JerekKruger

April 22

My guess for BoC is an O&G style release i.e. no new plastics at all, a couple of new resin characters (one named, one generic). I get the distinct impression GW have labeled them as an unpopular faction (why else would AoS willingly drop them from their range rather than keeping them as a dual system faction like S2D is in all but name). Hopefully I'm wrong though.

If I were being more optimistic, I could see GW releasing a plastic Tuskgor/Razorgor Chariot kit that can also construct a character on foot and, if you decide to go with Tuskgors, can be used to assemble Razorgors as a standalone unit. That replaces an old resin kit, gives official support to one that is currently unsupported, and gets rid of the awful Razorgor mini, plus gives an extra character option.

I didn't we'll get a plastic unit, but if I'm wish listing I'll say that if like to see Centigors get plastic sculpts (also Gors, but that ain't going to happen).

As for WoC, I think they're decently likely to get some plastic releases because I think they're viewed as a fairly popular faction (of the "evil" factions perhaps the most popular). I don't think we'll see Asavar Kul, I think he'll come later in a campaign book. I also doubt they'll recreate in plastic anything which has an AoS counterpart (Lord on Daemonic Mount for example), though I could see resin versions that fit TOW bases better.

For plastic, I think a paired character kit with a Chaos Steeds and the ability to build a battle standard seems likely (hopefully a Champion and Wizard, both who can either ride the Steed or be on foot, and the Champion can be given a banner) as that covers an obvious gap in the range. We'll get at least one named character (probably in resin), but I could see the Arcane Journal containing five (one for each mark) with more than one getting a mini at this stage.

I could see a Chaos Dragon kit: it's be a popular enough lot amongst collectors that it could justify the cost.

I kinda doubt we'll get any plastic unit kits though. Chaos is very well served by AoS and whilst officially the two shall never meet, I think there's a tacit understanding that people will but AoS stuff to use in their armies anyway. Maybe Forsaken will be given a facelift?

Of course they might introduce entirely new stuff in the Arcane Journal, and whilst so far they've expect that to be handled with conversions, they might buck that trend and release a kit. I think WoC are far more likely to get a plastic unit kit than BoC.

Of course this is all speculation. I think all that we can fairly safely say is we'll get resin characters for both 😄

April 22

7 hours ago, ArcLight said:

On the topic of the Ardboyz, when will we actually find out whether they've changed the contents of issue 73 to be only 5 boyz or if it will still be 10 (new) Ardboyz in there?

It'll go up for preorder on Forbidden Planet in a few weeks I assume, but we're still reliant on the big leak from a while ago to know what to expect from the issues, right? So when would we actually get confirmation of the contents?

Looking at the sprues, it seems unlikely it'll be changed to 5 as they don't really divide up that way. The way Hachette has usually dealt with things like this in the past is to split them across two magazines, but that would require bumping something else in the plan which, at this point, seems unlikely? After all, they'll likely have written and printed the magazine content already (barring Ardboyz changes, though even there they might have been given advanced warning of the change by GW).

April 21

Empire alone makes sense if there still going to emphasize the civil war: could be a larger release if characters representing various claimants of the throne (hopefully with some additional plastic kits too).

April 20

13 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

I am all out of likes, but this looks very good! Much better than the official cavalry priest mini!

Agreed.

I've got to say one if the things that I like so much about TOW is how much it's encouraging converting. Obviously there's nothing stopping you doing so in AoS, but there's just much less need since there are fewer options and most minis are excellent. But I'm TOW there are far more options, sometimes official kits are... not great, and most importantly you can actually invest yourself in your characters without them being shot off the table in turn one of every game, so individualizing them feels more rewarding.

April 20

As much as it pains me to do so, I've ended up ordering TOW stuff direct from GW. It's the only way to be somewhat confident my other will actually be fulfilled.

If much rather order from an FLGS, but I want to know I'll actually get what I ordered in a reasonable time too so...

April 19

3 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Comparing with units from other factions is a very bad idea.

I think that's an exaggeration. You need to be careful when doing it yes, but I think it can be useful.

3 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Black Orcs and Bestigors are Special units, Chaos Warriors are Core. Black Orcs have severe limitations as to how many you can take (you must take 1 Black Orc character to fit 1 unit of Black Orcs), meaning you can't have easily several units of Black Orcs because they have to pay a character tax.

Special units are meant to be rarer, but I don't think that means they are meant to be better value points wise. Generally they bring something a bit more interesting to the table over Core units, which in the case of Black Orcs is definitely the case (Quell Animosity is amazing).

