Leshoyadut

Yeah. Even as a big skeleton lover, I am genuinely struggling to see them work well in this. The potential for opponents to get an extra damage per swing into them absolutely demolishes their main way of tanking: sheer wound count. Obviously zombies got you more wounds per point out of the base count, but skeletons were a bit more healable between their ability and actually having a save. Enemy units doing easily 50-100% more damage against them kinda...sucks. A lot. Deathrattle kingdoms are in shambles right now, and given that was my favorite way to play SBG, I may just be playing DoK for the next six months.

To me, it's not the rend that's the good part of the Gladiatrix, especially since a friend I play against regularly runs Nighthaunt. It's changing the To Wound to 3+, which is 1/3 more of my hits actually wounding. Combined with having a 2+ To Hit and exploding 6s to hit (Catechism of Murder or All Out Slaughter), that's a big damage boost. Any additional rend on that is icing on the cake. Assuming you're on 2+/3+/0/1 before the Gladiatrix (not that hard to do, especially in Hagg Nar), a Gladiatrix nearly doubles your damage into 3+ saves, and is only a little shy of tripling it into 2+ saves (assuming they don't have even more save bonuses to negate your rend). Even if they do ignore your rend (either Nighthaunt or 2+ saves with another +1 floating), you're still adding about 25% damage just from getting to 2+ To Wound. This image assumes 20 WAs get in to attack, which I have found pretty consistent to do. The Gladiatrix adds a ton of damage to your attacks and I think you're missing out if you don't have at least one while using WAs. Worst case scenario, 90 points for +25% damage seems pretty deece.

Correct, it is only at the start of turn one that you claim objectives that you are standing on at the beginning of the round. For everything after, you only claim it at the end of turn as @EnixLHQ said.

I think your list looks like a good place to start for that, though it looks like you have five reinforcements there. You could honestly break the GG into two units of 10 and still be fine. They won't have as much alpha strike, of course, but 10 is still enough to do some real damage and you could split them up in combats if you wanted. You even have room for one more troop unit in your Battle Regiment, so it wouldn't increase your drops to do so.

I rather enjoy my horde lists, personally, they're just not quite as horde-y as they were in the past. Amusingly, I think Daughters of Khaine are the top horde army with the free reinforcements out of Draichi Ganeth letting you plop 110 elves onto the board (plus heroes). But I've done a couple horde lists in SBG with 30 skellies and 30 Grave Guard. This one is probably my favorite from testing, though I have a couple of similar lists. Has 94 bodies and 139 wounds. Very grindy playstyle, and has even done pretty well into a couple of shooting lists I've played into with the sheer mass of bones I can throw at them. The Skeletons+Necromancer combo has ground down a Megaboss on Mawcrusha a couple times just because they don't die, which is nicely points positive for me. The GG with a Vampire Lord for support can even reasonably one-shot a gargant now that they only have a 6++ ward. Have to get all 30 of them in to make it more consistent, but that's a lot more doable with the 6" pile-in from the Wight King's CT. Against anything short of that, they just absolutely delete enemy units. Outside of that, Neferata provides great mobile support, you have lots of healing for your various summonable units with everything being a wizard for any Invigorating Auras you want, plenty of other wizardly buffs and debuffs, some mobility and staying power from the Blood Knights, a nice mobile wall out of the grave with the wolves, etc. It just has a lot of options while playing a grindy game that I enjoy a lot. I think SBG is, these days, a mixed hammer and anvil list. You want some horde and some semi-elite stuff. But you can lean more into one or the other depending on your preference and subfaction. The army definitely has a fair bit of variety, though, so neither horde nor elite are entirely required to do well. As for your example Kastelai list, I think it looks fine, but I'm not super familiar with the nuances of Kastelai as I mostly brew and play Legion of Blood (Neferata for un-life). Kastelai can definitely make Blood Knights more of a hammer. I've even seen a few folks go all in on Oops, All Blood Knights with 5 or 6 units of them in Kastelai given the bonuses they can get, though I'm not sure how those turned out (especially post-nerfs on Nagash).

