Turragor

While I'm kind of pissed and kind of amused that their solution to what's wrong with SCE is "just give them CoS units" ... I'm also thinking this opens up a lot of options! CoS units fit in really well. There are 2 main styles that I see - Focusing on more of what Starcast does and doubling down on weaknesses Shoring up those weaknesses (and trimming some mw scatter damage from list) If I can find any games in the current "lockdown 2: the re-lockdownening" period, I might try out some unpainted, proxy stuff. For reference (and we may get more rules previews):

Love it! If anyone new is reading this in desperation for something to do with SCE that isn't shootcast, Starcast still works - its just a few more lists are a pain in the ass than was the case end of 2019.

zut! (I'm so french)

Yes, I think starcast is nearly perfected - as good as it can be. What is this ultra sexy army? Fantastic

I would agree. On the one hand few factions can truly build a list that can take all comers. So matchups play a role. On the other hand, SC (and other factions ofc) are very weak against most of the new factions released this year IE the most popular armies in the meta, soooo...yeah. /edit at the same time ... I would rather face the gargants than 6 stonehorns

Love this, the Arkanaut company I've always had an eye on. How big was the tourney? What lists did the GA:order list meet? That said, I think a reply I gave a while back still stands, a list with a bunch of new models to paint isn't going to ignite my interest when everything (hopefully) changes soon. I think running this with 3 x 5 libs would, unfortunately, not be anywhere near as good.

I like the look of this one too

yeah my biggest piece of advice for working with starcast lists (any lists) is to change out components one at a time - rather than change a list wholesale.

It's just unfortunate that he slots so well into Starcast type lists. I don't believe he is so popular in any other SC list. It may be as strong in terms of spell denial to take Incantors to his points cost. You just will be missing out on a bit of Kroak's damage and CP. I love Incantors. If you wanted you could trial other lumineth allies - maybe not casters but their archer for instance look promising. Original Starcast works nicely too, you might incorporate more libs as above, or Prime and 2 dragons even. I find it productive to test out ideas before getting too excited or too down. The one caveatI'd share now is, given ppl expect a new SCE tome within, let's guess, 6 months, being able to improve results right now with 1 model bought and painted trumps buying and painting say 20 or 30. For example, I bought and painted 30 vulkite berserkers 3 years ago maybe and had them in a starcast ish list as the WALL OF UNSTOPPABLE MW SAVES. They were GREAT but now they're not worth anything in my lists - new Fyreslayers tome killed them as allies. I am far more comfortable for Kroak to sit on a shelf for years (I doubt I'll play seraphon - like I doubted I'd play Fyreslayers).

I say give it a whirl, I would miss the Templar (for his pile in reducing axe) in some matchups. Perhaps, though, more libs & the prime add more than you lose. There's no way to guess! Test away

He is Seraphons too afaik. It's just a strong model (and SC can ally everything).

Yep Kroak is amazing. With the amount of CP I think concussors are a good shout definitely.

You met some tough lists! And played great it seems If anything, playing SCE and dragging these results against the grain and opposite to the widely popular opinion that SCE cannot win (see stats breakdowns on other sites), is just going to lead to a surge of impressive victories next battletome... Which might lead to a host of nerfs - I hope they're more in the 40k style (v space marines) this time haha

My current preference is to ask TOs before the tourney how they want me to play these kinds of rules in my SC lists. So I save myself the bother on the day. It's usually this and Stormwinged (which I did a massive analysis of in the Starcast thread - but I never want to make a tourney opponent read it haha)

Yep, the Prime's deepstrike rules are separate from faction rules. He can be up after r3 and he can be +1 in the sky. He doesn't count as 1 of the units in the army in the sky.

I think this is a great chat to have. There was that push a while back for AR type games wasn't there? Physical card games (like Pokemon or something) that also had a coupling to a playstation or whatnot. Anyway, the models are key for me. I also like some of the other physical elements of gaming - rolling dice for instance. I put that down to the same factor (whatever it is) that makes playing chess or cards physically better than on a computer. I don't like rules referencing that much. I especially don't like the amount of rules material you have to have on the table - taking away from terrain and models. I think this is some very interesting stuff. An enterpeneurial company in the industry (with an existing model base - to avoid any kind of legal repurcussions) could (should) use this concept to build a kickstarter that would probably break some records.

I'd recommend pinning a corner of the unit with the drake with tempest axe. If it can. Then the main drake in the other corner. If suitable. 1"pile in can make this survivable

Most recent Starcast list I tested: Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals Mortal Realm: Chamon Lord Kroak (320) - Allies Drakesworn Templar (420) - Mount Trait: Storm-winged Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500) - General - Celestine Hammer - Command Trait: Staunch Defender - Artefact: Plate of Perfect Protection Lord-Castellant (120) Knight-Incantor (120) - Spell: Chain Lightning 5 x Liberators (90) - Warhammer & Shield - 1x Grandhammers 5 x Liberators (90) - Warhammer & Shield - 1x Grandhammers 5 x Liberators (90) - Warhammer & Shield - 1x Grandhammers 3 x Aetherwings (40) 3 x Aetherwings (40) Everblaze Comet (100) Balewind Vortex (40)

