LuminethMage

It's their thing, because they are a magic faction. I like it in a way because it makes them stand-out, feel like they have magical weapons, being pretty elite, without actually doing that much damage (they do very very good surgical damage though). But as you say, it has its drawbacks. It also depends against which factions you play, for some it can be really difficult because they don't have (m)any options against MW, and therefore it's not really fun, because a really large percent of the incoming damage will be just MW. If you are concerned about that, you can play a Hurakan/Alarith army, which has a very limited MW output. Or any mix with temple units and only a few Vanari/Scinari. Your MW output will just be average. You can do this actually much better now than before : ). I'm planing on a list like that to mix things up.

Fair. That's what I think will happen. I can imagine some people don't like it the first few times they encounter it, because it's new, they aren't prepared, and of course it isn't the the most fun of abilities for your opponent. But in the end, I just think it's not that big of a deal. In case of Teclis, you can autocast 4 spells (which are still unbindable, so it's not 100% guaranteed, if you don't go for 1 single spell), but you still roll for a bunch of other spells, and can't force any other important rolls during the game. I have played Teclis one time so far, because someone wanted to play against him to see how it is (and probably because he is nice, knows I have painted him, and wanted to give me a chance to field him). I found it fun, because it's different, but also stressful because of all the options. With the new units my main list won't include Teclis, but I might bring him from time to time for a different experience or if someone wants it. I'd be really interested how the match goes for you, if you find the time please let me know. Tzeentch against Teclis could also be fun for both sides I imagine. You might find his spell resistance more annoying, than all the auto-stuff : )

I agree that what the player base a whole thinks is more important, and I'm sure that will be an important factor in GW changing things or not. I might even like what they do with the Lumineth more if they changed them, who knows. I'm still baffled, really, because I do not see that kind of outrage otherwise. I know, some people find prayers also boring, and in a general debate about for example AoS 3 we might actually agree, to totally do away with auto-abilities. I'd be fine with that for example. Although I'm also not bothered by prayers or other auto-abilities for the reasons I mentioned above. You say it's a straw man, but this what this thread is about after all - that Lumineth (and from the posts I see, a lot is connected to Teclis) are singularly worse than others although those hoften have similar abilities, and therefore only Lumineth have to be changed to make the game fun again. This is not a thread about general gameplay experiences or how to improve things generally (with some exceptions). It's some people wanting to change how Lumineth function simply because they don't like them (for all kind of reasons, including how they function now). And seem to take for granted that that is more worth than what people who bought and play the army think. Because supposedly it's a large part of the player base. Our only difference is that is seems to me that you take most of the critique at face-value as a genuine frustration about the rules alone (because that's probably correct in your case), where I have my doubts there. @kahadin sorry about that : ). I don't think priests need to be changed anyway : ), I'm wholly agnostic on that matter. How do you feel about your LoC? They can guarantee one spell/dispel with destiny dice. Automatically (if you didn't roll terribly with all your destiny dice). With 9 dice, maybe more if you use most of them for that. Is that an NPE? Have you had many negative feeling voiced from opponents about that? (genuine question).

After I read a short summery of the content of BR Teclis, I stayed away from this thread on purpose. Looks like I made the right decision : ). I can understand that some people are unhappy. If it was the other way round, I'd very likely had a few bad days. I'm sure Nagash will be back before soon though. As many mentioned, that they really do things like that is good. One wonders what happens in the next book when Balakor has the same impact 😱 One of my personal favorite bits about this is, that one motivation of Teclis was to provide a good afterlife for everyone. I didn't really think about that important aspect of Nagash. That there are sometimes glimmers of hope in this setting is something which, for me, set's it positively apart from Fantasy and more so 40k. I'm sure the next two books will set things straight again :). And in terms of flavor text, this book contains one of the best written rules since a while: "Raging Outburst" for a Settler's Gain general. It's very relatable 😂