Yeah. They can definitely do some good damage, but they kinda almost feel like a hybrid between anvil and hammer. They're durable, but not super tanky; they're damaging, but won't delete things. They're just kinda...always good, regardless of what you need more of in your army. I love them for that. If you have the points left over after the core units for your army, throwing a unit or two of Blood Knights never feels like a bad idea. I feel that hard. 😂 I was playing DoK against a friend recently, and piled in a buffed 30 block of Witch Aelves (got 22 in) against their Black Coach. Landed 41 of my attacks into a 4+/4++ and did 5 damage, literally half of the average I should have gotten out of that. It hurts every time.

That does seem like a good amount. I will warn that the blood knights are not nearly as much of a hammer as you may expect; they're great at wearing an enemy down, staying in the fight, and retreat+charging to keep their damage up, but they won't delete enemies. They do good damage still, but not as much as you may hope; just keep your expectations of them realistic. The GG and VLoZD are great hammers, though, and the VL is great for buffing. I'd keep the Necromancer more for the skeletons than the GG, myself, but mostly because the GG will either kill their target or take significant losses before their second activation (they only have a 5+/6++, after all). Vanhel's is hardly worthless on GG, but if your skeletons are in combat with something deadly, I'd generally (but not always; specific circumstances can always change things) prioritize them first.

There was, indeed, a misunderstanding! I shouldn't reply when tired, I suppose, haha. I don't think you need two blocks of 30 skeletons, either, though. That, in my opinion, quickly leads to having your army be too passive. Having 20-25% of your army solely devoted to holding an objective all game (such as, say, a 30 block of skeletons, a necromancer and a corpse cart) is certainly worth it. However, I'd be wary of devoting more than that to such a passive, defensive play, since you really can't guarantee being able to sit on more than one objective like that. Having done multiple blocks of 30 skeletons, I found my army lacking in offense when I did so. On the other hand, I will say that if you really do want big blocks of skeletons, having MSUs of GG is often enough because of just how killy they are with greatweapons. Give them AOA or a CA from a vampire lord, and they absolutely shred.

I wouldn't go for a 20 block of dire wolves, anyways. MSU dire wolves still give you 20 highly mobile wounds for 135 points, which is pretty solid. Plus, while I'm not as worried about the coherency issues as some people are (dire wolves aren't really there for damage, so not getting all of them in to attack isn't a big deal), 20 of them can still be really difficult to maneuver around terrain. A couple of my favorite battlelines in my lists are either 1) 1x30 skellies, 2x10 dire wolves, or 2) 1x30 skellies, 1x30 grave guard, 1x20 zombies, both of which give plenty of room for GG. Dire wolves make for chunky screens, which has its pros and cons, but they're excellent for zipping around and grabbing objectives or taking a big charge from something you don't want hitting your GG. I also typically go Legion of Blood, so I'm right there with you.

Personally, I've had good experiences with a unit of 30 skellies and a necromancer. It's about 400 points to hold an objective, but they've done well at that job. They're not invulnerable, especially if you run into shooting, but they do just fine at scoring a few easy points, and have baited a couple opponents into not getting battle tactics as the bones hold together better than they expected.

It didn't feel super worth it to use on my Avatars since they only have four attacks and wouldn't even get one exploding die on average. I was only finally getting my Cauldrons into combat in round 4 (which we didn't play out) just because either the fight was in a confined space I couldn't fit them in, or I had a gazillion WAs in the way of the Cauldrons fighting. But even then, they have 16 attacks and would get, on average, 2-3ish exploding dice per combat, which translates into maybe 1 extra hit after To Wound rolls. Certainly not bad, but not huge, either. For the WAs, I also had Catechism of Murder already. Could be a case for picking a different prayer, but it also gave me a backup in case I got two WA units into combat in the same turn, which ended up not really happening. Round 1, I got one unit of 10 in since they were screening for the 30 block, and the other 10 was just holding a back objective and preventing my opponent from snagging it with an Underworlds teleport. Round 2, the first unit of 10 was dead and I had Catechism on the 30; the second unit of 10 was still preventing Underworlds shenanigans. Round 3, I could have used it on the back objective 10, but they didn't really need it into the Hexwraiths they were engaged with and I forgot about using it there since 29 attacks (one died to the impact from the Hexwraiths) was a ton of damage already. So, AOS could have been useful once in that battle, likely once or twice more if we had played out all five rounds, but only after AOA wasn't useful, anyways, so I had points to spare by that time and wouldn't have needed the Warlord point by then.