Character tax is only really a tax if you don't want the character is your army. Black Orcs don't really fall into that category, they are excellent. Other than being short on points, I can't see a situation where you'd rather take a ordinary Orc War/Big-boss over a Black Orc one.

Personally I think fitting two units of Black Orcs into an army is very doable, unless you are specifically going for a theme where Black of Characters aren't welcome.

3 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Dwarves are an all-heavy infantry list, they don't have cavalry or beasts and lack severely in mobility. M3 is a bigger deal than you think, low initiative means they can't really rely on killing enemies before they strike.

All good points (other than M 3: I definitely think it's a very big deal, just as I think Bestigors getting M 5 is a huge bonus).

3 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Chaos Warriors have halberds for that.

Meh. Paying points for +1 Strength and Armour Bane (1), but losing the ability to use a Shield whilst doing so doesn't seem worth it.

Plus let's be honest, even with their stats, 7 attacks (assuming a front row of 6 and a champ) at WS 5, S 5, AP -1 and Armour Bane (1) is not going to do that much. Expected damage of 3 and a bit assuming hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s and the enemy having a 5+ save (if the enemy has T 4 or a better save that rapidly diminishes). You really need volume of attacks to make doing damage a viable way of winning combat.

3 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

I think Chaos Warriors are fine as they are. They are meant to fill the core percentage, so of course they're not the most interesting choice of their list. That's why other units you're citing in different lists aren't core. While full plate armor is surely nice, having a save of 4+ with shields isn't to be laughed at in this game, since save modifiers are way rarer than in Battle.

I guess. They just don't feel like a unit I'd want to take in their current form. If I want less elite infantry than Chosen I think I'd go for Marauders over Chaos Warriors, and then both Marauder Horsemen and Warhounds are more appealing from the point of view of filling my core "tax".

April 19

I've been comparing WoC units to other factions, and I'm getting the distinct feeling that Chaos Warriors need a buff.

The most notable comparison is with Black Orcs, who are a point cheaper per model whilst coming with Full plate as standard, Furious Charge (getting Charges off might be hard, but this is big if you can), Choppas (better than Ensorcelled Weapons on the Charge, and better when using non-hand weapons) and Motley Crew (making it far easier to mix resilience with offensive output).
Bestigors are the same points as Chaos Warriors, and as long as their Champion is alive they only trade a point of Weapon Skill for a point of Movement (worth it imho). They come with Great Weapons as standard. Finally, Warband, Primal Fury and Blood Rage all combine for some nice offensive buffs.
Dwarfs have a number of veteran options which make for good comparisons with Chaos Warriors, but I'll focus on Longbeards as the least specialised of these (Ironbreakers are more of an anvil unit, and Hammers are more of a fighty unit). Longbeards lose a point of Movement and two points of Initiative in exchange for a point of Leadership, all for one point less than Chaos Warriors. Gromril Weapons are similar to Ensorcelled Weapons, and Veteran is similar to the Mark of Chaos Undivided, but they get Shieldwall and Venerable, and one unit can gain Drilled. Finally, they have a smaller base size.

There are other comparisons that can be made, but generally speaking it just feels like Chaos Warriors are a bit lacking when compared to similar units in other armies. It's hard to make them offensively effective without either giving them Frenzy, or severely hurting their defense, but for their price their defense is not that amazing either.

Personally I think I'd make the following changes to them:

Give them the option for Full Plate. Seriously, look at them, how are they not wearing Full Plate. Yes, this steps on the toes of Chosen, but Chosen get their 6+ Ward as well, so I think Full Plate is fine for Chaos Warriors. This also allows them to be very good in an anvil role (3+ save is no joke), or be more offensive without being too fragile.
Make them a point cheaper (12 points per model base).

I think these two would make them more competitive with other factions elite infantry. Thoughts?

April 18

1 hour ago, Ogregut said:

Also waiting for Issue 73 of the hattette magazine as they have 10 ardboyz for £9.99 and it's always good to keep the cost down!!

Is this 100% confirmed to be the new ones? If so I might have to grab a copy of I can add they are lovely minis.

April 17

35 minutes ago, Trokair said:

What about using the big AoS mounted lords as lords on chariot, they might not be able to join units that way, but you get a bigger base to try and fit them onto.

That's a possibility. Chariots have the unique property of being the only troop type immune to both Killing Blow and Monster Slaying, so make pretty decent mounts for independent characters.

