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Problem is that extra rend end up adding around 3 damage (it will reduce variance however). If you take the 3 ardest units in the meta (phoenix guard, mortek guard and berserker) this extra 3 damage is not gonna ensure anything against those. Etheral amulet will add between 15 to 32 sustained damage potential (with RR1) to your Krusha just against rend 1 (which is the vast majority of damage output availaible to most army and more and more army have rend 2 these days) There also seem to be less and less mid-range units these day. Model are either glass canon, or almost unkilable (see the 3 exemple above). That make extra extra damage much less relevant. So for a single artefact you get to almost double his wound characteristic. Considering it's a 460 pts model, no other artefact come close in value, unindependantly of the playstyle.

I play a similar list. It's aggressive but it's not an alpha strike and not CP intensive. I suspect he commit the 6 pig and a squad or ardboys in T1, and evaluate sending the maw krusha base on his survavibility rating. @Marcoangelo33 I would still use Etheral amulet over the -3 rend. I don't think any item buff your survavibility as much as the Amulet right now, and an alive Krusha is a Krusha doing damage. The one time i used the -3 rend it was actually to counter Bonereaper, but after playing a game against them I realized amulet is just plain better, as shutting down their rend 2 mean MK should survive against Guard and attack in hero phase (where they don't get to reroll)

Unfortunatly the TO's in my area ruled it out (as we are too retarded to use terrain rules around here anyway). I checked some bigger tournament and never seen anything about it in a player pack so i'm assuming most tournament don't allow it as well... I was actually hoping for a major tournament to clarify it to use as an argument in my local scene

It also much more reliable as an opening than guessing the spell. For exemple you could end up buffing a unit with warchanter then miss your teleport wich is quite bad. The sad thing about bloodtooth tough is that GW failed to FAQ the Realmgate rule, so trait is useless. I mean it already not fantastic, but I would certainly take the extra attack on a 3+/4+ instead of 6+

Long time since I last check in and we are still on the Brutes debate? funny I think they are better now, but the old warcroll was more fun (you had fun mechanic like the hit reroll and the Boss claw + smasha shenanigan). I don't think garbage is a right word for them. For me garbage = throw away, meaning the warscroll is so vastly overcosted (that is you don't even get value of the printed warscroll stats to worth taking it) no matter the synergy. Aleguzzler is a good exemple of garbage. Brutes have a pretty average warscroll, but you should expect them to hold their point value in combat. I would however call their warscroll has plain or flat. You basically get a bunch of combat stat with nothing more save a extra hit on bigger model. Brutes biggest asset is really frontage. Their damage ratio per area is high. In fact i think the biggest problem with brutes is the role change. Before you wanted many small squad to get as many Brutes Boss as you could. Now I would rather play Brutes as bigger squad of 15-20 model, probably with the 2" reach, to maximize buff effectiveness and reduce battleshock vulnerability. That said, if you take @Brodylan list, he still took 9th place of a major event with 15 brutes in his list, so that's gotta prove something!

depend on buff on both Nagash and krusha. You need at least a +1 to hit, warchanter buff and mean'un to be around 50/50 of killing and unbuffed Nagash outright. I'm not sure what are the buff available to Nagash nowday (i know before he had access to ignore rend via a spell, and he can get rr save with Cog. also had the option for a -1 to wound via a necromancer artefact), but I guess the guy wasn't expecting him in combat if he was well screened.

They are awesome, and a stapple in any BS list (i would say 4 at minimum). It's your only source of rend 2, and run and charge is really strong (combined with the 5'' free move that mean they can often attack as soon as turn 1)

Is that all of your model to pick from? Even if you're going for Squig, I suggest you still include 20-40 stabbas. You can use them as screen or objective holder, and they do surprising damage with +2 to wound and rr1 to hit. But more importantly , it give you a target for the Loonshrine, and potentially allow you to include some fanatics.

What is the Morathi issue? I tough endless spell was one of the way to bypass the max 3 damage rule.

I would say more: It's pretty clear they just play test at all in general . Never been GW strenght.

It's now a perfectly balanced bataillon. Still pretty solid for 120 pts

Not worth it. If you need offense rend 3 is a better pick. It will also help you deal with high save non-hero stuff (mortek guard, phoenix guard ect.) and you will still schred any hero (the only exception would be against a hero with etheral amulet which is really a edge case)

well 5 brutes is better than 5 ardboys 😜 I've made a toughful analysis of unit size for Brutes in the Ironjawz thread. My conclusion is that Brutes are best used in squad of 10+ model to act as mid game hammer. In group of 5, you're better just find 20 pts for 3 gruntas. More damage on the charge, but much better move and less vulnarable to battleshock.