Played a game with DoK today against new Nighthaunt, and managed a win with my aelves. My list was this: My opponent played a mix of buff heroes, plus a Black Coach, a unit of Chainghasts, two units of Hexwraiths and two units of Harridans, all MSUs. We played on Power Struggle. I won after round 3 when I had managed to get ahead on points through better positioning of my units over objectives, denying her from keeping more than one objective for two consecutive turns. I also left myself with some easy battle tactics left so that I wouldn't have an issue getting them in the last couple rounds, and she was running out of easy ones to do back given what was left on the board at that point. When I killed the Black Coach was the point where she conceded, given that her Hexwraiths were about to also die and the rest of her units were unfortunately balled up behind some rather large terrain pieces. Thoughts on my list: Outside of specific performance, I gotta say that the army is just fun. There's a little bit of strategy to consider, of course, but it's still a lot of fun to unga bunga some buffed WAs into an enemy unit and do 60+ attacks. The variety of units is also great. I was able to have some shooting, both long and short range, a couple of cool elite units, a sizable horde, and lots of buffs to go through in the hero phase. The army has enough going on without any of it being particularly complex that it felt like I always had something useful to do while also not feeling like I had to be gigabraining every turn. Appealed to the Timmy in me, appealed to the Spike in me, it was just a great time.

On the note of NH's objective game, I lost a game as Soulblight last Wednesday to a Nighthaunt player just because of NH's objective grabbing ability. Also because I was an idjit and missed my battle tactic twice because I tunnel visioned on killing things. But even without that, she was still solidly gaining an advantage in VPs just through her ability to grab and hold all of the objectives while my units were locked down in combats. If I had gotten all of my battle tactics, it still would have been 14 to 12 in her favor at the end of BR3 with her controlling all three points and poised for a double turn. Brutal game and I definitely need to change my strategy against NH in the future (also need to remember my battle tactics).

I do think it's worth noting that -2 to hit can still potentially be useful to cancel out a potential AOA or similar effect. Obviously, if you can, minuses to saves are much better, but getting more than one of the 4-7 charge effect isn't totally worthless.

19 wounds total for 220 points, plus the zombies can give Look Out, Sir! to the hero, everything has a 5+ ward, and Deintalos brings the zombies back every battleshock, which makes them reasonably tanky altogether. I also like that Deintalos gets wounds back just from wounds dealt and not from killing models. Overall, I agree and would generally rate it as "niche, but potentially useful".

Oh, for sure, it's heavily backloaded. But I think it can help swing a close game in the final couple turns, which is useful. So like I said, as long as the rest of it is decent (second ability, good CA, or what have you) and is reasonably priced, I think it could have some use in an army. Also, with it being so heavily backloaded, that means you could reasonably wait a turn or two to declare the target of it, leaving it off the field without sacrificing much of this particular ability.

While it's true that you may fail the roll, assuming you judge something turn one and roll for it every subsequent turn, you have a ~97% chance to get it off by the end of the game, assuming you're not tabled before the end of turn 5. That seems pretty reliable to go off, plus whatever else it may be able to provide to the army. As long as it's reasonably priced and this isn't all it does, this feels like a decent ability to me.

