Havelocke

It seems like nobody else agrees with my hot take, so I might just have to accept that I'm just seeing a contradiction that isn't actually there. That said, I'm gonna take another stab at explaining where I see there to be ambiguity. The core problem with interpreting the rules as currently written is that it is never explained anywhere in the rules what "in range" means with respect to command abilities, or even what the range of a command ability is. I can already hear people disagreeing with this. Bear with me for a moment. Agreed. We're on the same page here. So here, maybe, is our definition of what "range" means. We'll call it "issuing range". It's important to note, though, that the word "range" does not appear in the text of rule 6.0 or rule 6.1. Assuming that these distances are the "range" of command abilities is a reasonable inference, but it just isn't stated on the page. And here, maybe, is our other definition of what "range" means. We'll call this one, as you dubbed it, "range of effect". If the "range" of a command ability is the latter distance, which you called "range of effect," then I would agree with this. This would mean, however, that the distances outlined in 6.1 are not the range of a command ability, and Kurnoth Hunters could no longer receive Call to Battle buffs anywhere on the table. In short, I don't think that the single phrase "in range of a command ability" can mean both the "issuing range" and the "range of effect" at once, and I don't think it's clear which type of range it refers to.

I am a known Alarielle believer, but I definitely will admit that her warscroll presents a substantial whiff chance. On her raw warscroll, without any buffs, she'll deal no damage to a 4+ save about 3.5% of the time. That goes up to about 8.5% against a 3+ and about 18% against a 2+ I think running her in Gnarlroot for the innate re-roll ones will be very popular for this reason.

That doesn't shock me. Abhorrent Ghoul King on Royal Terrorgheist is one of the premiere hammer units in the game, and just got access to new toys. That said, I did some number-crunching and IF Alarielle can get her roar off to deny Feeding Frenzy, she's actually got a pretty decent chance of surviving. You play way more than I do, but my schedule's opening up, and my FLGS has started opening up their tables again. I'll be sure to share some batreps when I get some games in!

I think there's some merit to this idea. If you charge an enemy with a unit of Kurnoths and a small unit of Spites, then attack first with the Kurnoths, you give your opponent a poor choice for their allocating their attacks. If they put their attacks on the Kurnoths, they're allowing the spites to attack at full strength, and allowing their debuff to survive. If they attack the spites, that's protecting the Kurnoths for their first round of combat before they sprout their branches. If they split their attacks, they risk mis-allocating their resources. Not game breaking, but potentially useful.

Alright. I'll try to explain why I think this might not be the case. As I see it, it's not possible for a command ability to work this way in the new core rules. Take a look at what 6.1 states: To use a command ability, you must spend 1 command point, pick 1 friendly model to issue the command, and pick 1 friendly unit to receive the command. So in order for the aura to continue to function as intended, either an exception needs to be written in that lets more than one unit receive the command, or it needs to be clarified that the command is being issued to the Ancient, and the resulting aura is itself the benefit of the command ability. This, then, raises the question about how Envoys of the Everqueen interacts with the new Command Ability system. Envoys states that: If a friendly Sylvaneth Hero uses a command ability, friendly Sylvaneth units wholly within 12" are treated as being in range of that command ability. This is an ambiguous rule, because it is no longer clear what the "range" of a command ability is. We have the range between the issuing unit and the receiving unit, and we also have the area of effect range that exists after a command ability has been issued. These are no longer the same game effect, and so I don't think that the single phrase 'in range' can apply to both. I fully expect this to get clarified in an FAQ, but I think it's extremely ambiguous at the moment according to the exact wording of the rules.

You get the eternal optimist merit badge for sure, Mirage. I'm not sure, but it's not gonna stop me from trying them. I'm actually going to run them in Gnarlroot, first. If they're supported by Drycha, they've got the same buffs as they do in Dreadwood, and I think they synergize well with a magic-heavy army, since they want to get all those endless spells off. Tragically, flaming weapons has to target one of the caster's melee weapons. That would have been an insane combo, otherwise. Yeah, I'm already rethinking my position on the Ancient. He's a swiss army knife. I'm curious to see exactly how his aura works with the new command ability rules. Do all units within 12" receive a command, for example, and does it work with Envoys of the Everqueen or not? (I don't think it's a given. I love it! You always fuel good discussion. 😉

This same wording is used in a bunch of Sylvaneth teleport effects. I'm hoping they FAQ this, since not teleporting out of combat kinda matters.

Unit warscrolls, glades, artefacts, and spells are all still relevant pieces of the current battletome, but all of that information is also easily findable on list building apps and around the web. It's also missing the three warscrolls currently only available in BR:Kragnos. It really comes down to whether or not you like having a physical reference for your hobby. I tend to buy the books because I like sitting down with a big stack of references and feel like a wizard. Not everybody cares about that. It is also entirely possible that the book will be replaced at some point in the next year. You should ask yourself if you'll have buyers remorse, should that happen. "Buy it if you want it" feels a little dismissive, but that's kinda what it comes down to.

