Malakree

All they need to do to fix this is remove the Aetherquartz Broach, along with about 50% of the artefacts in the Malign Sorcery book.

I made a massive post about what points alterations we need. Contrary to my pie in the sky stuff I post on here I tried to actually be reasonable on there

280 points hahahahahahaha, I hadn't even realised it was so cheap. God that's ridiculous. Why is it FREE to put an anointed on the back of one that's so dumb I can't even articulate it properly. I'd say that the MawKrusha should be 400, I agree with you on that, and the Dragon Lord at 380. The frostheart phoneix 400 with an anointed on it, maybe 340 without.

Compared to the Dragonlord he's so overcosted it's unreal. Dragonfire is a 12" shooting phase attack which doesn't degrade vs the Destructive Bulk which only triggers on a charge. Same Wounds 2" extra movement at all profiles. 4+ rerollable save vs 3+ [3] at 4+/X+/-2/d6 (So benefits from +hit) vs [4] at X+/3+/-2/3 [X(6)] 4+/3+/-1/2 Strictly better than the tail 3 at 3+/3(2)+/-1/2 vs 4 at 3+/3+/-1/2 So we gain 1 attack with the Fists, 1 attack with the Choppa. 1 attack with the Rip-Tooth fist and +1 to save. We lose Reroll all saves and the claws which are infinitely better than the tail is. We also trade the Destructive Bulk for the much easier and more reliable Breath attack. Our only single advantage is the bellow which does nothing against a 4+ save 63% of the time. For this privilege we pay 440 points instead of 340 points. 100 points functionally for the Waaagh! Given the choice I would pay 40 points more to take a Dragonlord and a Warboss with Great Waaagh! banner, think about that.

From what I remember, and have read, the only wizards which are good for BCR are the fungoid and Butcher with Cauldron. As @CaptainSoup said you probably just want to do a conversion, the GW one is expensive and resin which really sucks. Not to mention that the moment someone says "butcher with cauldron in beastclaw" my mind jumps to this by @heywoah_twitch That gives you a perfect excuse to not buy the expensive resin kit, instead using an Ironblaster as the base model which is both plastic and only £21! You can really convert it into a beastclaw aesthetic to fit in with the rest of your army.

The problem isn't going to be fixed by an FAQ, they just got the points wrong. One thing you have to take into account is that the good players have stopped playing IJ, and destruction in general, which skews the rankings even more seriously than normal. @Sangfroid and @Chris Tomlin are probably the only two competitive Ironjawz players and they are playing other factions which means our rankings are even more artificially suppressed. @Donal being in 8th speaks to this point by showing a good player can still get a solid finish even if the faction itself is struggling. That said, I hadn't checked the final rankings since the event and jesus it's bad. Two relevant finishes across the GA being 8th and bonesplitterz at 35, third destruction at 80th with beastclaw. I will say though that I was playing my ironjawz and made a ton of mistakes. I think the whole weekend the only game I couldn't have won was the 5th, combination of the battleplan and his list just dumpsters me and anything I can attempt to do. The SoJ Tenebrael is the real kicker because it means the cabbage has to have a 1.1" bubble wrap around it until the Waaagh! turn occurs which essentially neuters the whole list.

@Aelfric A cabbage, 5 warchanters then MSU ggs. Allegiance: IronjawzLeadersMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)Orruk Warchanter (80)Orruk Warchanter (80)Orruk Warchanter (80)Orruk Warchanter (80)Orruk Warchanter (80)Battleline3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)5 x Orruk Brutes (180)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 164 14 extra attacks to distribute how you want and no issues with having enough units to hold objectives. Where ever your opponent tries to fight suddenly gets more attacks than we can trigger on an explosive turn without the rng. 170/600 would be 80 points on MSU. It would make them 150 per 5. I think 600 for 20 would be a great price point even without the reduction, 20x20x20 brutes would come in at 1800 points.

If we are reworking the Waaagh! it should be completely changed. 1 CP Map wide Once per Megaboss at the end of the charge phase. All Ironjawz gain +1 attack until the end of the following combat phase. In addition roll a d6 when you use it. On a 2+ You may select an Ironjawz unit to gain an additional +1 attack. On a 4+ That unit also gains +1 damage with all it's weapons. On a 6+ That unit may also pile in and attack immediately as though it were the combat phase. A unit may only do this once per turn. Prophet of the Waaagh! - You may select 2 different Ironjawz units instead of just 1 to gain the extra bonuses from this characters Waaagh! Forces multiple Megabosses if you want to trigger multiple Waaagh! allows us to use it in the enemies turn and generally makes it more tactical for both players while presenting a huge potential threat. Removes the ridiculous positional and unit requirements as well, actually rewarding larger units rather than MSU.

