Azamar

I hope you don’t think I’m awkward by keeping replying to this, but it is interesting I completely get what you’re saying (and I’m used to start vs end of phase abilities and all that , and how these would interact with normal combat order). But my point in my last post is, is High tide a start of phase ability? Its not outright stated as such in the rule’s wording, but the idoneth faq question I mentioned specifically uses it as an example of a start of phase ability. Still not sure how to copy and paste so I’ve screen capped it below. Look at the first sentence of the answer in particular. There’s two ways to interpret this really: 1. The High Tide ability is intended to happen at the start of the phase, and the idoneth faq should be considered confirmation of this, in which case it follows the rules in the same way as all other start of phase abilities. (The first half of the answer in that question is basically repeating the start of phase question that you posted) 2. High Tide isn’t a start of phase ability, the wording of the ability should be taken literally and the line in the faqs, saying it is start of phase, is a mistake. I think it’s 1. myself, as the faqs are meant to offer rules clarifications after all. But I admit I can imagine errors pop up in the faqs as well so it could be a genuine mistake. But again, hopefully you can see why I don’t think it’s completely clear at this point. This is largely theoretical for me, as even if I run into Gristlegore at any point, it’ll only actually matter on a single turn, so I’m probably splitting hairs anyway.

Disclaimer: you’re probably right, or will be proven to be in time, but just to throw a spanner in the works: the idoneth designers commentary describes high tide as a start of phase ability. not sure how to copy and paste from a pdf on phone, but wording is “if both units can use an ability at the start of a phase (such as the high tide allegiance ability)...” the full question in that faq directly relates to two idoneth armies armies fighting each other, but I would think that would still apply to other similar abilities? That would also suggest that, if another deepkin player charged me in high tide, they would attack with their units in their turn before I could use the eels discharge ability. Even if I'm wrong hopefully you can see why I’m confused on that, as I was thinking of the idoneth faq.

Hmm. Good point- exact wording is “at the start of the combat phase” for the FEC ability. Although high tide trait says your units “fight before *any* other units, which might still supersede it? Probably one for an FAQ

The player whose turn it is decides which order special abilities activate, so in your turn High tide will override savage strike (but he’ll get to go first in his turn 3). Hitting targets at precisely the right time is the whole MO of idoneth anyway, isn’t it?

I don’t see why it wouldn’t? They're cast just like any other spell

Late to the discussion, but the idoneth ability will usually be on units that are more powerful than the FEC ones. +1 attack on a morrsarr’s weapons hurts more than +2/3 attacks on a ghoul and so on, and even the stronger FEC units usually have a worse hit roll. Speaking as an idoneth player with no interest in collecting FEC it doesn’t seem so very bad to me (undoubtedly strong but not broken). time will tell though I guess.

I spy some Bretonnian heraldry on the FOC’s endless spell fence thing. Well, the fleur di lis anyway.

Not 100% sure but weren’t these changes from the beasts of chaos battletome, and wrath and rapture? I seem to remember skyfires going down a bit in price when BOC came along

They already did. In airships. Results were... mixed. 😛

It’s based on the number of models at the start of the phase

If you use your spearmen and archers as “counts as” dreadspears and glade guard you can still put together a serviceable army. You’ll only have the order allegiance (although the artefacts are decent) and synergy will be a bit all over the place, but with a bit of thought in army selection and deployment it can work. I doubt it would hold up in an ultra competitive environment, but if it’s for local club/flgs play you should get by just fine- my mixed aelf army does ok

In competitive lists they’re generally left out, I think, because they’re not optimal for your points. The allopex costs the same as a unit of ishlaen or thralls and does much less damage than either. The leviadon has a similar issue- it does good damage but for the points you could have 6 morrsarr , or 30 thralls which would have more versatility and damage output, albeit without the cover bonus. That being said, in a more casual setting I bloody love them both. The allopex does kind of suck, but every so often it does bite the head off an important character, and visually in an Akhelian force it breaks up the sea of eels nicely. It sounds like people get a bit more mileage with them in larger units at high tide, but I would have though this would make battleshock risky. The leviadon meanwhile has consistently performed for me. I take it as part of an Akhelian corps which makes it great as a stable core/ rally point for the army, and if you can get it into combat at full health, with lord of the deep on it at high tide, it makes an excellent battering ram. Plus I get a Great A’tuin vibe off the model. I can’t see me leaving mine out of my list any time soon.

Warscrolls still seem to stick around in the app if that helps- wolfriders are there under gitmob for example

Remember if a unit charges, it is still eligible to fight even if there’s no enemy models left within 3” (check out the pile in rules on page 230 in the main book) . With a 3” pile in and a 2” range on the spears, it’s hard for your opponent to completely leave the morrsarr guard out with casualty removals.

