SwampHeart
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Everything posted by SwampHeart
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It would only affect the base armor save - any 'save' taken after damage isn't termed a 'save' in game terms.
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Sorry I did misquote you - here is exactly what you said. You said 'sub optimal' was a cringe term and you didn't say whining you instead said 'b*tching' and then accused people of complaining. So yes I did misquote your exact words but clearly not your intent. Ultimately my point still stands - this thread is for discussing, honestly and clearly, Beasts of Chaos. Some of our units are objectively poor and its OK to say that. If someone wants to make the statement that they find a unit garbage that is their prerogative and a chance to discuss the opinion. Attack the opinion, not the language used to deliver it. Also Bullgors ARE a bad unit - from a competitive view point they under perform when compared to other similar units internal to the book. That is a statement of fact. That said I'm done. I made the point I intended to make. Back to more actual BoC discussion and less 'tone of the thread' discussion.
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That'd be great if that was your initial foray into this rather than saying people who think Bullgors aren't good are making 'cringe worthy' statements and that people should just make better decisions instead of analyzing lists. However those are what you lead with which is why I've kept at it because initially your general thought process seemed to be 'negative people kill people's enthusiasm for the army and are just whining' which isn't the case at all. Various people present their opinions on units in a variety of ways. For example the number of people in this thread who think Enlightened are undercosted are basically expressing that they feel like that unit gets an A+ as far as efficacy goes. As to your question - the correct answer regarding a cheap screen is almost always Ungors - even with 20 pts left over. I myself have had success with the large Gor block but after talking with @Solaris (in a very direct and even argumentative way) I've realized his opinion regarding Gors (they're generally bad) vs. Ungors (they're generally better) is the correct opinion. I bring this up because its a perfect example of a 'non helpful' form of conversation that generated a meaningful change in opinion. I continue to belabor the point because this thread should be for OPEN opinions regarding our army - if someone thinks that Gors are trash and have no place in a list they should say so. Then other people can say well I disagree because (insert reasons). Statements generate discourse, the stronger the statement the stronger the discourse. I don't feel like anyone should be obligated to say 'Gors aren't great but maybe they could be OK if' if they just straight think Gors are trash. This is a toy soldiers forum not a political one. One may make arguments regarding other venues of conversations regarding a more measured tone but its pretty OK to get passionate and vocal about your opinion on your army mans.
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I'm going to offer a counter point that the point of this thread is to discuss BoC options. I don't think its helpful to couch unit assessment in vaguely positive terms like 'it could work for you but'. I know I certainly wouldn't read or be involved in the thread if that was the overall gist. If the unit isn't a good unit then it deserves to be named as such - in part to help highlight those concerns and percolate good feedback up. Also there are people who come here to help make buying choices and I know I'd rather get honest advice if I'm deciding on how to spend my money. Ultimately I don't think its fair to label people 'salty' or say they make 'cringe worthy' statements when they're offering valid (and generally well founded) criticism of the book. As I've stated multiple times the book is overall a hit I think but I don't think Bullgors are a tremendously useful unit in that context. People are allowed (and should be encouraged) to have a variety of opinions on various units and I don't think should feel compelled to be silent or play to a falsely positive narrative if that doesn't fit their view point. We cannot. The only allies you can take must have the 'Slaves to Darkness' keyword. We cannot ally with Skin Wolves or the Preytron - GW doesn't really design their ally system around FWs rules. I have a friend who plays LoA (and I have a small LoA collection myself) so it can be very frustrating.
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This is a very valid point but one that doesn't really support Bullgors. I've argued in this thread our primary strength as an army is board control and scoring. Our best tools to do that are very effective walls with high speed which of course Bullgors are not. If the goal is to exert board control and use specific punch units to help maintain board control there are far better options in the form of Enlightened on Disc. I don't say this to be salty, just to point out that while I agree with your overall assessment I don't think its actually an argument for Bullgors.
