PlasticCraic

I think our messages overlapped there Davros! Must have been typing at the same time. I'm really not keen on the FL on TT personally, but I do agree that the Huskard on Stonehorn is viable. I'm a great believer that the Stonehorn itself does most of the damage anyway (hence why I like the Beastriders)...being able to take an artefact, he's pretty solid at 360 points. And like you said the combo with the MF is useful (I quite like Mournfang, although I think I'm in a minority there!).

I like the SH Beastriders, they are pretty solid at 320 imo. Most people would run a Frostlord on Stonehorn and a Huskard on Thundertusk (or 2, or 3) so it's not the loadout that most people consider optimal. You don't really want a Thundertusk in melee because its profile degrades so quickly. So the combat hero on what is essentially an artillery piece is a bit of a curate's egg without a clear role. 420 points is ridiculous and I would not consider this piece viable at all. The main use of a Huskard on Stonehorn would be for the Eurlbad requirement. I would say that he is usable at 360 points, if not optimal. Would it really be that hard to switch the heroes around? At a push you could just swap the heroes' hands over. The one with the big spear is the Frostlord, and the one with the Vulture is the Huskard, and I can't really see anyone questioning that. You actually have the building blocks for an Olwyr Alfrostun, which has decent batallion benefits. The problem being that once you have included the minimum requirements (including the Frostlord on Thundertusk tax), you have virtually no bodies on the board, not enough heroes to use all the artefacts you have paid for, no healing on the Thundertusks and nothing useful to spend all those command points on. Personally I'd be buying one of these and carrying out some surgery! https://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Citadel-Saw-2017-Non-Sale (You could also take a Fungoid Shammy instead of the Sabres, although that makes you 2 drops).

Yeah I agree with @amysrevenge...they are just going through every GA and mentioning their relationship with dragons, then at the end culminating in "Look, you can buy some dragons". Just a bit of fun and an advertising piece really. In that context would be weird if they didn't mention that our main interaction with Dragons is killing them - I don't think there's anything more than that going on really.

Great thinking @Malakree The only thing where it could get a bit technical is if you're doing it in their turn, in terms of who has precedence. If you're doing it at the end of their charge phase for example you'll be fine, because they don't have anything that could trigger at the same time (and therefore trump). However if Nighthaunt charge you, they attack immediately so they would jump the gun on you...even a Destructive Bulk which just happens "after you complete a charge move" would probably be simultaneous (since you have no timing within the phase to anchor to), and therefore the players whose turn it is takes precedence?

That's right, the Brooch is key. Also @Malakree is an advocate of the Prophet of the Waaagh with the Brooch... So you're likely to get a couple of 6s with the rerolls. Therefore you're probably averaging at least 7 extra attacks, and 9 won't be that unusual.

WOW that's a big question. I hate cop-out answers but you really need to play a lot games and build up experience to judge every situation. Although with Bloodtoofs specifically...you will usually go first. In general, you want to go first if you can reach them and deal devastating damage turn 1. You also want to go first if they can reach you turn 1 (including deep striking / magic / shooting) because you probably don't have much in the way of screening. You also want to go first if they have a lot of defensive buffs (including battleshock protection) - to hit them before they get it off. You also want to go first in Places of Power style scenarios where they have unkillable heroes that you won't be able to shift. If they can't really hurt you (footslogging army) - you might let them go first and hope for the double. But more often with Bloodtoofs you are looking for the shock and awe - so you'll go first.

Excellent batrep @James S, sounds like you are getting a lot out of your games at the moment even if it is heavy going! I think this is a great illustration of how we suffer from lack of batallions. Never decide who goes first with a foot slogging army -> do precious little Turn 1 -> get double turned in a crucial early turn It's that crushing spiral we are all too familiar with! The BOBO pack which was a roll off for first turn (+1 for whoever finished deploying first) was maybe a bit fairer on armies that haven't been blessed with much in the way of tech? Would allied Stonehorn Beastriders help for first turn shock value if you get put in? I guess it's only going to get you so far...pretty easy to screen against. What's next for this list?

@Killamike Gotcha, well done on the win. 24 players on the nose...I reckon that'll put you top of the tree when Clint updates the rankings? How did you find the Rogue Idol? I was actually looking at lists with him over the weekend (just finished painting him) but every time, I kept coming back to just wanting more Big Stabbas instead!

@Killamike congrats on the win! You're not talking about Brizvegas Open by any chance?

Yeah Seraphon is really strong right now. Between their extensive summoning, amazing allegiance abilities, redeploy shenanigans, barrage of useful battalions which gives them access to multiple artefacts and command points, and huge army range that somehow avoided being split up when AOS started out…they have all the tools for success that we conspicuously lack. Just a thought, but could dropping one unit of Ironguts and putting in two more units of Grots help with board control? Especially if you can use the command abilities for the 6” run to help you spread out. And allies can help a little bit with speed (run + charge on Stonehorn Beastriders for example, or maybe Mournfang)…likewise Cogs? Although it does sound like you will be badly up against it in this matchup regardless. FWIW my personal belief is that the FAQ they brought out last year was a mistake, where they said a redeploy out of combat does not count as retreating. They took something that was already an incredibly powerful toolkit, and just made it no-brainer easy mode.

@Skabnoze good shout. I also like that your mind went straight to gaming the system to fit 7 Heroes in! Kunnin'

Awesome ain't it! Great news. What Command Trait do you like on the Hag?

Unfortunately she can't be your General, because she doesn't have the Leader Battlefield Role.