@broche So interesting question, as obviously this is relevant for balance purposes, is the issue with that list the cheap Ardboys or the Ardfist? (Personally I would have preferred they make the Ardfist battalion 1cp for 1 unit the same as for death. That's a different issue.) This discussion also does a good job of showing how overcosted Brutes are at 180 (Ignoring the obvious comparison of Evocators at 200). When attempting to concoct a list which runs close to competitive we are dropping them in favour of just putting more bodies/wounds on the board. Realistically, after GBH18, Ironjawz are having the BCR issue in that we cannot put enough wounds/models on the board to compete on objectives while also being able to put up a fight against our opponents. I think that's why we will see the huge switch over to Moonclan the moment they are released, which sadly is exactly the GW marketing strategy.

It's currently a 30 point discount for the max size. Honestly it might aswell not be there, right now ardboys are just as efficient at 20 as they are at 30, the only reason I'd add one to my ardfist list is because the ardfist itself an odd number and it stops the 1990 stuff which drives me up the wall. It used to be a full 90 points off the last 10 which was amazing, at 30 for those 10 it's garbage. When you consider sequitors are 400 for 20, chainrasps/skeletons are 280 for 40 and plaguebearers are 320 for 30 it really puts into perspective just how overcosted ardboys are at 450. Hell even Moonclan grots are better at 360 for 60. Imo 400 would be fine but an argument could be made for 420 or even 430. Ask yourself this, if ardboys were 400 for 30 would we suddenly be dominating top tables? Simple fact is that our units are not efficient at their current points values, don't have the special rules to carry them and we don't have the ridiculous allegiance abilities. Currently our ideal unit sizes are 1 or 2 blocks for all of them. The waaagh! actively disincentivises us to use anything but msu, our battalions actively promote msu and our large bases sizes/short ranges also cripple anything but msu. Even for the ardfist you want at least 2 units of 10 you can play aggressively with so that your single activation to get the 30 block back has those 2 units there for not only extra efficiency but to forcibly alter where the 30 block comes back. Every single one of our units loses efficiency past the second purchase. I would take 20-10 over 30 for my ardboys in 95% of lists.

So 1 unit of skeletons, or 2/3rds a unit of grots. I realise apples and oranges but it's not "horde" like. I do wish they would add a max unit discount to brutes/ggs. Ardboys - 160/400 GGs - 140/460 Brutes - 170/600 Would be nice to have an incentive to take max size units. Unlike right now where it's barely worth going up to 30 even with ardboys.

Yes it's a 1drop. Death has several things which target bravery, terrorist being the obvious one but also things from lady olinder. I just know I was attacked on it multiple times over the weekend, even if it's not in top lists we are going to be in the 3/5 range and facing a ton of death.

Yeah, I'd have to play the list in order to work out what artefacts I want to use. I was torn between Ignax and something more extreme like the Exiles torch. The reason not to make the WC the general is because it's throwing all your eggs into one basket. You want to play really defensively with the WC, keep out of LoS etc. so that the opponent has to actually deal with the Ardfist in their face. That's why you put the Thermalrider on the WC, so that you can quickly reposition them for the summon if you need to. At that point having the 10" waaagh! on it is just putting your most crucial piece in a vulnerable position. Thus it makes more sense to have the Footboss be your general, since you want to be playing aggressively instead. If I was going to go Prophet with a character it would actually be the weirdnob not the WC. EDIT: Just to reiterate, this was based on a hypothetical situation of "If you had the models" so my experience is limited to 3 games of a 10/10/10 Ardfist and more generic IJ lists. Edit2: @broche the one point I would make there is that I don't consider the boss skewer to be battleshock protection the same as I would the golden toof. +1 bravery is as much about protecting you from all the various bravery attacks as it is battleshock. It's why is should have had it as relic 3, bravery 9 is incredibly hard for them to attack you on and that goes to bravery 11 on a megaboss, it goes a long way to negating all the -1 bravery they throw at you.

The way I look at it. Take Waaagh! off the table, assume we can't use it, does the aetherquartz still hold a vast amount of dominance. When you look at the most prevalent armies at the moment we need to look at how any given list is attempting to beat them. Against death for example an ardfist/weirdfist isn't going to win that game by drowning the skeletons in attacks. At which point the broach is alright but not the only choice as it is in bloodtoofs.