Sorry, but the graph is marketing scam Against 4+ save, you would get an extra 0.5 damage from the SFV... On a model already doing like 12 damages against 4+... An increase of this magnitude will doubtfuly have any effect on the game state (especially considering the game will already be 1-2 turn mature) I think Gordrack main advantage is that you get much better odds of killing Heros (especially wizard) without needing extra buff Let say you're trying to one shot Arkham against Pertiflex elite (3+ save with 6++). A regular Krusha with mean_un will average a bit above 11 damage (so a bit above 50% odd of killing him). So you would either need a WC buff , spend a CP for a +1 to hit or use an aggressive artefact/trait to be safe. Meanwhile Gordrack would average 14.5 damage by himself, without any buff (and with better consistency) Same logic would apply to Terrorgheist or Keeper let say (assuming you smash and bash the screen to by pass locus). Those might be better exemple as those army have class canon screen.

I'm pretty sure you don't get the extra move in Hero phase (unless they change the spell wording but if I remember correctly it's state next movement phase) I think the extra dice and 6 shot are probably one of his best upgrade. It's an extra 1.4 damage average, but with much reduced variance (you will constistently hit between 2 and 4 damages). I think what I would miss the more from Gordrack is the 2'' reach from Megaboss weapon

Yeah good point that the warchanter scale a bit better on him (unless attacking a character). I think I would tend to use him more in Ironjawz tough (since his command is very good, but not quite usefull with already a +1 to hit army wide), and take weird un to save some mortal from spells.

I'm wondering how you define get away here. The most important part from SFV is the extra wound. The way I see it playing Gordrack really aggresive will see him dead after 2 combat phase. The extra damage is like 3.5 after 3 iteration (and negligeable if you have a +1 to hit on regular Krusha). Personnaly I'm not finding the mortal output to be quite significant in the current meta. I do like the fact that he does always 6 shots, the extra wound and extra hitting power, but SFV between him and Regular Caabbage is irrelevant to me.

He is on the expansive side, but he can bring you some unique feature: 1. Embeded cast bonus 2. Bad moon control 3. intriguing shooting. I think it's actually worth taking him as general, and use is command to put the moon in the middle at the start of round 2 and trigger all your bonus (this is true for any strategy). He also generate an average of 1 CP per turn so he can end up paying up for himself.

I understand. Of course it really depend on your meta. Personnaly i don't value Ironclad too much. Rend 2 is still gonna shred you, and a lot of current top army (Bone reaper, Cities, Skaven, Fyreslayer) can saturate rend 2+ damage. Saturation of mortal wound is quite less frequent (on top of my head there is Terrorgheist and Berserker with polearm). Part of those MW can also be mitigated with Weird'un and/or good placement (as a lot of MW happen in the hero phase).So bottom line Ironclad function as the ironsunz armour (unfortunatly both are much worse than etheral amulet) and I find ignax scale to be somewhat overkill. But more important, in you current list you actually lose the trait all together by making Gordrack the general which is not a great idea. As i said Brutish cunning is the most important trait in Big Waaagh (especially with 2 maw krusha as you want at least 1 of them to attack every hero phase). So if you go big waaagh, i would definitly go with Krusha 1 (general): Brutish Cunning + Etheral amulet , and wathever fit your play style on Krusha 2

Won the only game I played on duality of death. I took first turn to sit on objective. Pig took Arkham and holded Guard on his turn. His Kavalos on the right killed 7 ardboys, and I won turn 2 so I was able to save them and score a second time. Guard engage Krusha (screened by 5 brutes who died to catapult after I failed all 3 save ...), but he could not kill it thanks to etheral amulet (even after winning R3 priority). I was probably rolling above average in that game tough. However my army was subobtimal ( i was trying double cast with wrath of gork with Ironjawz instead of big waaagh, that was awful in the end). Still, my conclusion is your strategy is to kill what can die (avoid Mortek guard especially block of 40), and play the objective. I also think Etheral amulet is a must in the matchup (acutally i think it's currently the most important item in the meta) as rend 2 is gonna shred a mawkrusha without it. OBR look like a good army, but i think it's easier to handle than Fyreslayer. They do have some flaw (like they can't use generic CP to reroll charge let say). They are an elite army, once you start killing model they can start to struggle quickly on board coverage. Master of the weird look a bit subotimal in Big waagh... a mere +1 to cast compare to gain Mighty destroyer seem odd. At the moment I consider Brutish cunning to be auto pick in Big waagh (unless there is a variant mainly with BS). That assuming you can keep 40 orruck in a 18'' radius. In a 2 krusha list i doubt this will be possible every scenario. Leave you with a 50/50 of missing of getting the 6++ (assuming you don't use the cast bonus). Which can be fine, but if you plan to go aggressive in t1 most of the game i doubt this is as good as Ironsunz buff. You seem to really like the Wurgog, i must admit i've hard time fitting it in Ironjawz - heavy list (unless I drop the Krusha). Sure his spell is good at horde control, but by the time you get to trigger it, most model would already got eated by the Krusha? He seem better to me in those ardboys flood army.