I definitely plan to do this for the 40k Juggernaut (with a non-SM mount), as impact hits make so much sense for it.

April 17

4 minutes ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said:

I've never quite seen why people put those Diaz sculpts on such a pedestal. They were so tiny and delicate, I found them impossible to paint. And their poses were... odd. All on one leg. But that's just my opinion - I know hordes of people love them!

I think they had a certain elegance to them that matched the art from the time. Like you could imagine them dancing up to a unit of Empire state troops, being vaguely alluring enough to cause hesitation, then in sudden, elegant bursts of artistic violence murdering the distracted troops. The current (and previous) Daemonettes never captured that fur me: they just look horrific (not badly sculpted, horrific in the sense of causing horror).

The level of sculpting was also simply excellent by the standards of the time. Like the impression of ribs were just visible on they're chests. By modern standards that's pretty achievable, but remember Diaz was literally sculpting in greenstuff so what he was able to achieve at that scale was pretty amazing.

That said it is, ultimately, subjective. You're not wrong for not thinking they're excellent 🙂

April 17

2 hours ago, Sarouan said:

I think the role of hero on daemonic mount is more as a "solo missile" to deal with war machines, solo leaders or small units rather than leading a unit himself (chaos steed does the trick for that purpose). There are items that allow it to have a 2+ save but I don't think it's really necessary : the purpose is to give different targets to your opponent so that he can't shut them down all.

Oh yeah, from a purely gameplay perspective I think that's right. But I want to create me own homebrew Archaon leading his own homebrew Swords of Chaos 🙁

April 17

6 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

This makes me wish for new demonettes sculpts.

If they channeled the spirit of Juan Diaz' metal daemonettes (minus the nudity, since I don't think GW would get away with that) in a modern plastic kit I'd buy... all of them?

April 17

What are people's thoughts on the Daemonic Mount? I absolutely love the AoS lord on Daemonic Mount mini, and to me Daemonic Mounts are the quintessential Chaos Mount. Something about the fact that it's an actual Daemon, likely gifted by the Chaos Gods to their mortal Champion, or perhaps won in a battle of wills, just feels narratively right. Plus let's be honest, we all kinda want our Chaos Lord to be this guy

But GW have made it hard to love them. The first issue is that during them in a 40x60mm base is a squeeze. It can be done, but they do look a little cramped. 50x75mm is fine, but then they don't rank up nicely with knights, and that upsets my sense of aesthetics.

Adding to that is that in the latest FAQs Chaos Steeds were given First Charge, allowing a unit of Chaos Knights lead by a character on one to use the ability. Daemonic Mounts do not have that rule, which makes them much less appealing in that role.

You also lose Barding, meaning your Chaos Lord can't (easily) reach a 2+ Save.

In exchange what do you get? A significantly better attack profile (WS 4 vs. 3, S 5 vs. 4, 2 attacks, Armour Bane 1, Magical Attacks and 1 Stomp Attack), one extra Move (useless in the leading Chaos Knights role), and an extra wound.

To me it just feels like Chaos Steeds are the better option in most cases, at least for Lords. I could perhaps see Sorcerer Lords benefiting from a Daemonic Mount, but if I had the points I'd probably prefer a Manticore for flying.

April 17

23 hours ago, Sarouan said:

It should work. They also released the old metal giant miniature, which is also much smaller than the plastic giant. It's really a question of what you like best.

Yeah, I think size wise he's fine compared to infantry etc., it's just that if you have him in the same army as things like Ogroid Theridons (representing Chaos Ogres or Minotaurs or whatever) I feel like he might not feel gigantic enough.

The same is obviously true of the metal giant when compared to, for example, Rockgut Troggoths in O&G.

April 16

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

From a business stand point, its also bot a bad thing having an army in more then one system

If I was the head of AoS I'd be incredibly keen to see the old Skaven minis officially return to TOW, knowing that a lot of people will but new AoS sculpts and boost my team's sales.

April 16

1 minute ago, Ejecutor said:

Nah. That's the only no-no from GW's. They even reference it in the core book.

Yup. They aren't going to rush messing up the story that established AoS.

April 15

Completely unrelated to the Darkoath box: thoughts on using the Fomoroid Crusher as a Chaos Giant? Is he big enough? I get the feeling he's similar size to the 6th edition metal O&G giant, but the question then becomes "is that really big enough" in today's world of much larger GW minis.