If auto-casting is such a problem (which you still can unbind, except if he uses one spell), why isn't there more outrage about priests? There is no interaction at all with their abilities. They get them or don't and that's that. Why do I see certain DoK players get all worked up about interactivity, when they have a lot of non-interactive abilities in their range? Why is not everyone else complaining about those? Why the focus on one model in one range? Generally speaking, why is there no outrage about other hero abilities which are all automatic abilities a hero get's and you can't do anything about most of them. A "spell" is just another label for an ability. Often spells do exactly the same thing as abilities, just have another flavor text. Why is there no outrage about run and charge abilities? Clearly they ignore an important core rule, and you can't do anything about them. Why not constantly complain about bravery shock immunity? Some ranges have them in every model. It's talked about from time to time, but I rarely see people getting too concerned up about this. I don't think, any of those are a problem, they contribute to the variety of the game, flavor, and sometimes make the player who has them feel powerful, which we all want. And sometimes they might make an opponent feel bad for a bit, or just aren't interactive. Not everything has to be. Teclis is one model in the range, and has one auto-unbind per turn. I'm honestly baffled how this can be such an issue. I can understand it won't win any awards for the most fun ability or something, but is this really such a problem? There are other auto-unbinds in the game, usually once per game. So Teclis, as a 660 model has 3 more per game, this really ruins the fun of the game? That one model in one range of around 24 possible factions you can meet has that one ability? There is really no fun in trying to win overcoming that? Luring the LRL player into mis-using it etc.? If it's really bothering someone that much, talk to your Lumineth opponent, if they have enough models, I'm sure they'll be happy to play without Teclis, at least some of the time. Many don't play with him at all. I don't think, some people having issues with it, are a valid reason for changing it. It doesn't seem OP so far. If Lumineth start dominating tournaments because of the way Teclis functions, then I think it would make more sense. It might be too strong (which is something at least somewhat objective), and it makes some players unhappy on top of it. Then GW better think about making some adjustments.

I had a discussion about this on the AoSCoach’s discord, with the rules people over there: and what they told me is that in this case: - because he is mentioned there as unique you can only have one of them in your army list. - because his description is lacking the “is a named character” part right now they can take artifacts. But this might change, because they might just have forgotten to add this to the description. I accepted this (because while strong he doesn’t seem OP with an artifact) at that time and also mentioned it to Siegried, but thinking about it, the core rules say that named characters can’t take artifacts and unique says only one in the army, so it could very well mean that a Loreseeker can’t take artifacts. I’ll send this in an question to the rules team. They could easily amend the core rules or the pitched battle profiles (just add “and can’t take artefacts” or “named character as per core rules page x”), to clarify this. Or don’t mention the “named part” in the profiles section if it only means just one per army.

@Azamar I especially like your Eltharion, really great colour scheme for that model! 🥰

That one has mild spoilers though. Nothing earth shattering, but they are in there, because he goes through all the narrative battle plans, which are somewhat revealing. Good review though : )

You could be right in terms of power level. But, I’d wait to see some actual lists. I agree the Lumineth have a lot of tools now - but it still might be hard to put everything into a list (which would be good). That’s again - generally speaking, not you - something I feel is a bit overblown, you won’t see Teclis, 40 Seninels, Severith, 20 Chargers and Avalenor in one list. The problem might actually be that some units aren’t good enough (Bladelords, Ballista) and in the end you’ll still see pretty much the same list as now, but that might be solved with point updates though in the future. A casual player has much more options though, and could make playing against the Lumineth more fun in the end for most people. It’s easier to build average lists now.

Facehammer! Has time stamps, and if you start with the Lumineth there are no spoilers at all, if I remember correctly. Also no salt. On pve of them must have worked through the night though, he’s almost gone at the end : )

It’s the latter.

It’s a joke : ). It also could just be that you personally don’t enjoy the direction of the game, while it becomes more popular generally. Stuff like that can happen. Or they turn around and change everything again next edition, who knows? And some of the stuff I like is gone. If you really feel bad about this, there is a dedicated thread about it already, many of us are just tired, because we are really excited about our new stuff : ). These might be our new painting schemes for the two new nations (bottom left and right): —————

Sounds good! Calligrave is cheap, so should be ok. Eltharion isn’t meta right now, but I know that’s not important for you. He is fun to play. And we must have the same friend : ) . Doesn’t even have something to do with Lumineth, it’s every single release, about 90% of the units.

Just a random post, no connection to any recent events whatever, but still might come in handy for some people - is my hunch ... Artist is: Butterylcarus.

Almost the same : ), I didn’t buy a 2nd Loreseeker, but will rectify this terrible mistake soon! : ). Otherwise I bought at least one of each.

Yeah we can get a bunch of CP but almost no abilities. My pre-orders are done : ). 😁

I’d wait for the FAQ first. @Evantas you can have a look at the official Warscroll on the New Zealand areas of GW website. Apparently cost 160 points.

Form their website:

Probably wait until everything is confirmed : ). It should be pretty good though, if you build something around it.