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Not that I speak for everyone but in my experience this is 100% correct. I do think that the non bullgor units have some functionality (not that works for me personally but I can see valid arguments). The Doombull, Cygor, and Ghorgon can probably all fit in various lists but actual bullgors? Bestigors are just a better option in every way I've experienced.
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I was operating off your statement of 'lamenting how bad the Greatfrays are' - I apologize for the misunderstanding as it appeared to me that you were saying all of them. You did list specifically Allherd but I figured if your intent was to suggest that one is bad while others are better you'd have said something like 'how bad some are'. Again a misunderstanding of your words on my part - my bad. The trick is to summon them rather than try to pay for them and have them keep up (plus spawn don't fit in our battalions and hurt our 1 drop ability). If you summon then and plan for that you can pretty reliably have one in range for the turn it matters. And honestly as much as people like to poo poo on the Beastlord - its clear he's the designed user of the Gnarlblade - he has built in re-roll 1s to hit. But I do agree with you regarding Allherd and Darkwalkers - both are very lacklustre to the point where I don't think they'll ever see a competitive table. Maybe Allherd at low point levels but even then I'm not sold. To the point Kenshin made - we've got 3 options and where SCE have more they deal with the same thing where clearly one or two of those options is hands down the best choice and it can be frustrating.
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I must disagree as Gavespawn is pretty much all bonus - there isn't a bad option in it. If I have a complaint its that Gavespawn is so clearly better than the other 2 that it removes the option to choose (at least for competitive play). Its unreal that one of the 3 options just stands head and shoulders over the other two. The only reason to not take Gavespawn is to have a Shaggoth general (aka the only set of decent command traits in the book). I won't get back into the Battalion discussion - suffice to say I disagree with your assessment. Yes you may run it as BoC or BoK. If you choose to run it as BoK your Bullgors are not battleline (they're only battleline in a BoC army with a Doombull General). Your general would get his command trait from BoK. You are fine to run Gors as your battleline because as you stated they are just a battleline choice. As to how you would know that? Its stated in the matched play points section of the BoC book (the exact language is 'Battleline in a Beasts of Chaos army if general is a Doombull). This is correct, effectively you wouldn't be able to legally select any of those options. If you want to play BoK you should run something besides pure BoC or else you miss opportunities.
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To preface this - I really like our book. I think we got overall great treatment for GW and a book that can play competitively even if its maybe not at the tip top of the ladder but it certainly is in the mix and has the tools to win a major. That said I really wish our Battalions unlocked new allies for us - I love tinkering with allies and finding new and clever ways to use them, but that's really no fun when your only choice is StD. Granted this may change if StD ever get a book but currently its a small pool that doesn't bring much to the table. And before someone reminds me we can take the god specific battalions in those respective books, I know, I want to run BoC though not DoT, MK, or BoK.
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Fair point and good math - the 25mm base is actually more helpful in alot of cases as well. I may go ahead and order some more and try them out.
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I've played with both - I prefer the option to generate a CP even if I haven't spent one is all it boils down to. The AQB needs you to spend 3 CP to get 1 where the Knowing Eye should net you 2 across the game. Basically I prefer the smoothing that TKE provides. I unfortunately don't have much experience with them - there are a few reasons. First is a purely personal reason of having never liked the models or the concept (I like the Brayherd elements the most). Second a unit of 3 Bullgors seems less efficient than 10 Bestigors to me. I can't provide much consistent advice on their use so I'll have to let one of the Bullgor experts step in to talk more about their best applications. Not a bad thought process - I'm interested to see how it works out. You've hit the nail on the head as to why I personally won't be investing - them not being battleline is crippling for me. If they were a battleline I'd probably experiment with them more. I have however had a great deal of play out of summoning them as excellent missile units for early game disruption. I actually think their base size is a benefit - its gamey but turning that thing sideways allows you to contact very large swathes of units if you need/want to.