1/3 when you spend a command point. 4 total by turn 3 gives an average of around 1.33 extra. This then adds .41 etc. Giving you an approximate 2ish (cba to do the exact math so overshot a bit) which is around 90 points. How are you getting close to an average of 4cp or 200 points? At best it acts as a ~1.6 modifier on (starting cp+round) from a purely mathematical perspective. When you consider that the list I made above, for example, isn't interested in actually killing most opponents suddenly the fact you get 2 extra waaagh! off on turn 3 is meaningless. Especially since you likely used the cps on other things anyway. I feel like an artist list which has aetherquartz as king should probably be a standard ironfist, you are playing for the single explosive turn rather than extended meatgrinder which an ardfist can excel at.

I'd probably start with something like this. Then work from there. Basic Idea is to swamp the board with a bunch of super hard to remove wounds. 2 wounds, 4+/6++ is a fricking nightmare to get rid of for any army, Big Choppas are on Boss since they have to roll separately anyway. I included a Footboss for a few reasons. Threatens the Waaagh! this is important imo because that unit of 30 Ardboys could suddenly become 3+/3+/-/1 with 5 or 6 attacks each. The fact you have no rend is irrelevant when you can throw out over 150 attacks. (see the Kunnin Rukk) 7 wounds with 3+ makes him our single tankiest foot hero, with cover he has a 2+ save. With an artefact he becomes one of our primary objective holders, ironically I would use him with the fungoid as objective holders. Actually decent at chewing through chaff, gives us something slightly less "pillowfisted" Gives us a general who we can confidently move forward with Brutish Cunning. Equally the artefact I included was very considered. I think the thermalrider cloak on the warchanter is going to be key because of how the Ardfist trigger is worded now. Due to the fact there is no "trigger window" we can use it during the movement phase AFTER we move the warchanter, this lets us use that movement to artificially impact where the Ardboys will come on, something which can easily let us steal games against opponents who don't expect it. Combined with a CP run we have a 14" flying move to get him where he needs to be for the summons. The Footboss clearly needs to use the other artefact so that he can hold objectives. There are a bunch of good options here, 4++ vs mortals, various mortal wound output, Daubing of Mork, Destroyer or Exile torch, I'd need to play with it to work out which I prefer though randomly banishing a giant enemy hero seems like it could be a laugh. A fungoid and weirdnob bring your objective heroes up to 4, which is pretty important for those missions. The fungoid is obvious, a ton of survivability and reasonable casting capability, however normally I really dislike the weirdnob, this would be one of those occasions however where it's potential can really shine, putting 93 Orruks on the board with 32 bases makes it way easier to trigger the +2 and soaking the mortals is less crippling. It also combines to be a huge threat with the realm spells, Bridge of shadows a unit of 20 Ardboys right next to an objective or put Inferno blades on them. Ofc Foot of Gork remains the ol' faithful of "I need a miracle right now". I guess the final point is Brutish Cunning. While I am tempted by a 2+ reduce rend by 1 Footboss in cover (throw in a nice Mystic Shield and Armour of Gork for Stardrake levels of obnoxious) the potential that Brutish Cunning gives to really mess with the opponents charge phase is unbelievable. Tag all those huge threat units with a 3" ardboy and watch them cry, then remove them in the combat phase when you suffer casualties, no you can't have those Evocators MW me into the floor. It also really hates on Nighthaunt who get bonuses on some units when they charge and instantly attack on a 9+ charge roll. Since the list is based around tarpiting the hell out of your opponent a good Brutish Cunning will easily be game winning. So yeah, an objective based list with some hilarious potential and great options which plays into the one thing destruction still does well. EDIT: I'd say this is true for Bloodtoofs, it's why I don't want to play the list anymore. I suspect we have some other lists which won't use it but they will be more focused around things like the Ardfist or Weirdfist.

@BobbyB how did you feel about the brutes in the list, they seem incredibly slow compared to everything else. Would you swap to ggs or spend the 40 spare to get 5 more brutes and 2ggs? I'd imagine a lack of bodies/wounds also hurt. Shame about the 40 points spare, 10 more and you could have had an extra CP!

So I played this list at blood and glory. Overall it was pretty reasonable and the main drawback was my own mistakes/greed. Did manage to kill the 1200pt khorne dragon though so! Imo the double grot shaman is mandatory if you are playing with realm spells, they are absolutely disgusting and must be abused. I also much preferred the ardboy focus than a brute focus. I primarily needed to pin stuff down and setup my massive waaagh! Turn. For that the 20 ardboys were amazing. On the unit of 10, they are "ok" it gave me another unit of bodies for screening/soaking/scoring and rounded the list out. Having 5 characters who were wizards or had artefacts was an enormous advantage. That third artefact though, I think with the prevalence of death it should have been a boss skewer. Losing the 1 drop was literally irrelevant. The fewest drops I faced was 7. Allegiance: IronjawzMortal Realm: HyshLeadersMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)- General- Trait: Ironclad - Artefact: Daubing of Mork Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Prism Amyntok Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)- AlliesMoonclan Grot Shaman (80)- AlliesBattleline20 x Orruk Ardboys (320) 13 shields + 2h10 x Orruk Ardboys (160) dual wield5 x Orruk Brutes (180)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)BattalionsIronfist (180)Bloodtoofs (120)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 160 / 400Wounds: 139 Honestly I think this is as refined as I can get my bloodtoofs, that said I found it either fell flat or was an unenjoyable game where my opponent sat and watched as I rolled hundreds of dice. This will probably be the last time I take a bloodtoofs/broach list until we get some serious changes. If I had the models I'd be running an ardfist but since I don't it will be a few different double monster lists. Either weirdest with idol or ironfist with double cabbage. The one thing I really miss is my unit of 30 ardboys, 10 more shieldboys would make them impossible to shift.