Copy/pasting my unit by unit breakdown of the Sylvaneth changes from our faction discussion thread. Overall, I feel like Sylvaneth got more or less standard points increases, while really benefiting from a number of changes to the core rules. I don't think they'll be breaking into the upper echelons of the meta any time soon, but I think that they might find their way out of the basement in third edition.

Alternatively, this is very good for you, if it's a sign of things to come...

I agree, and I am similarly crushed. I started my Sylvaneth collection with Drycha and a bunch of Spites, and they continue to be some of my favorite units in the army. It's especially frustrating because I feel like, prior to these new rules, they were actually very close to being relevant. If Drycha's Spitegrove had stuck around, I think Spite Rev hammers could have been a thing. (Maybe not a totally optimal thing, but still a usable thing.) @Pennydude made an interesting point back on page 189. Rule 27.3.1 states that Enhancements cannot be given to unique units. This particular phrasing is repeated in 27.3.2 and 27.3.3 for traits and artefacts, but not in 27.3.4 or 27.3.5 for spells and prayers. These are known, rather than given. This interpretation could be debated, but I think it's solid, given that it mirrors second edition and most likely the intent of the designers. (Also, I love having indexed rules to reference now!) After spending some more time toying around with lists, I think you might be right. Something I didn't account for is that, with points going up and fewer models in lists overall, versatility becomes a bit more important. The Ancient loses big to the Warsong in casting potency and mobility, but it edges out the warsong in ranged damage and unbracketed melee damage. On top of that, it adds the stomp, the free woods, and the free teleport for utility. In some lists that want woods but don't care as much about magic, Dreadwood comes to mind, I can definitely see a strong argument for including the Ancient over the Warsong.

Sadly, Roar only lasts through the combat phase, so it can't shut down inspiring presence.

