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All valid points. However IMHO bonegrinz is just inferior. it give you back the old arrowboys shooting but withouth any real buff. All ability are now exclusivly in melee (exploding 6, +1 to hit spell, +1 to wound). 10 charging boar in Icebone will do something like 20 damage and 6 mortal (and some rend 2 if you get the spell). In contrast 30 arrowboys is 22.5 damage flat in shoot (with a +1 to hit). If you opponent tie them with any 4+ save unit, he can hold them for a while with all out defense. The fact that the other two clans give you a buff army wide make them much better. Yeah 2 x 20 it might be better. problem I had was mostly battleshock (with a block of 30 you can just inspire presence them and not bother too much with the 10 - squad). But anyway battleshock is a huge problem for BS.

So after some tought, i figured out competitive list are either Icebone or Drakfoot cause your power cascade to the whole army. Bonegrinz doesnt seem to make the cut. I also seem to want to include Rogue Idol in any list right now. My icebone would maybe look like this: You could cut a hero to be 1 drop, but i like the cheap big bost for the extra 3'' move. For Drakfoot it would look more like this: So pretty similar overall. Bit more aggressive (even 10 morboys can hit quite hard). So far i didn't find any place for Arrowboys. 20 arrowboyz is only 10 damage without Bonegrinz (assuming +1 to hit) and a disapointing 3 damage in opponents turn... and with base 5+ they're even bad at snipping heroes...

Long time away, went trough the battletome in the last couple day. Ironjawz are obviously very good. Bonesplitterz doesnt seem really. I'm trying to figure out what king of mix could be competive but i've had severall issue with list building - Battleline limitation: Only Orruk are battleline for every faction and they aren't a great unit. I guess a block of 30 with spear and some save / hit buff is a good tarpit with decent hitting power. But with no rend it will take time to chew through high save. - Arrowboys are tough to fit. You can only play a block of 30 in bonegrinz, and with 5+ base to hit and nothing else than the command to boost to hit, they have super weak unleash hell. Shooting is always cool but they are tough to fit. - Morboys aren't bad. Battleline in darkfoot and hit harder than base orruk for cheaper point. 1'' range suck a bit but at least you get 4 attack per model on the charge. Darkfoot ability is obviously still a good choice as most army have some ward save. - Boarboys is probably the most evident choice (As pointed by @PlasticCraic). Spaming them in icebone will give you a decent output of MW, they have good move. The spell that buff them is also good. A 10 or 15 model unit with buff is a good hammer and and well timed waaagh can make them stick on the board) - Battalion: That is were it get weird. I'm sure what's the good approach for the army. Trait and artefact basicly suck so i'm not sure you want extra. I guess you could go 1 drop with 3 heros, 5 units and a monster like good old idol of gork (not clear it's legal profile is not in the book?) It's not clear to me if you want to choose first turn. Free move is usually better when you go first, but the new waaagh will shut down alpha strike army really well so you could be on the draw with most of your army at the end of round 1. So yeah tough time for the bonesplitterz! Edit: just realized that Waaagh is just combat phase. meh

I think graywater analysis is correct. I would add that bonesplitters is probably better that it seem because it's not much played.

Yeah i'm usually positive but I don't see them being played in match play. They don't fill any roll, you'll take 5 ardboys over any time.

I did run Bloodtooth before GHB20 as my casual list. I don't think i lost a game with it, but I did never tried it in tournament. However my list took 2 major hit with GHB20: loss of etheral amulet and cost increase for ardboys, meaning it now clock at 1990 instead 1970 and i would not get triumph in a lot of game, so I didn't really reworked it as of now and went for a different list. I still like the artefact a lot since you can build you're opening strategy around it (like buff 15-20 ardboys and teleport them)

Even if the increase is unjustified, I find it pretty much irrelevant. Almost all list will still take 1 shaman for the hand of gork. Most troops configuration already hit between 1940 and 2000 already, so it's just a matter of an additionnal 10 points on triumph. 1 configuration that is impacted is for exemple MK, 2 WC, Shaman, 30 ardboys, 6 gore gruntas, 5 brutes wich come a 2010 pts. But in that case the 10 point increase on Ardboys is already much more relevant. I feel that the cost increase on Ardboys is the harshest thing we got. At 100 pts for 5 Arboys are now mediocre for their cost, so you want to limit their number in favor for more brutes. However Brutes have the battleshock issue and lack the +2 charge. So now you're confronted with the tough choice of screening with Ardboys (expensive) or Brutes (not an effective screen). Before points update I usually played 20-25 ardboys and 5-10 brutes. This week-end I played 15 ardboys and 15 brutes. Even if it's the same number of model, i was often struggling with deployment (before it was pretty easy, you would use ardboys to screen and counter punch with brutes but now I kinda wanted to protect my ardboys until late game for teleport).