I didn't say everyone. I understand that they aren't fun for everyone. I get some of the arguments, for example what Yukishiro1 is saying. These issues are not black/white. There is a difference between Lumineth and DoK, Sylvaneth. Both of those didn't just get a bunch of new stuff. In fact, for a new battletome what DoK got is kinda meh in terms of models. There is far less envy involved because of that. Lumineth combine a lot of things: HE successor (some people are ticked off lone because of that), magic-centric army, lots of focus for a year now because of Covid, a whole bunch of new models, many rules, which make them look special in comparison to several other armies, some abilities people don't like etc.). It all comes together. I'm sure there are also people out there who have absolutely nothing against Lumineth as such and just don't like playing against them because of their rules. I doubt that's the majority though. I don't overall see that many posts about them to be honest, and often from the same people. I could point towards our Lumineth forum and tell you they must be one of the most popular armies and everything is fine, because hey, there are a lot of posts there saying this! You can see it here too, right in this thread - it's not like it's mass movement. Or over in the "rumour thread", around as many people got annoyed about the post on how annoying LRL are as there were posts about them being annoying. It probably depends where you hang out. I'm sure in some places you see a lot of negative comments. Having numbers, doesn't mean you have to be right. Especially not on the internet. Anyway we'll see. It's neither in your nor my hands. Maybe GW agrees and changes the LRL in several months down the road. This happened before. Maybe they don't and people just move on to the next big bad. I wouldn't get worked up so much about it. If you have Lumineth players locally, talk to them and see if you can work things out - so that hopefully everyone has fun.

Posts like this one are exactly why I think we have to take most of the critique with a grain of salt. Hyperbolic arguments, and in the end just a complaint that a certain strategy (20 berserker deathstar) doesn't work against Lumineth. If I was to play 3 x 10 Warden and 3 x 10 Sentinels and an Orruks army Smashes and Bashes me of the table in t1, can we please change that ability? It's really not fun for me. No interaction. Total NPE. I couldn't really play. And nothing I could have done about it. I'd rather play against Serpahon where I can have great tactical exchanges with their spell casters.

Yup, tomorrow we'll know for sure. For us though it's great, because our pre-orders are up before all those videos are on YouTube. I know we can look at the warscrolls but it's good to also get a bit of insight into the other rules before you buy the models.

Sent : )

Yup, I'm not on the same page with that. I believe that some people genuinely don't like playing against them. But, from a lot of the comments I see, I have the strong feeling that the person posting has likely never played against them and has ulterior motives. To answer your question why would I object to changing the rules to make it make it more fun for them? First of all, of course rules also play part of my fun. It's not totally detached from that. I love playing a magic-heavy army which has a lot of tricks. Then, there is the question - why should the feelings of my opponent being worth more than mine, they guy who bought the army knowing its rules and playstyle? I don't complain about your army, why should the rules of mine being changed, just because someone says they don't like them? Is that great? And if they change them to something they don't like again? Change them again? Or someone else doesn't like it now? What I'd do finstead is, not bring Teclis, see if they like a Alarith based list, which is more focused on melee, and doesn't have a lot of the stuff people might not like. Then, I still can play my favorite play style against other people who do not care about it - or even prefer it. I've been asked to bring Teclis, because someone wanted to play against him for example. To your Teclis/Lord of Change example: It wouldn't be an absolute travesty to re-work the rules so that Teclis would work more like a Lord of Change. And if they'd done that in the first place, it would have been ok, although pretty boring in my view. But, on the other hand: Teclis is a unique model, the God of Magic, and they gave him an ability no-one else has. That's great, when you play him, you really feel like you play with a God of Magic, something special, you forked out a lot of money for that model, so at least is should be a bit interesting. That's also something we want in the game, unique abilities for our models. The LoV has his own unique ability. Teclis ability also involves a bit of tactical thinking in some cases, although not that often. In that respect I think the rule could have been better, most of the time you take the 4 spells (which means most of the time it's not guaranteed, and you can try to dispel them). But the ability does provide unique tactics and challenges. It's different. In most cases you can still roll and try to dispel it, and likely with at least as good a chance as you'd have with a Lord of Change. So why do you even care that much? If I use Teclis to auto-cast one spell - that's such a negative experience for you? Really? Otherwise I have no change of influencing the outcome. I have to declare how many spells (which also sets the casting value in place) I cast at the start of the hero phase. I can't change it later. Also your comparison is a bit off, you should have compared this to the Destiny Dice - the things that make the LoV unique. And has the same effect btw. - to guarantee the outcome of what he does. And it's again very flavorful, the LoV knows the future, they can literally stack the dice in their favor. It's great! You also want to get rid of that ability? That's the only thing that counts - that your opponent under every circumstance has to roll a dice? Because that's most important thing for you? And because you have to suffer once every turn in case you have an opponent who plays Teclis, just because this apparently causes such a trauma - we have to change a unique ability? I rather have more variety and interesting abilities, even if I don't like all of them. Edit: The Slaanesh rework had also very much to do with the power level. And, have you seen the reactions to the re-work? Might still cause a lot of NPE, and is less fun for Slaanesh players. Is that really such a great example?

Some people - and as I said, I don't believe everyone, that's it's really just NPE caused by the abilities. That's exactly why NPE is such a problem. If I want, I could complain every day about all the NPE Sylvaneth have - fight last, can't target them, can teleport. What would you think? Or if I all of a sudden would start complaining about the NPE of say DoK or Idoneth (talk about rule-breaking abilities and interactivity ...)? Would you think that's my honest concern and that I'm a good representative of "the people"?