DanielFM

Came for the rumours, didn't stay for the off-topic attempts at comedy ? We really need some meaty rumours to bring this thread up. Where are you, rumour-mongers?

From my point of view and experience, Tempestors and Fulminators are the best. The former for cheapness and being a tough annoyance in small units, and the latter for resilience and general close combat potential. Some people dismiss Tempestors and Fulminators in this as their breath attack got changed, and see Concussors as a viable alternative. But I don't really see the merit in their argumentation. 12" Lightning Breath is weaker but far easier to use in a turn you charge or arrive from Scions. And Concussors lost the possibility of triggering their mortal wounds on 5+ with to-hit buffs.

They are better indeed. Cheaper Hunters, Palladors, Hurricane Raptors and even Aetherwings. Shock and Awe (-1 to hit if you charge the turn you come from reserves) helps them a lot as they come closer to the enemy and get easier charges. Even Longstrikes, while they stayed the same in points, got Headshot on unmodified 6's, so they get mortal wounds regardless of Look out Sir, Artifacts and other protection for characters. Plus the Command Ability of Anvils of the Heldenhammer gives them extra shooting easily. People will tell you they are still bad. But they can't deny that they are better than before.

Libs are not overpriced compared to the rest of the game, but they are really average. Nothing that stands out. Longbeards are way tougher and attack better with greataxes. Orruk Ardboys are cheaper per model and not really softer (rolling 6 in 1 dice is equivalent to rolling a 1 and rerolling, if not better), with the Orruks not armed with shields attacking way better. Tzaangors are once again cheaper by model, way faster and their offensive output is insanely better. Direwolves are a lot cheaper, faster and hit similarly on the charge. Even Sword& Shield Freeguild Guard offer the same resilience for less points, only by wounding on 4+ instead of 3+ (you don't bring Liberators for those punny attacks anyway). I could keep going on and on. Hi! There is nothing wrong with Vanguard, and with the changes un the new battletome they are at the very least a bit better. If you think outside of the box and get the most out of their flexibility and deployment tricks, you can surprise many players and do a lot more than they are supposed on paper. Look here for an example of a list combining Vanguard and Sacrosanct units: In my opinion, the Soulstrike Brotherhood Battalion is a nice, easy way to get a Command point, extra Artifact, less deployment drops and a rule that takes Castigators from meh to interesting. Don't be discouraged and don't follow the clone netlists blindly!

Yeah, 3+ save would have fixed them. Come on, they move 4 and get nothing in return! But the time for that went away. It sounds quite unlikely that GW would change them until the next battletome (in 1,5-2 years?).

That's sounds awfully a lot like "they are good at dying" ? Why not invest just a bit more to get a unit which can do the same role but better? You don't really have a role (at least in Matched) if you are not the best at it.

Their 6+ ability trigger in to hit rolls. More rolls=better. Plus Celestar Ballista(s) from Scions+cover=2+ save is a really cool combo.

It seems like a cool update that takes advantage of the new toys. Drakesworn can get reroll 1's from Mystic Shield, so why not giving him protection against MW? 4+ nulify spells is not bad, and 4+ save against MW from Aqshy is better (even if I hate Realm Artifacts, for that very reason).

Random note: with a +1 attack CA on them, Retributors (without Starsoul maces) and Evocators deal practically the same damage (12,4 vs 12,7). Stacking 2 +1 attack CAs would probably make Retributors actually better than Evocators. Worth it? Maybe not. But it's there if you absolutely must use those Retributors. Additional note: tear those hammers and stick glaives, Protectors are even better than they were before!

Nope. They are objectively worse than Evocators. GW messed this time, hard. Ideal world, they would lower their points in a FAQ/GHB. If we get unlucky, they will up Evocators and leave us with not one but two overpriced units ?

A lot better! But, what you mean by 2x5 Liberators? Are they 10? I still see too many of them, they are a deadweight IMHO. 5 of them to hold a objective are ok for 100 points, but more seems too much. I would change them for 5+5 and 5 Judicators, and use those 140 points elsewhere. You have 40 points left, enough for an Endless Spell. Take advantage of it! (Together with the other 140 points you could even get 3 more Longstrikes!)