@Boggler look like you were playing at the Grand Clash as well Nice write up! As you said 1 warchanter is too short, always bring (at least?) 2 ;). I don't thing big waaagh is strinctly better than Ironsunz, both play a bit differently. Ironsunz have the option to play more aggressive, better protection against alpha strike and more reliable mighty destroyer. Big waaagh will tend to win attrition war thanks to the +1/+1 mid to late game. Personnaly what I don't like in the big waaagh is the lock on brutish cunning and Ironfist.

Big Waaagh can compete with the best magic army. Especially if you include Rogue Idol. +1-2 cast by spending WP +1 cast from Rogue Idol +1 cast from Wardock +1 cast from Artefact Reroll failed cast (Weirnob only) That's a potential +5 to cast, even seraphon will have hard time dispelling it. Of course question still to answer is what you do with the magic.

Depending on your play style, you could consider using the trait that give 2 cast on the shaman (and he know an extra spell) so you can still use realm spell to a certain extent, or cast mystic shield in addition to hand of gork (and have a nice back up spell). I've a tournament as well this weekend, i'm running a similar set up

@Scurvydog I think Ironsunz is indeed the no brainer choice for Ironjawz at the moment. I think your list is lacking bodies tough. You'll be farming CP but i'm not sure you'll be able to use them that much. I would cut the fungoid and the CP for 5 extra brutes at least. This will put you at 1970 pts leaving a i probability of getting triumph. I would also split the ardboys in a squad of 10 and 5. I think maxing the number of Ironfist units is really important to get enough board coverage. Other than Ironsunz the other option I like is to go for the Ironclad + ignore rend 1 Krusha. Some army will have no answer to him, while the Ironsunz krusha can easily get saturate by rend 0 attack.

Just in case you were not aware, Ironskullz can't go in the bataillion, so it's an extra drop. However they might still worth it because they are 80 vs 100 pts for almost the same profile (they do loose bravery and charge bonus tough so they are more suited for holding an objective)

Haha nice I like it (when you have 80 painted Ardboys) 😄 I was wondering if 2 drop is really necessery vs like 3 for instance? I think right now good list are either 1 drop (KO, Tzeentch) or 4+ but i could be wrong!

They can't use both

I suspect Bloodtooth is probably better in a Krushaless list where losing the trait have much less impact

Point change are in the FAQ Footboss 140 Maniak Weirnob 140 Ardboys 100 Brutes 130 Weirnob Shaman 120

I like the Shysh artefact (reroll save of 1) on Maw Krusha with Ironclad. Combined with Weird'un and army withouth much rend 2 will have hard time passing thru him That is true, however HoG is so powerfull that just the menace of it is sometime enough to make your opponent play around it. Even if it just succeed once per game it can be enough to secure a win. It's mainly Seraphon and Lumineth that will likely negate it all game long. It indeed it's give an argument toward Bloodtooth, as you can plan you game around it. Also at 140 pts vs 120 pts Footboss is now a much better deal than before compare to a Weirnob (more durable and fight better)

They are probably planning to release those in a White dwarf soon (like those ironsunz bataillion from ironjawz)

at 140 pts weirnob is really expensive especially with Wardock is at only 80 pts. It seem they went for massive cost increase for Mage in general. Maybe they found mage where favoured over melee heroes and wanted to shuffle that a bit...

Do you have the artifact list yet? From what i understand, no more Etheral amulet. This will increase greatly the value of Ironclad and Ironsunz artefact (ironclad + daubing of mork is gonna become a nice set up) . Edit: After going thru the book, i've analysis the different option for Maw Krusha. Without Etheral Amulet / Ignax Scale, it's hard to have a well defended Krusha like before. The best defensive set up would be Ironclad + Daubing of Mork, or Ironsunz (armor + -1 to hit in R1). Not too shaby but rend 2 is gonna be a problem for sure (Mortek Guard, Fyreslayer, Cities). That could tips the scale toward the uber offensive krusha (Live to fight / Destroyer / Metal rippa claw / Mean'un) or even Gordrak (already an offensive built with much better command ability)

It's quite a big change between Ardboys and brutes. 10 brutes now come 40 pts cheaper than 15 ardboys. I would have like a small drop on Gordrak. I don't really understand the increase on weirnob.