I agree with your thinking. It's rare to get get the 6++ in round 1, and the +1 to wound would usually happen in round 3 (considering a 2 krusha build). You would get much more value from a -1 to hit in first round. I also agree with your reasoning on being flexible on mighty destroyer (something you loose going big waaagh). If you engage in round 1 and the Krusha's survive until your next hero phase, you'll likely win the game right there. About CP I would say you need between 4 and 6 CP in the first 2 round (0-2 for MD in turn 1, 2 for potential MD in turn 2, 1-2 spare for charge reroll/battleshock). With Ironsunz + ironfist you would get 4, so i think your should probably keep 50 pts to buy one. Getting triumph would also be important i would bet at least 20pts for it, 30 if you can, as you'll benefit from every roll save maybe a 4.

@Planar i think 5 character is a lot in double krusha list. So it's a tough call between 2 chanter and wizard. Personnally i would keep 2 chanter and drop the wizard all together. Loosing mystic shield is a bit sad, but you can always spend a CP to rr1 when it matter. I think I would also go for Ironsunz. I'm honestly not seeing the value of Ironclad that much. Witch Maw Krusha likely to engage in turn 1 the -1 to hit look huge. The command also ensure that the Krushas are not ignored.

Not it specify Bonesplitterz

I think it doesn't matter that much. With Hacka you all brutes can attack with a 7 brutes frontage. So let say say you have 7 dual weild + 3 hacka, you loose 5 brutes so 15 attack, but you get 7 more from dual weild, loosing a net 8 attack. So basicaly you would need to front with 9 brutes to have the same output. But once you start loosing 3+ brutes however dual weild is just strictly better. I think Hacka really start to pay at 20. As a benchmark, 15 ardboys with warchanter is 28.5 dmg, 10 brutes is 35. With +1 to hit, Brutes will jump to 45 dmg, so yes quite more than ardboys. However to assess the value of Brutes over ardboys it's more a meta thing. Right now top army include some 4 wound model but not in large amount. So i'm not sure i would factor this to much in my choice, but it's not a bad bonus to get and it will definitly trigger some time (will it matter is another story, as Ironjawz tend to overkill glass canon stuff anyway)

I play big waaagh and would never use Gordrakk. Brutish cunning is essential in BW. Playing Gordrackk would mean i would need to use a Footboss or extra krusha wich would start to seriously hinder model count. Brutes are definitely in a tough spot right now. 5 brutes are inferior to ardboys for mid game teleport (as they lack the +2 charge), and gruntas have similar output on the charge, but with better move. To find the right place of Brutes, we need to assess their strenght: 1. Highest damage per point. (between 30 and 70% more damage than ardboys if you manage to get +1 to hit) 2. Highest damage per area. 10 brutes take around 33% less space than 15 ardboys (without factoring Gore hacka), wich is quite significant. 3. 2'' reach: Gruntas and krusha have access to this as well, but brutes is our only infantry that get this. So factoring all this, for me brutes roles is quite clear, it's mid game Hammer. Use them in squad of 10+, or like Malaktree suggest spam them in a Brute fist. A squad of 15-20 brutes followed by a warchanter should win most combat. Playing a bigger squad also ensure you have enough left for counterattack, even against big hitter. It's worth to note that ardboys scale better with the warchanter buff than Brutes with the warchanter buff, so if you plan to use warchanter on Brutes you might want to remove Gore hacka first. I think 15 is a nice number. It make you a nice blok for 420 pts. It fall right on the spot between 20 and 25 ardboys, and I think that were you would get the most value from them, as at this number the advantages of footprint/reach become quite significant. You'll also benefit for a +1 bravery for the first 15 damages, so you don't need to wory too much about battleshock for first few kill from magic / shooting. Still, they are flat. One thing I would at least have liked is keeping the RR1 from Megaboss (that would make both him and the brutes better, there was no real logic to remove that ability) and obviously the rend 2 on brutes boss would also have been nice.