this tiny window pre-codex.

On the other hand, Ardboys fit snuggly into any space Krushas fit into and are mostly just better? Krushas do a hair more damage but the Ardboys are faster, have more wounds and their shield save. Krushas being a tiny squad are less vulnerable to battleshock than full brute squads but still, lose one guy and they can fail. It's not a big enough difference to never bring Krushas but they're not exactly standing out.

Plus they aren't battleline.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

@Arkahn those 45 points of float are painful. Could you swap 5 ardboys for some sort of bonesplitterz?

Savage orruks or boarboys would give more wounds/coverage and spend the points. Boarboys especially would give you some great mobility/screening options given that the warchanters are both spoken for.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

14 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

I've been in your camp for Brutes for a long time and still am for the most part. Granted it was only 1 game but it felt like night and day from 2nd to 3rd for Brutes. It was so much easier getting them into combat and +1 save is huge, especially when they have their own unit champion. I'm honestly tempted to try a list with one MBMK and two Foot bosses with Brutes.

I've got a few things I want to try out. Didn't really like the double MK. Want to try 15/15 ardboys and I'm also thinking about running a block of 30 gutripperz with a personal killaboss in big Waaagh! That should be gross with rally and gives a massive block the opponent has to actually wipe out.

 

EDIT: I'm also seriously thinking that an emerald lifeswarm to sit the mawkrusha might be close to mandatory now. D3 heal every hero phase and using it to block some envelops seems so good on paper.