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It is if you take Darkwalkers at all, it is if you take the Brayblast Trumpet as well. That's what I mean by opportunity cost - there are items that you can take to enhance or bolster ambush but if you play TC then those are lost opportunities (to take a better Fray or Artifact). I'm really not sold on this concept - our available options to boost rend are: Tendrils, 12" range, Shaggoth Spell, Cast on a 7+, or Herdstone Aura, takes 3+ turns to reach opponent's side of the table where I'm fighting. Bestigors are good, they hit hard, I use them. They're not Eels or buffed (more reliably) witches. I also use Enlightened who punch very well and are super fast but I still don't rate our total offensive output on the same level as the true hammers of the edition. I'd also like to be clear - I don't intend to attack or belittle your ideas. I see merit and understand where you're coming from and I enjoy the discussion. I know text doesn't carry tone so I just want to make it clear that I think you've got valid points, just ones that haven't worked out in my personal experience. So I've played about 20 games (including 2 3 round tournaments) at this point and I've used a decent swathe of our units. My core building block is 30x Gors*, 2 units of 10x Bestigors, a Bray Shaman, and 5x Centigors. This fulfills basically every battalion I consider useful and then I can build from there. I've toyed around with big Ungor units (ambushing or otherwise), more MSU Bestigors, the Shaggoth, and quite a few other things. What I've found is I like a 2 Walls and 3 Towers setup - by this I mean 2 bulky units that can absorb the first charge/get in the mix of things and then 3 units that punch back. My current list (if you're interested) is: Gavespawn -Beastlord - Mutating Gnarlblade (with this artifact and his innate re-rolls I find this makes the BL a compact 90 point butcher) -Great Bray Shaman - All Knowing Eye, General (Unravelling Aura) (I make him my general because he tends to be back further and allows me to Inspire better) -Great Bray Shaman -Tzaangor Shaman -30x Gors - Shields -10x Bestigors -10x Bestigors -10x Ungors (summoning snacks) -20x Tzaangors -6x Enlightened -3x Enlightened on Disc -5x Centigors Phantasmagoria of Fate -40 pts of various endless spells I'm tinkering with *I prefer Gors over Ungors for the role because I find the 4+ save more valuable than the 10 extra bodies.
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By comparison to what? When I look at armies with a punch I look at DoK, Idoneth Eels, Murderhost, and similar builds. Our offensive output is acceptable and can hold its weight but they certainly don't punch like the true heavy hitters. I can tell you this, after about 20 games under my belt against a variety of lists, if you're expecting to win games via our offensive output you will be disappointed. You need to be able to score scenarios quickly and take an early lead and the best way to do that is exert strong board control. The offensive nature of our units only really serves to give us a chance to prevent our opponents from going through us too quickly (by giving us the tools to limit their attacks back). Our major strength is body count and movement, being able to press your opponent on turn one, to work on boxing him out and winning the zoning game is the key. If he goes first he gets that opportunity instead of me. 1 out of 18 or 1 out of 5? Sure in my 'roll up a game at the LGS' its one out of 18. At major events its pretty quickly becoming 1 out of 5. And the issue is at 1 out 5 its a major loss of opportunity to build with any level of Ambush in mind because that's one game where my 'gimmick' just doesn't work. Summoning is a fine way of 'ambushing' units advantageously but I can't see the benefit of ambushing vs just moving 6+3+(d6+1)+(2D6+1) a turn. Ambushing means you lose access to one of our actual most potent tools which is run and charge. If you ambush you're relying on 9" charges (or an unreliable cogs) whereas if you just take advantage of your naturally strong movement you can create much more manageable charges. I fully admit I view BoC in a competitive lens and have strong opinions on what does and doesn't work. But I've also played with the army quite a bit since release so I feel like I've got a pretty strong grasp on the stronger functional elements. I started out trying to work with Ambush as a viable method of play but the more I use it the more it feels like a trap option - summoning is the only ambush I need.