Tried this list yesterday at a local, tought i would share the result. Went 2-1 , and my lost was i got stalled. I was not disapointed with the list. Game 1 was on focal point against Ogor (2 Frostloard, and a bunch of Leadbelcher in unit or 2 and some wolfve). Game was super close. His list was actually quite interesting, with this spam of 2 man units you have to split attack, and he would maximize the amount of mortal from the charge. I let him go fisrt, but I could not win priority on R2 or 3 to secure the game. I finally managed to take priority in R4 to clean the rest of his model and grind back some point, but he won back R5 and was able to score 3 more. I ended up scoring 6 in my last turn and won by 1 points. Game 2 was agaisnt Living cities deep strike (Frost phoenix, 30 pheonix guard, 30 iron drake, and some chaff) on shifting objective. Again I let him go first and take the hit. Fortunatly, he had bellow average roll and manage to kill only 2 pig (i had the reroll save triumph). Then on my turn I manage to teleport 10 ardboys in the back row and kill his sorceress. I also kill the frost phoenix, but i missed the long charge on the left objective and fall behind on point. On his turn his main pack of irondrake is too far to do something. He charge whith pheonix guard, kill some Brutes but I kill 12 in reatiliation. On my turn I finish off the guard and kill some chaff to take back 2 objectives. At this point I've basically secured the game, but since there is 13 minutes left we cannot start another round and loose because i'm behind in point... Game 3 was against Nighthaunt (don't remember the exact list cause i don't know the army really well but there was a bunch of ghost) on Starstrike. Round 1 he turtled and i moved just 6 inch from middle to cover landing zone. Round 2 start seeing some action as he deepstrike some ghost to score the middle objective. On my turn i grab it back with 10 ardboys. Then round 3 he win priority and deepstrike all his army, scoring 2 objective. However i was able to trigger the ardfist and bring them back to claim back objectives in my territories. At this point i've a slight upper hand, but it's still a close game because he can bring back model. However i win turn 4 priority and he concede. Tought on da Choppa: Checked out: Not the most fantastic trait, but not garbage either. Rabbed rouser: Super good. I would use it almost every turn. Even if it's just on an extra units, it's still by far our best buff. Vandal horde: Again, really solid ability. Suddenly ardboys can deep strike at +3 charge + reroll. In big waaagh and other IJ list i find it hard sometime to have hero nearby and you roll a ****** charge. You can even deep strike with Brutes and with Ironfist, and get 4 chances to get your 9'' charge which is almost garantee. Other than that, the 2 batallion worked well. It sure is a lot of point on non-troops but by cutting the mawkrusha it's still give you a lot of body, and keep your drop on the low side. A pure ardfist could be better, but for me it's out of scope as i don't have 80 ardboys.

hey @PlasticCraic ever played against Bonereaper with bonesplitterz? Never had a chance to test the matchup but I susptect it's pretty bad.

I'm not arguing about save reroll. On Mortek Guard you'll effectivly get close to 5 extra kill (best case scenario) @Marcoangelo33 I get your point, however you must be playing in a strange meta to not encounter the 3 units mention above. It's also arguably the 3 toughest matchup for Ironjawz (did not had a chance to play against new Tzench tough but from what I heard it's pretty bad). Of course if you like the Klaw because you had good feeling I can't really argue with that, but I can still explain the math: I'll stay with the premise of a +1 to hit +1 damage Krusha to make it more simple, and we will evaluate the damage gain in some scenario: First let's check the net damage gain against those specific units: Pheonix guard / Hearthgard with +1 save 13.33333333 4.444444444 13.33333333 6.666666667 2.222222222 Mortek Guard 13.33333333 2.777777778 13.33333333 7.716049383 4.938271605 As we all agree, the best gain is really against high rerollable save. However the point is really about using the Command ability and trigger smash and bash right? So let's check some more generic scenario, and take into consideration the full damage from the Cabbage on the charge: opposing save (no reroll) 3+ 4+ 5+ shoot 2 1 1.333333333 1.666666667 charge 2.66 2.66 2.66 2.66 megaboss 13.33333333 6.666666667 8.888888889 11.11111111 mount 13.33333333 8.888888889 11.11111111 13.33333333 total damage 19.21555556 23.99333333 28.77111111 3+ 4+ 5+ shoot 2 1 1.333333333 1.666666667 charge 2.66 2.66 2.66 2.66 megaboss 13.33333333 11.11111111 13.33333333 13.33333333 mount 13.33333333 8.888888889 11.11111111 13.33333333 total damage 23.66 28.43777778 30.99333333 net gain 4.444444444 4.444444444 2.222222222 As Units will usually have 10-20-30-40 wound, i see two tipping point that would favor the -3 rend: a 20 wound units at 3+ and (oddly) a 30 wound units at 5+. This is where the extra rend would push you above average of one shooting the units (thus triggering smash and bash and the potential CP). On the top of my head, that's pretty rare, but more importantly they would also die from any other units (pig / ardboys) charging them with the same buff. There is also some army with access to ignore rend (Idoneth, nigthhaunt) not to mention that Etheral amulet is a very popular artefact wich would negate the extra rend.

Yes and no. If assume a +1 to hit and a warchanter buff, we are talking about 5 extra kill against MG Currently Mortek is mostly the only units against wich is it relevant. But even there we are talking about less than 4 extra kill. Then the rest of them is gonna is gonna shred the cabbage with rend 2... Of course without realm artefact, or with a 2nd cabbage, it can be a good pick.