Ok! I played last night against Skaven (a nice list, well captained) in new Battle for the Pass. My opponent had something like: I took: I was v rusty and made a bunch of mistakes and suffered a major loss, but had fun and have a few things to think about. The good Kroak - As it was first game with Kroak I'm not sure if I saw his true potential. HOWEVER, I did have like 7 CP in round 2 which is a bit above average but not having to worry about when I wanted to use "All out attack" - for instance - was excellent. I think, with so many CP my idea of a Kroak anvils list is decent buuut I'm not sure if losing Staunch is worth it. I love and hate Staunch. You'd also lose the peppery plate of perfect perfecly perfect perfection (see below) which is another large blow. The ability to challenge in the enemy hero phase was also excellent and really kept me in the game against all the Skaven casts. With the 2x Drakes his casting is almost unchallenged. Almost. Putting mystic shield on the Templar is also lovely. Peter Perfect's Plate of Perfectly Perfect Protection - If TOs allow the new realm artefacts, take this. It is a headache for the opponent and perfect synergy on the LCoSD. It's that simple, we've nothing better to take as an artefact right now. Everblaze Comet - And I only got one cast off this game due to some poor luck Still it earned its early points I feel. It stopped a Warplighting cannon from advancing on one flank and did it's usual glut of mw. Stormwinged - I love it. Our one current tome strength is the potential to take Stormwinged x 2. With Kroak CP this and 2 drakes could be heinously nasty. The bad Mortal Wounds - ofc... my opponent had terrible luck with his warplightning cannons but all the same I had to move my LCoSD forward to challenge an objective/clear clanrats and he overcharged and put 8mw on the drake. He took 7 mw back but the damage was done. I was unaware of the Verminlord Warpseers once per battle instant d6 mw attack so in one round the Drake was out Ignax IS missed but this just changes the paradigms - the methods of playing with the LCoSD. Subconsciously - and this is why I lost - I believe I was playing like Starcast without Kroak, with Ignax, pre-covid . I know better but ofc when you're playing a game you still make some decisions based on what was good in previous games with similar lists. Liberators - Am I allowed to put them here? We all know it but still. I explained a few times to my opponent what they were like as he was making decisions "what's their bravery? What save? What kjnd of damage do they do?" I basically told him they were awful. Funnily enough, one survived against the odds and blocked up his flank for 1 extra turn but pure luck can't move them out of the bad zone. We're stuck with them though. The maybe Aetherwings - This is maybe unfair on the scroll because I used them wrong, but without raptors I do think they're not outstanding (if the opponent takes them out). Ignoring them would make them amazing. With hindsight I can also see them working very well for me in some matchups. Are they better than the other options I'd have with the 110 points (40 x 2 + 30) I have left over? That I'm not sure of. Hence "maybe" for now. Templar v Prime - This is a tough one. I rolled poorly for Rain of stars so I left the opponent with a decent amount of options which (in the double turn he got) he exploited well. The prime would have removed more support (and then admittedly died to warplightning cannons soooo ... I'm just not sure! I'd lose +1 to cast on Kroak/Incantor too. Rough Conclusion Taking nothing away from a well played list under my opponent, I think without MW he'd have trouble doing anything to my list and my challenge would have been removing his units from objectives. Which I'd not be too worried about due to how well the drakes can clear hordes. Even with Battleshock immunity I totally ended 40 clanrats in one phase with the LCoSD and some chip damage from hero phase/shooting phase mw. ... That said, he DID have mw and, though maybe above average in the potential to generate them, he didn't have the MOST in the meta. So there will be some very tough matchups for Starcast/Kroakcast. I've a bunch of other thoughts to digest but I'm happy with Kroak tbh. I don't think those 320 points are better spent in Starcast lists - right now. Mayybe The lumineth archers but I'm not sure about that. With an Incantor and Kroak you do so much good work. I am comfortable proceeding (and hopefully getting some tourney games in) with the list I took with some tweaks as my main competitive SC list.

Like the Relictor idea. In most matchups thats gonna give you something extra. I think you can fit in a Venator too ... Though they are always random as anything. I (hopefully) get to play tomorrow so, depending on how I feel - or my opponents face - I'll take the relictor variation, the 2x3 Aetherwings variation or this little idea:

I like how @PrimeElectrid applied a logical thought process to list building and I think you pose a good question in the follow up. I like how a buffed Stardrake will hold up some decent melee armies - I basically apply this logic (though right now the potential great artefact is the new ignore rend 1 realm artefact - if it is allowed by a TO) to a drake. The cost here is much more than 280 though - 420 for a templar (tempest axe stopping pileins at 1" is good) but an LCoSD ticks more survivability boxes. Though you always need to add a Castellant - so the cost IS prohibitive and for this reason once you add a drake you're back to a "drake list". I'll go back to my corner now and stop trying to make ppl play Stardrakes

Ok this is my first list to try out, should get a game Tues : Lord Kroak (320)Drakesworn Templar (420)- Tempest AxeKnight-Incantor (120)Lord-Castellant (120)Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)- Celestine Hammer5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (90)- Warhammer & Shield3 x Aetherwings (40)3 x Aetherwings (40)Everblaze Comet (100)Balewind Vortex (40)Quicksilver Swords (30)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 92 I think the Aetherwings are so cheap and fast that even with no raptors they are near auto include

Yes I think its this kind of imbalance in the realms that'll probably lead to a blanket ban of them - or at least the CA/spells. Especially with a Teleport on offer. Having said that, maybe TOs let the artefacts slide through. That'd be nice!

Yep I think that artefact is the way forward. At the same time, prep for TOs just blocking out realm rules entirely. It happens in my area a good bit

The gauntlets /hands are separate so I just magnetised those. There's also a lot. Generous kit for magnets. I've had 3 boxes built and have 6 desolator arms, 4 Fulminator arms, 2 concussors and 2 tempestors painted and magnetised all from those 3 kits.