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I can't see playing our army with the control provided by going first. There are certain scenarios against certain armies that we just lose if we don't have that choice. Our biggest strength as an army is board control and everything has to support that concept. The army doesn't hit hard enough or stay long enough to win games on brute strength - its a finesse-y horde army that requires you establish board control early and maintain it long enough to outscore your opponent while he decimates your units. For that reason alone I'll never play a non-battalion army - I go the Tzeentch route because it literally has no tax and allows you take nearly everything in the book. The Nurgle Battalion is a close second as far as flexibility is concerned. You can ambush with a battalion - not every unit needs to be deployed in ambush when you deploy the battalion. So I'd just build whichever battalion suits your needs and then deploy via ambush as makes sense. Honestly I don't have a ton of advice for building using Ambush because (as I've stated several times) with the possibility (and I'd argue certainty for many events) of total commitment seeing play I don't want to invest cost (opportunity or other) in planning for a tactic that may not be available to me. Ultimately I don't think Ambush plays to our strengths as an army at all - the army is incredibly fast from the deployment line and I think ambushing makes some charges harder that would likely be easier with just our base movement (I also don't rate Bullgors and Dragon Ogres worth fielding so keep that in mind with that assessment). But as to the rules query if you have 8 units in your battalion, nothing (that I am aware of) precludes you from deploying 4 in ambush with 4 on the table to counter balance.
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Our Battalions aren't good for the bonuses they provide (largely) - they're good because they allow us a ton of control over our drop count, grant us access to a valuable CP and another artifact. Effectively you've got to look at BoC Battalions as 200 points for running a 1-2 drop army, plus 1 CP, and plus one artifact - whatever they do on top of that is a bonus.
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There is not - we get our 1 a turn plus sacrifice (and allherd if you go that route).
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They do not, they have 1 option now.
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I've used Palisades and Geminids pretty frequently but haven't tried our book specific spells.
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Or use the AoS app, its generally pretty up to date.
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So I don't have as much experience with Brass Despoilers but a few things I could maybe suggest or at least present a different point of view. Why bullgors in 6s? They're a large unit already and one of their main advantages over Bestigors (and they don't have many) is they have a smaller foot print which allows them to retreat into smaller spaces or snake through to specific targets. I feel like at 6 they're so large that you'll be losing attacks most of the time and you're possibly making yourself vulnerable to Battleshock where 3 are effectively immune. I prefer my bestigors in 10s - I currently run 2 units of 10, they're an effective MSU choice that hit hard. I think you'll be pleased with them in this size. Additionally the Ghorgon is fine but given that you're already outside the realm of the 1 drop army I'd consider the Chimera over it. The chimera's breath weapon is very potent and allows you an option to burn down troublesome characters early. Plus he doesn't actually lose attacks or get worse from a hit/wound perspective on his chart.
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Depending on your local play styles this can be a buff. There are enough -1s to hit where I play that I prefer the unmodified 6 since it can't be turned off.
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This is the way of the future - all books going forward will have wholly within for buffs. The design goal appears to be buffs are wholly within, debuffs are just within.
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-1 Extra Artifact -1 Extra Command Point -1 Drop Army (has the widest variety of available units) -Can contain all forms of Tzaangors in the list (only battalion with access to them)
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I've been playing with Tzaangors, a lot, lately. Running 1 unit of 20 with 2 shields and they're a workhorse - I do run a Tzaangor shaman as well (our only option for a flying hero who is also a wizard, so something I'd take regardless). With 34 dual blade attacks (counting mutants), 16 great blade, and another 2 single blade attacks (+20 beaks) they've got great offensive out put and at the cost 360 points I get 40 wounds. I've played games without them but after my recent string of games they and Enlightened on foot are a must take for me. As for their spawn pal, I just summon him in first turn (makes it far easier to make sure he keeps up). *I'd also like to note I've entirely stopped game planning around ambush - with Total Commitment out there I refuse to invest anything at all in to the concept. Even in games where its an option I don't do it because with the ability to run and charge on my largely M6 + 3 for a Bray Shaman I've got all the mobility I need.
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Still not a legal ally choice. Our only ally choice is StD.