Okay gang. Now that we've got the points, I've compiled all of my thoughts on how our units will fare in the new edition. I tried to consider past performance, new points,and the new rules set when casting judgement. I gave this far less thought than I could have, so please feel free to pick it apart and tell me where you think I'm wrong! HAVELOCKE'S SYLVANETH WINNERS AND LOSERS FOR THIRD EDITION - SNAP JUDGEMENT EDITION Alarielle - 740 (+0) Small Winner. Better than she was post Kragnos, by virtue of most other stuff going up. She still doesn't compare favorably to Morathi, but she's the same cost as Teclis now. If you wanted to, you could even argue she went down in points, since the value of her summon went up. I can't say she'll be a top-tier choice, but I think you can make her work in a list. Drycha Hamadreth - 330 (+30) Big Winner. Drycha loves the new rules. The new command abilities, heroic actions, and rampages, all help her do exactly what she wants to be doing. Her points increase is on par with what we're seeing in most other factions. She takes a small hit due to Spite Revenants being less viable, but let's be honest. That's not why you were taking her. Warsong Revenant - 275 (+0) Small Winner. Like Alarielle, was clearly pre-pointed with third in mind. I see the Warsong as competing with the Treelord Ancient for the 'durable second rank caster' role in the army, and I think the Warsong comes out ahead with the extra cast, casting bonus, and fly. Arch-Revenant - 105 (+5) It's a wash. From what I've seen, most heroes are going up by about 10. Skating in under the curve is nice. I think the Arch-Revenant loses relevance, though, due to the fact that Kurnoths got hit rather hard, and due to the rules changes, which hurt her command ability. Branchwraith - 95 (+15) Big Loser. Fifteen points is a larger price increase than we've seen on a lot of foot heroes, and she didn't gain much from the new rules in any way. While I expect her to continue to be a staple due to the power of her warscroll spell, I think she's seen a downgrade to her competitive power. I suspect we'll see two of them less frequently now. Branchwych - 90 (+10) Small Loser. Compared to the Branchwraith, the Branchwych is a bit more likely to care about the heroic actions, or about counting as two models on objectives. That said, I can't see you ever taking her unless you desperately need another cast and have exactly 90 points to spare. (Read: Never) Spirit of Durthu - 340 (+40) Small Winner. Durthu is primed to take advantage of the new rules, and he especially loves Heroic Recovery to unbracket him. Still, he got hit harder than some other units by points hikes, and still requires resource investment to work. I don't see myself taking Durthu over Drycha unless I'm building my list around him. Treelord Ancient - 295 (+35) The Biggest Loser. The Treelord Ancient saw an increase in points, while also being outclassed by new competition for its primary role in the army. The ancient benefits from the new rampages and heroic actions, and the improvements to wyldwoods indirectly benefited its warscroll spell, but there's a better alternative for just about everything the Ancient does. I suspect the Ancient will occasionally appear in lists to take advantage of its free wyldwood, but iI think it will be replaced by a Warsong, Treelord, or Durthu in most cases. Dryads - 95 (-5) Big Winner. While Dryads lost their horde discount, they gained about half of it back, and units of 20 are now ten points cheaper. On top of that, they synergize well with the new rules. Having multiple buffs on their warscroll softens the blow of the cap on command abilities, and their reach lessens the impact of the coherency changes. I expect to see one or two blocks in most competitive lists, moving forward. Spite Revenants - 70 (+10) Big Loser. The rules change did them no favors, and they got the only points hike among our battleline on top of it. I have a hard time envisioning them as competitive choices without some changes. Tree Revenants - 80 (+0) Big Winner. Tree Revenants were already competitive, and they didn't see any points increases while most other units did. I expect that small units will continue to be a mainstay of the army moving forward. Treelord - 190 (+10) The Biggest Winner? One of my two contenders for most improved warscroll in the new edition. The treelord gained access to rampages, now counts as five models on objectives, saw a modest points hike compared to the field, and their primary competition in list building got hit harder than they did. I suspect that some lists will try running a treelord alongside six scythes instead of three swords. I think Kurnoth Hunters really like the changes to the universal command abilities, and counting as extra models on objectives is nice. That said, not having access to heroic actions or rampages closes the gap a bit between them and some of the other heavy hitters in our book. This large of a points increase definitely hurts them. Kurnoth Hunters with Swords - 225 (+35) Small Loser. See above, and... swords will still probably be the go-to choice for three man units, but I think we'll see fewer of them in the new edition. Kurnoth Hunters with Bows - 225 (+35) Big Loser. See above, and... if they were going to make the weapon options cost different amount, I don't know why they didn't reduce the cost of bows. The new command abilities help them more than the other loadouts, but bows were already the weakest option on Kurnoths. Outside of fools who love them (like me!), I don't think we'll see a ton of them until they get changed. Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes - 215 (+25) It's a wash. See above, and... if you were ever going to make an argument in favor of six swords over six scythes, the new edition made it a lot harder. While Kurnoths as a whole got weaker, scythes got stronger relative to other Kurnoths. I expect a unit of six scythe hunters to continue to be our premiere hammer unit moving forward. Ylthari - 150 (-30) Small winner. Still not playable, but she hurts your army by thirty fewer points. Skaeth's Wild Hunt - 110 (-10) It's a wash. Less attractive in the new rules, where you're probably less interested in paying for a non-hero caster. It's not like the unit was viable before, though. Spiteswarm Hive - 40 (-10) The Biggest Winner? My other contender for most improved warscroll. The spiteswarm hive was already an integral part of some competitive lists, and a boon to almost any list. And it got cheaper. I've been pretty conservative with my predictions so far, but I'll go out on a limb and say that, barring a rewrite of its warscroll, I expect the Spiteswarm Hive to be a borderline auto-include in the new edition. Gladewyrm - 60 (+30) Small Winner. While the Gladewyrm got hit with a pretty big points increase, the ability to maintain control and keep the Gladewyrm in the middle of a big scrum is a huge boon to the model. I'm definitely going to try it. Vengeful Skullroot - 85 (+45) Small Winner. The biggest boon to the Skullroot is the changes to the Wyldwood, which makes it much easier to summon woods within three inches of an enemy unit, and then combo the Skullroot on the same turn. The big points cost is a little harder to stomach, but it's got a low casting value and D6 mortals to multiple units is potentially very potent. Whew.

Of course it's alright! Your first two questions are hard to answer at the moment, though, as we still don't know what the point values will be in the new edition. Durthu has been helped out by the new heroic action and monstrous rampage rules. Particularly the healing action which has the potential to unbracket him before a crucial charge. He's also helped indirectly by the new wyldwoods (more on that in a moment). That said, he's still not quite at the level he was when he had realm artefacts available to him. Points will matter here. For your second treelord build, I would highly recommend that you wait a month or so before making a decision, if gameplay viability is a concern. Points will matter here, too. The ancient has historically been the more competitive choice, but the ancient has been challenged for the durable caster role by the new warsong revenant, and the Treelord might benefit more from the rampage rules than the Ancient will. If you're feeling adventurous, Treelords are pretty easy to magnetize, so you can switch between the weapon options. Finally, we haven't seen a ton of games with the new wyldwoods rules (I haven't managed to get any games in yet, myself), but early reports are promising. The onto reports I've seen suggest that the new rules are a huge improvement to their placeability.