So there are two ways: 1) Allies. In a 2000 point Matched Play game, you can have up to 400 points of BCR in an Gutbusters army, or vice versa. You also need to keep a ratio of 3:1 of your army units to allied units. Popular choices are Butchers and Grots as Allies for BCR. And Mournfang and Stonehorn Beastriders as Allies for Gutbusters. In both cases you're getting Ogors keyword synergy from the Butchers. 2) GA Destruction. You would need to fill all your Battleline with Ogors (since they are GA Battleline). Something like 12 Ogors, 3 Ogors, 3 Ogors for example. Then go for your life.

That's an excellent summary @Malakree, much appreciated. I guess Khorne with their auto unbind artefact are another one to watch out for. Do Seraphon need LOS for their auto unbind? The threat of On Da Rampage was the piece I was missing, it makes a lot more sense when you throw that into the equation. Also - since we're in Hysh, and with 2 Batallions we have artefacts for days - the Luminary Rod could be worthy of consideration? It could further help with creating holes, especially if there are two thin lines?

Yeah I think we're talking more in the context of a Bloodtoofs here. The Gorefist is also of great interest - but the Bloodtoofs is a one-drop which is pretty big. On average you'll get 1x Hero Phase move (which Cogs would also boost, since it's not phase-specific?), plus the Batallion move on your Battleline. Thinking about the Arboyz for example - and assuming you don't get a 4+ / 6+ IJ move on them (because you give it to your Krusha / Pigstar). On average you have a 3.5" Batallion move + 6" move (with Cogs) is 9.5" forward. They are +6" on the charge but the harder part is getting them into 12" to be able to attempt it. The 9.5" gets you just past the centre of the board in most missions. So if your opponent sets up just a few inches back, you are either relying on getting a big Batallion move, or using your (likely) only Hero Phase move on them. Brutes you can basically forget about now that the Realmgate has been nerfed? Unless you use your 1 Hero Phase move on them, which could be worthy of consideration? You could of course run MSU and then give yourself a few chances of getting a good Batallion move on 1 of the units. Basically in my head I keep coming back to multiples of the GGs, but there are a few moving parts here so I am keen to pick the brain of @Malakree because he's seen this in action. I love the idea of being able to burst through a small gap at +6" to the charge with the Drummer, just wondering how you engineer that in practice without giving up your IJ move - or maybe you do use it on them?

I like that @Malakree, doing damage outside of the combat phase can be huge, and this is a perfect example. Do you reckon you could do a diagramm (or if not maybe just talk through) how you are forcing the holes where you want them? In my simple mind, the opponent is always removing his Destructive Bulk casualties so as to leave an obstacle in front of your not-Maw Krusha. How many units are you actually getting into charge range Turn 1?

Love it! And that's a really good point on the Prophet, I hadn't thought of that. Question on the Brutes, what's your delivery mechanism? Are you giving them the 4+ (6+) Hero Phase move if you get it?

I wouldn't disagree mate, it's getting a bit disjointed. It's almost like they need a hard reset, maybe even move to a new edition...oh wait.

Also this one is from the GH 2018 Errata, seems to be saying the FAQ you quoted is only for armies with Allegiance stuff? So Leadbelchers would be ok based on that? Page 62 – Pitched Battle Profile, Introduction Add the following section: ‘ARMIES WITHOUT ALLEGIANCE ABILITIES If a faction army does not have a set of allegiance abilities, then you can use its Grand Alliance allegiance abilities instead. For example, if you had an Eshin army you could use the Grand Alliance Chaos allegiance abilities, and if you had an Order Draconis army you could use the Grand Alliance Order allegiance abilities. Note that if allegiance abilities exist for a faction army, you must use them.

@Davros I disagree, it's potentially a big change. You can now lock people in place by putting 2+ models in base to base - so it's almost back to how it was in 1.0, where you could lock people in position. Difference being you now need 2 models instead of 1 to do so. Before this FAQ (but after 2.0 dropped) a lot of people were playing that you couldn't be locked in place at all, because you could end the same distance (0.0") away from any of the models you were in contact with - as they were all joint closest.

@Malakree glad to hear it works so well! About time we had something a bit bent! Can I ask what your opponents were? Was there any "unkillable" stuff you went up against (2+ RR1s), and if so how did that go? I guess because you went first, most stuff wouldn't have the buffs off, which helps a lot! Would you still bounce off a Staunch SC army?

We've just recorded a YouTube video on this subject, and I was coming at it from a Destruction / BCR viewpoint throughout. You might find it interesting: https://youtu.be/lPIoc1rJneU There's quite a few that are awesome on Mr Frosty!

I like it, however there is no Battleline ? Something like this maybe? You could make them pretty mobile with the Destruction move + Cogs + Run & Charge. Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 133

Yeah they can be a good can opener, and they can kill the things Brutes can't. But they are probably a bit overcosted unfortunately - my great hope for Bonesplitterz was that they would come down in points this year. One way you could maybe make them work for you is to take a unit of 4 plus a Warboss (340 points of Allies) - benefitting from the Waagh! and Banner along with the rest of your army, and each extra attack on them is very valuable. In that context the main problem I would have with them is how easy they are to shoot off (no save vs Judicators for example). They are just a little too expensive to be viable in my opinion, since you kind of need to spam them. In a mixed Destro army I think there could be a useful Teef Rukk build, as something very modular that gets you the extra artefact and CP. Could benefit from the Destro Hero Phase Charge (since they could then pile in with their Batallion bonus), and would be a great recipient of the Gordrakk Waaagh.