The list I had in mind came 7th at Blackout earlier this year but was more of an eel spam than I remembered (and no eidolon): basically 2 tidecasters, a souldscryer, 3x10 thralls and 18(!!) morrsarr in 2 units and 3 ishlean guard. I reckon Jackstriecher’s list looks like a good way to use Thralls- like he says, focusing on one or the other between them and eels works better as several characters only buff one type of unit. But a thrall list with a few scattered eels in could still work (although I should add I don’t play in competitions so my view might be skewed)

I’ve seen a few builds based around a tidecaster general (to reverse the tides) and a mix of thralls, eels and the aspect of the storm with the fuethan enclave. This allows run and charge on the first turn then high tide on turn 2, which generally messes up anything the thralls can reach. Ultimately depends if you’re taking your army to tournaments or competitive clubs. If not, then fill out with what you want. I’ve squeezed a leviadon, allopex and an aspect of the sea into my 2000 points list and seem to be getting away with it! As for eel nerfs, it would be unusual for the warscrolls to get changed but it’s likely they’ll go up in points a bit. For armies with volturnos and massed eels that will be punishing, but if you’ve got a good balance of units then it may just mean a few tweaks to fit your army into your points limit, or no change at all if other units you have come down in cost (reavers and allopexes seem likely and possibly the leviadon as well)

Mole people as the next destruction battletome. You heard it here first

Ive has a few games now with the following list, and seem to be having a fair bit of success (albeit in a non competitive environment) Sorceress on black dragon (general) -Impossibly swift -Incorporeal retainer Sorceress -anklet of epiphany Sorceress 10 bleakswords 10 bleakswords 20 darkshards 20 executioners 20 black guard 5 drakespawn knights 1 hydra. Thrall warhost Quicksilver blades I’ve had 3 games with this army - 1 against legions of nagash based around a death march with supporting morghasts, and 2 against a khorne gore pilgrims army, accompanied by a bloodthirster, skarbrand and 30 bloodletters- all of them went pretty well. I’ve been using each unit of bleakswords as a screen for one of the elite units, using terrain where I can to stop enemies going round the sides. Assuming there’s no double turn, and against a tough target or several units close together, this gives the elites potentially three lots of melee attacks (pile in to the charging unit once the screen is dead, then in my turn the battalion ability attacks followed by a normal charge and combat) before anything can hit them back, which has proved devastating when it goes right. The best performing unit in the army seems to be the black guard. In the first game they(with admittedly some help from the darkshards) tore through a unit of black knights and 4 morghasts using the above tactic, and they saw the bloodletters off pretty handily in game 2 as well. A special nod to the executioners as well, who underperformed against the undead, but killed skarbrand in both games against khorne- the first time inflicting 16 mortal wound on him in one go. My opponent wasn’t thrilled by that, but given there was a unit of bloodletters kicking around doing mortal wounds on a 3+, I wasn’t brimming with sympathy! 😛 As a final note- so far the sorceresses have survived every game, and a couple of times have been close to the only models still alive- the ultimate goal for a darkling coven host I think! Edit: sorry, I have no idea why that’s come out in massive text!

It’s a built in cone of shame I think. Certainly looks like it would be hard for Karnak to reach his <ahem> bits.

Don’t you need a couple more units for a grudgebound war throng? Or am I missing something here. I’d considered trying to build an army around that battalion myself, but I found the amount of units to take limiting (as it’s hard to fit in many units larger than the minimum unit size)

Rincewind and the luggage from Terry Pratchett’s discworld Series.

I’m would say start with the minimum units for the battalion and work from there. A sorceress, 3x10 of the darkshards/ swords/spears, 10 executioners and 10 guard is 880 including the battalion cost and a good framework to build on.

To my knowledge there’s no rule against stacking different abilities unless the wording of the abilities specifically says otherwise. Yes the abilities have similar wording, but there’s no reason you can’t use each ability in turn. They are not rerolls. Note ignax’s scales only work against mortals, not normal wounds, so it isn’t identical to witness to destiny.

Yes, as does master of defence. So if you take that, an archmage and ignax’s scales, it’s possible to have a Phoenix with 4+ 4+ 6+ 6+ every time it takes a mortal wound. Your opponent may throw a tape measure at you if you attempt that one though, so proceed with caution.

Looks like a good starting point- I’m planning a similar list. But you will need to split those dreadspears up into smaller units unfortunately- you need at least 3 units of dreadspears/darkshards/bleak swords for the thrall warhost