I didn't, actually. I specifically said "you have to screen for them". You can also have a block of 30 if you go with a WK general, which will on average survive with 13 left from a Fulminator charge given AOA on the Fulminators and a 5+/6++ save on the GG with no AOD or Mystic Shield. Invigorating Aura + Deathly Invocation gets you at least 4 back, but on average 5. Let's just assume 4. With just AOA on the GG and no AOD on the Fulminators since they just used AOA, themselves, you comfortably kill both in response. This is also true if you just use Deathly Invocation (average 2 back) on them and cast a different spell or IA doesn't go off, but you still get a VL command on them instead of AOA. If you get just Deathly Invocation (average 2 back) and AOA with no VL command ability, no Mystic Shield before the Fulminators charge, and no other spells benefiting the GG, you are also quite comfortably killing both with no AOD. Note also that all of these situations but the last one have the GG killing both Fulminators comfortably even if they have Mystic Shield or some other source of +1 save, and the final situation kills them on average, which is definitely not a guarantee, but still decent. Also keep in mind that the original 10 will also kill the Fulminators on average with AOA on the GG and no +1 save for the Fulminators, so even if the Fulminators do more than average damage and you get no regen on the GG, the GG still have a good shot in return. Now, again, the GG need screening if they're going to kill the Fulminators in anything less than a block of 30. Even if they are a block of 30, they need some protection from shooting if they're not being screened and taking the charge from the Fulminators. Hopefully, though, you have some other threats on the field that are taking some pressure off of your GG during all of this. Bats on the backline, some dire wolves either on the backline or taking a charge, a unit of 10 Skellies just taking a charge, heroes taking shooting instead of your GG, Blood Knights taking shots and/or charging in to tie things up before your GG get in, something.

10 Grave Guard with greatweapons will kill one, even if the Fulminators are All-Out Defensed, as long as the GG get at least All-Out Attack. More GG or a bigger buff (such as +1 attack from a Vampire Lord) practically guarantees one dead and can easily start getting close to killing both. Gotta screen for them, but GG are definitely nasty when they get in. This one is 10 with +1 attack from a VL.

Personally, I think Overwhelming Dread is probably the best one. It really hurts, and is easy to cast at only a 5+. Fading Vigor is pretty close, and I think situationally can cause more of an effect (such as lists with 30 models getting 2 attacks; FV halves their damage), but Overwhelming Dread seems useful in more situations where you really want to reduce incoming damage (stuff like megagargants). The others are all way too situational (at best) for me to want to pick them into an unknown/wide meta.

One small note that doesn't actually change much in this situation: Against monsters, they do not get re-roll 1s on stomp. They get re-rolls for grips vs. monsters, and stomps vs. non-monsters.

As sad as Nagash's fate in our army is, I'm actually kinda excited for the Coven Throne. Between the coordinated strike allegiance ability and the reduction in points, I think it actually has a (niche) place in our army at this point. Felt like it was pretty close to being good, it was just overcosted; now it's at least less overcosted, if at all.

For the Coven Throne idea, I was thinking something along the lines of this. I want to keep Neferata in because A) just got her recently for my birthday, and B) she's cool as heck, despite not being the most powerful hero. I figure the wolves are fast enough to gum things up and screen, the GG can both come out of the grave, and the Coven Throne and Neferata are both fast enough to get in range to support the GG easy enough. Honestly feels like the VL could almost sit in back, but within 30" of the enemy casters, just unbinding every round, and it'd still be worth the points because of that +2. Does a lot to make up for the Lore of Vampires being so bad.

As someone who loves Neferata and the Legion of Blood aesthetic, I, for one, am happy to see the allegiance traits coming my way.

Personally, if they're going to be making larger changes to Black Knights (big if), I'd actually rather they become a more kill-y cavalry option. We already have Blood Knights for a tanky option, and I think leaning into the Grave Guard (relatively squishy, but very high damage) on mounts thing would work well for adding a new option to the army. Adding some MWs to their attacks and/or buffing their to hit and wound rolls would be nice, though they'd need to be careful about giving more MWs on top of the impact hits.