It's why I use them as a pair. A fungoid gives you the option for that 3rd cast in a turn and the rerolls are nice. Additionally the Fungoids survivability is significantly better than the Moonclan which makes it better at holding objectives, I agree the spell is garbage but you will almost never be casting that spell anyway. If I were to add a third it would be another Moonclan but they get so much better when you aren't specifically relying on them to get that one key spell off, I said back in the GHB17 thread that the Moonclan shamans are far better as the 2nd wizard than they are as the first. I'd say the opposite is true of the fungoid.

Honestly I'm leaning into fungoid+moonclan shaman. It gives you 2 wizards for the scenarios which need it. 2 or 3 spells with solid multipliers and stops your opponent from just btfoing your one wizard. The weirdnob is just to expensive for most lists and doesn't let us powerhouse against magic heavy lists. Equally I'd rather spend the extra 20 points to split a wurrgog into those 2 gaining the increased utility, survivability and raw casting power.

So we pegging the trogg at 6 wounds or 7 base?

My point being that as the number of bonus attacks goes up the relative difference decreases. When you then factor in the huge amount of random survivability which is floating around at the moment and our relative ability to outfight armies like dok or deepkin is very limited. Also the 5+ armour save isn't a usable number at the moment. None of the things which are going to smash us really care about that kind of thing. If we remove The save altogether, so wych aelves, Is the ardboys damage table. It's slightly better than 27 wounds which is 23 after their 6++ Brutes are averaging 35 which equates to around 29 after the 6++ Compare this to the no extra attacks ardboy are 7.5 wounds vs 10.5 from brutes. The 4 extra attacks is a 23% wound rate increase for the brutes while with no extra attacks it's a 40% increase. Point being that as you add on more extra attacks the relative difference between the two goes down. This is only aggravated when you consider the potential lost along with wound lost. At 12 wounds lost the brutes are now crippled while the ardboys have 40% of the unit still alive. Given the vast amount of ways we are going to get chipped I find the survivability difference makes way more of an impact than the damage potential. Imo destruction as it stands atm is an objective based allegiance not a combat one. There are to many factions which roll over us with ease.

I think as a general rule we are no longer able to right other armies. They are to strong and cost efficient. As a result we are leaning into an attrition style of play which favours ardboys over brutes. This is especially true with the new waaagh! Stacking. The difference between 5 brutes with +1 and 10 ardboys with +1 is almost neglible by the time they have 4+ extra attacks. 60 at 3+/3+/-1/1 or more. For 20points less you get twice the bodies, way better battleshock, 1/3 again wounds, 6++ save and the drummer/banners. Personally I'd be trying an ardfist if I could but I'm 60 ardboys short. I do like my current bloodtoofs list though, especially if tournaments start adopting the realm rules/spells and terrain warscrolls like blood and glory has. Having the potential for really are teleports is helps us unbelievably.

This is exactly why you should play IJ, for a love of the army. It's why I play them. I do come off as being very pessimistic but primarily that's to make sure people know what they are in for. It's not that we will never win, we are lacking tools and it's an uphill battle but you can take victories. Currently I'm still playing bloodtoofs, I'm taking them to bloodtoof and glory! This is the list I've gotten to. I'm experimenting with the relics/command trait but the units are solid. Allegiance: IronjawzMortal Realm: HyshLeadersMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)- General- Artefact: Daubing of Mork Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Prism Amyntok Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)- AlliesMoonclan Grot Shaman (80)- AlliesBattleline20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)5 x Orruk Brutes (180)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)BattalionsIronfist (180)Bloodtoofs (120)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 160 / 400Wounds: 139

As I said on the previous page, Ironjawz are gimped in the current GHB. All our stuff is overcosted for what it does and our warscrolls are desperately out of date. We are a T2 army, we can match off against the T1 armies but the T0 ones will crush us reliably with no issues.