April 15

4 hours ago, Sarouan said:

Marauders are cool, but they really overdid it with the dynamic poses IMHO. Even with 25mm bases, some of their models will align / look a bit awkwardly in close order formation.

Yeah that's my concern. I'm just not sure they'll look that good ranked up. To be honest I'm not sure they look that good even in AoS: they're maybe a but too over the top.

4 hours ago, Sarouan said:

Cavalry should be easier with 30x60 mm.

Huh, I assumed Marauder Horsemen would be on 25x50mm bases. Tell be absolutely fine on 30x60mm.

4 hours ago, Sarouan said:

Spawn looks quite big, not sure he'll fit on a 50mm square base.

Assuming the Marauder Horsemen are on the same size bases as Freeguild Cavaliers (which seems likely), is day he's on a 60mm round base. Might be a tight squeeze, but I reckon he'll probably go on a 50mm square.

4 hours ago, Sarouan said:

Otherwise, I'm actually thinking he would look great as a Daemon Prince.

That's also true though. Nice idea.

4 hours ago, Sarouan said:

The hero, you can play it as aspiring champion IMHO. If you convert him a bit (like adding a helm, some mutation that look more "armory"), he would easily count as wearing heavy armor. Maybe not equip it too "armory" in terms of list options like the other warriors of chaos in your army, so that it doesn't get too confusing.

Huh, I assumed all Chaos Champions came with Full Plate as standard, but it's only the Lord that does. Yeah, I think he could be a decent Aspiring Champion.

I also like @Trokair's suggestion of a sorcerer. Give him some sort of staff and he'll look the part.

April 15

6 hours ago, Sarouan said:

Be ready to get all the old Chaos kits, for they are all coming back. Yes, even the forsaken.

I didn't realize they ever made a Forsaken kit. Just looked it up: whilst it's not great, I think it'll be good as a source of conversion bits for my own Forsaken, so good.

6 hours ago, Sarouan said:

Basically, if a unit can be found in AoS and TOW, it will automatically be the old Battle kit, never the new AoS one. That's pretty much their stance on TOW so far.

I don't know. Ironbreakers/drakes, Hammerers/Longboards and Gyrocopters/bombers are all AoS kits yet are getting included in TOW. I guess it might be a sign that they will be cut in the next CoS book.

12 minutes ago, Gotz said:

😂

but warriors and chosen have options for great weapons and halberds. And the old warriors don't have the great weapons or halberds, and chosen halberds I think were an upgrade sprue.

Warriors got great weapons and halberds as a separate upgrade pack, and I think you could build both two hand weapons and hand weapons and shields on the base kit, so all options should be doable.

I think Chosen will require conversions, as the old models were metal/resin who seem only to have come with great weapons.

Not sure how easy the new plastic Chosen will be to give different weapon options (their poses are probably quite great weapons specific).

12 minutes ago, Gotz said:

let's see how they handle all the equipment quirks of the rest of the armies.

I get the feeling we'll be expected to do some conversion/kit bashing, at least in the short term. We'll see though.

April 15

What are people's thoughts on the Darkoath box? Good Marauder and Spawn proxies or no? Does the Chieftain in horse have use as anything (he is somewhat lacking in armor to be wearing Chaos Armour, but he looks good)?

April 14

6 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

Darkoath is part of DB6, so they would all come together.

Apparently not 😮

April 14

Very nice! I think he fits in well with TOW High Elves. As an aside, I really hope we get those Lothern Seaguard re-released. They are so much nicer than the old 6th edition Spear and Bow elves.

April 14

Yeah, I don't buy it. The Throne of Chaos campaign is not contemporary to The Old World. I guess it may happen eventually, but I'm not counting on it.

April 14

44 minutes ago, Ookami said:

It’s either DB 6 or Dwarves in TOW.

Or Darkoath maybe?

April 13

3 hours ago, Tonhel said:

That could certainly be the case as the O&G doesn't have a great battalion, compared to the two before and the one that the dwarfes will get.

Yeah, that's my first thought. All the kits in the O&G Battalion are old even by TOW standards (all are from early 6th edition). Meanwhile the Dwarf on its a mix of later 6th edition sculpts (the Dwarf Warriors and the Quarrellers) and 8th (the two Gyrocopter/bombers).

I couldn't see myself ever using those old O&G sculpts, but the Dwarfs are fine by me, especially when I can also be taking the (also 8th edition?) Ironbreaker and Hammerer kits in my army and the new plastic Shield Bearer kit. So I expect the Dwarf release to sell better.

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