I don't think so, and @Pennydude doesn't think so, but @Mirage8112 seems to think they can, so he might have seen something we didn't. That being said, one model can definitely offer cover against shooting attacks.

It's almost definitely a good thing, it's just also a good thing that makes me sad. It was a fun theory-crafting and list-building piece, but the balewind vortex was something that, almost as a rule, was not taken unless it did something broken. I think @Walkirriox was pointing out that one of the conditions for being behind terrain is being more than 3" from your attacker, so behind will never offer you a save bonus in the combat phase. Wholly within still can. I read what you said on the previous page, which you referenced here, and I'm not sure I follow. Can you elaborate? My initial read on the rule is that since it says the imaginary line must pass across more than 3" of an Awakened Wyldwood, the Wyldwood needs to be at least 3" thick to block line of sight along a given path.

I think it's a bummer, but not particularly surprising. The balewind vortex was used almost exclusively to create death star units, which is something that they are clearly trying to avoid in the new edition.

I come down on the other side, in terms of what the rules actually say, but I totally respect this position. I also think it's probably what the designers intended. Certainly no need to beat it to death when there's so much other new stuff going on!

Teleporting itself isn't a normal move, but our teleport rules still need it to be possible. Navigate Realmroots, Spirit Paths, and Waypipes all contain the phrase "instead of making a normal move" as a requirement for activation. If a model can't make a normal move, it can't use an ability that requires it. Sinister Ambush is unaffected, though. This could probably get FAQ'd. I believe that the intent behind the clause is to prevent models from moving after teleporting, which is what it did in the old core rules. Just an unintended side effect of a structural change.

Core battalions cost no points, but also offer no benefit except those listed on the graphic. No artifact. No CP. No one-drop deployment. The Warlord battalion gives a CP and an artefact, but no one-drop, while the Battle Regiment battalion gives one-drop, but nothing else.

I'm on the same page as you about the issuing model also being the receiving model, but I wouldn't apply the resulting aura to Kurnoths through Envoys of the Everqueen. It's not going to be conclusive either way without an FAQ, but if the aura can take effect on a unit without that unit receiving a command, I don't think the effect is a command ability and therefore doesn't qualify for envoys. Good call out. I didn't catch that distinction. It's a very small detail, but it's one that lets you play the rule the way it's obviously intended.

And yet we're also told that choosing one unit to receive is a part of the activation process, and therefore necessary. We really need an FAQ on that one. I think the likeliest outcome will be that the receiving unit is the one issuing the command, and benefit of the CA is the aura itself, not the buff it provides. On the subject of needing FAQ's, the nice folks over in the new rules discussion have noted that, pending a clarification, unique characters cannot be given spell lores. They were rolled into 'enhancements' without an exception, and all enhancements are barred from unique characters. This will certainly be changed, but it's worth noting.

Now that we've seen the full rules for command abilities, it seems like @Pennydude's assumption about stacking command abilities is correct. Beyond that, I'm somewhat disappointed to see that multi-target command abilities, like Ghyran's Wrath and Shield the Arcane, are not addressed. One interpretation would be that, as the core rules very explicitly state that each command ability must be received by one unit, these multi-target abilities now function as single target abilities. Other possible interpretations include each unit within the radius receiving the command, or the command being received by the user of the ability. On top of all of the above, you still have to make inferences about what it means to receive a command. The intent is very clear, but that doesn't change the fact that none of the existing faction CA's include the new nomenclature, and the rules don't tell you how to interpret a command ability that lacks the wording. Feels like an oversight in a set of rules that has otherwise been pretty good about eliminating ambiguity. This is also a big change for the Sylvaneth. Previously, runs and retreats were still considered to be normal moves. This means that, since a unit within 3" cannot make a normal move, we are no longer able to teleport out of combat.

True. They also contradict that in the StD article, when they say that Knights of Chaos Chaos can be combined with All-Out Defence because they're activated in different phases. In both cases, we're essentially looking at marketing copy, rather than the actual rules. I'm witholding judgment until I see the actual rules text.

No huge revelations in our faction focus article this morning, but some good call-outs, I think. If area effect command abilities like Ghyran's Wrath or Shield the Arcane get their buffs out without requiring a unit to receive the command, and therefore without counting against the unit's limit on command abilities, they could see a hefty boost in their utility. Our tome also has about a million ways to hand out 're-roll ones' to our units, and those abilities also become better in a world where All-Out Attack, All-Out Defence, and other abilities buff the dice instead of granting their own re-rolls, which allows our re-roll abilities to have synergy with the core command abilities, instead of overlapping. What was your opponent playing @Abstract_duck? It sounds like you got a bit unlucky to not get it off until turn three, and would normally be more reliable, but it's also a pretty disruptable combo, offering multiple chances to unbind.