Oh sorry, it really felt like a AoS1 list. I would recomend the Drakesworn instead of the LCoSD. He won't be unkillable, sure, but he has a really good buff for Fulminators (better than LCoSD), +1 to bravery in a decent range (currently very useful against Nighthaunt or DoK) and is a nice 100 points cheaper. Liberators have completely been made obsolete by Sequitors. I understand they are here because you need the LCOSD as the general for Staunch Defender. But the opportunity cost of doing so is currently huge. No Sequitors, no good CA from Stormhosts... Do you really expect each specific unit to be mentioned in a FAQ answer? If the wording explains exactly their case, they are included. I don't think you should feel bad about it.

I think it should work as well as it would have done in the previous battletome. That's the problem, though: it doesn't take advantage of any of the new upgrades (except potentially new Scions and Shock and Awe). There is nothing wrong about it except being too traditional. Just an example: Anvils of the Heldenhammer Stormhost would allow you to throw terrifying firepower with your Longstrikes.

Why two Celestial Blades? You can only cast It once. Plus greatmaces for Evolines is a bug. They can't use them. Their only option is Grandstaves (2 for each 3)

Yes, they are artifacts the same way Treasured Standards and Lights are. They are simply extra categories.

Fulminators (riders) do 5,33 average unsaved wounds against 4+ save. Concussors do 4,55 including the mortal wounds. As you can see, Fulminators do more damage while being cheaper, and are more resilient against shooting. Concussors only have the pile-in stun going for them. With access to Heraldors, Fulminators should be charging every turn if you want to comit to protracted combats. With all this info, do you really see Concussors as highly recomendable?

Only problem is identical pose and head (this can be easily solved by head swap though).

That's way more reasonable.

I hope Gavriel gets FAQed to not stack, together with other CAs. It's absurd that you can almost guarantee several charges from Scions by only investing in a Battalion. It's foolproof, and I pressume quite frustrating for the opponent.

It's either OP for people who interpret it as "excess wounds are discarded", weak for people who understand it like you (and has no experience with it, me included), and nice for some people who has already played it according to that interpretation yet they have found it deceptively useful. What can be said? They do less damage than Sequitors (you already know), they are more frail than Sequitors (same) and Libs with shields. Buffed with Mystic Shield and Empower they could be decent. But there are better choices. Their only saving grace is cheap Battleline filler. You get 40 points VS fielding Sequitors: use them well.

I know you hate the unit now Bellfree but they are quite cheap for what they bring. 10 3+ rr1's, 8 3+4+ shots, 2 4+ MW shots and some moderate punch in CC with (your hated) hit debuff aura on top is quite a lot for 220 points. 40 points less than Concussors justify the difference in CC output, but you don't bring Tempestors for that. Fulminators beat both them and Concussors at being a tanky beatstick. They are a tanky annoyance that can do decent damage without engaging (with the help of a Drakesworn bow) and kill/block weak/shooty units in CC. They are slower, tankier (except against MW) Vanguard Palladors. I accept that your experience with their new rules can be underwheelming. But it's not my case. And I can't bear myself to recomend Concussors, sorry. Their Hammers no longer interact with the Drakesworn buff, they cause less MW per point than Retributors and perform worse than Fulminators.

It's either Tempestors (cheap, shooty) or Fulminators for me. Concussors and Desolators aren't good enough even after the points drops.

Good point. It's two CAs, but if you are playing Tempest Lords and swimming on CAs, you can make a unit run 8. Or make several units run more (50% if the time as much as the auto 6 run) with a single CA. It's just that it's a mobility boost, and a subtle one. Damage and defense buffs tend to catch the eye more.

I guess with a good Stormhost CA (f.ex. Anvils) it's not as bad. It could be another useful tool from time to time. 1/3 of the time it's better than a 6" run, with the plus of affecting more models. If a pair of Sequitor units have to leg it to an objective after killing a target, +2 to run could be very welcome. You know, I'm an incurable possitivist ? that's what we got for our mystic space goat. Let's deal with It!

The CA really ruins the Tauralon version for me (and yet I'm fielding it ?). Was it that difficult for GW to give him a decent command ability? I would really like to have the LAoGC CA while using a Tauralon, but that's so many points... I can't justify both. It doesn't help that I most of my lists include the Tauralon together with a Lord Aquilor or even a Drakesworn